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Perhaps, and that is why I said that as long as MMOs continue to follow the same generally static paradigm I'm not really sure any of them will ever nail the "full" villain experience for everyone. At best we're always going to be stuck playing various degrees of rogue. |
Originally Posted by Arnabas
I do think it would be kind of cool to try and might be satisfying for the right character, but being able to continue playing the game with other characters as if nothing happened would kind of dilute even that.
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With absolute sincerity, lacking any sarcasm or sardonism: What would you have as a suitable "villainous victory" that could conceivably happen in a MMORPG (i.e. an on-going character-driven universe based on a positive linear progression)?
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
That's not what I'm asking at all, though I think you have the gist of it down. What I really want to see is more villainy. Every time our villains are about to take that final step into glory, some storyline-important NPC steps in and does one of the following:
-Sells you out, making you the fall guy -Laughs in your face and tells you you've just been doing his errands -Sits back down and says "and now we wait" It's not satisfying at all. Heroside, players get the satisfaction of stopping the bad guys and saving the day. Villainside, players get to be lackeys for bigger villains and, afterward, are politely told to go home and wait for the next opportunity. If we DO get that next opportunity, it's the contact going "ZOMG THERE'S SOMETHING HUGE AND EVIL, MORE EVIL THAN YOU AND I, YOU NEED TO GO TEAM UP WITH THE HEROES OR THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS GOING TO DIIIIIIE" and we get directed to the nearest co-op zone. |
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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It would really have to happen outside of Paragon, since you can't really take everyone else's pieces away in a game like this. Of course there's a thousand alternate dimensions out there waiting to be despoiled. Does the God-King of Earth 587 have diplomatic immunity? I don't know, but you could have a lot of fun finding out.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
With absolute sincerity, lacking any sarcasm or sardonism: What would you have as a suitable "villainous victory" that could conceivably happen in a MMORPG (i.e. an on-going character-driven universe based on a positive linear progression)?
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@Mindshadow
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That's because the default setting for the game world matches the major goals of the Heroes - if we log out with Paragon City in the same state as it was in when we logged in, then we've been successful.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
It's not satisfying at all. Heroside, players get the satisfaction of stopping the bad guys and saving the day. Villainside, players get to be lackeys for bigger villains and, afterward, are politely told to go home and wait for the next opportunity.
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Every single villain group in the game, from Tyrant and the loyalists down to the Skulls and the Hellions is trying to make the game world into a worse place - which would require some changes to the game on a small scale or a massive scale, depending on the size of the threat - which would also fragment the meta-storyline, adding even more work to the development process - so not only are we saving the world, we're also saving the devs a huge amount of unnecessary work
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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When you put it that way, I guess it balances out. Paragon City will never be peaceful thanks to the villains, but it won't crumble to dust for good thanks to the heroes.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's because the default setting for the game world matches the major goals of the Heroes - if we log out with Paragon City in the same state as it was in when we logged in, then we've been successful.
Every single villain group in the game, from Tyrant and the loyalists down to the Skulls and the Hellions is trying to make the game world into a worse place - which would require some changes to the game on a small scale or a massive scale, depending on the size of the threat - which would also fragment the meta-storyline, adding even more work to the development process - so not only are we saving the world, we're also saving the devs a huge amount of unnecessary work |
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
I knew that we'd be fighting Wade in the end, who really didn't see that coming? I have liked the SSA's red side, and I think that it at least set up better for villains. If we had started at Wade killed States and we have to stop him I would complain, but with the set up we're not going to save the world, or stop Wade. We're going to find him and feed him his own teeth Incarnate powers or not. Now if there's an option at the end, wherein the heros can only arrest him, let's say in memory of States and the Villains get the option to kill him, and I mean really kill him. I want the fight to stop, we talk to him and then we literally get to beat him to death as he pleads for mercy, no click Kill Wade in a text tree. And for good measure, make sure he keeps begging at timed intervals, so we can stop and let his health regen a bit, and let him cower, and then beat him some more. I would feel that as a satisfying villain end.
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Ha! Explaining that villains shouldn't get what they want out of this game because it saves the Devs a bunch of "unnecessary work" was especially hilarious, even for you. Promise us you'll never change GG. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's because the default setting for the game world matches the major goals of the Heroes - if we log out with Paragon City in the same state as it was in when we logged in, then we've been successful.
Every single villain group in the game, from Tyrant and the loyalists down to the Skulls and the Hellions is trying to make the game world into a worse place - which would require some changes to the game on a small scale or a massive scale, depending on the size of the threat - which would also fragment the meta-storyline, adding even more work to the development process - so not only are we saving the world, we're also saving the devs a huge amount of unnecessary work |
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'm getting sick of that argument too. What if my character can slip into the space-time continuum? What if my character's from an ALTERNATE universe? What if, instead of feeding us the same "But you'll die too" crap we've been getting since the Rikti invasion, the storywriters allowed villains more flexibility than just "do it because it's the right thing to do"? How about that?
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
If Supervillain A was going to push the red button to destroy the world, at least 4 of my characters would knock him aside and push the button themselves, laughing until the lights went out. |
You need to quit playing poor-quality characters that have no artistic value for a multiplayer experience.
The developers, first and foremost, are working on crafting a multiplayer experience. This means that the classic "World Devouring, Life Ending, Catastrophe causing" type villain doesn't work, and it's why the game never actually gives you the tools to be one. You just wind up making up ridiculous backstory and then complaining the game doesn't fold to what you've created.
Edit: Let me add, making this kind of character is fine, as a foil for other characters to try and overcome, and as a plot to be resolved. I have -one- myself, but I don't hold any kind of insane notion the character will ever get to "win" because the process of doing so is gamebreaking. If you're making a character like this for any reason other than to be a obstacle to eventually be overcome by other people, you're doing it wrong.
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Actually it's the limitations of the static MMO paradigm that -prevents- players from ever being able to play a "World Devouring, Life Ending, Catastrophe Causing" type villain in the first place. The fact that the system can't deliver the type of play experience some would want does not make their desire to play that kind of villain a "poor" choice in the least.|
Originally Posted by Haetron
There's a simple solution here.
You need to quit playing poor-quality characters that have no artistic value for a multiplayer experience. The developers, first and foremost, are working on crafting a multiplayer experience. This means that the classic "World Devouring, Life Ending, Catastrophe causing" type villain doesn't work, and it's why the game never actually gives you the tools to be one. You just wind up making up ridiculous backstory and then complaining the game doesn't fold to what you've created. |
Trying to claim players are "playing wrong" because the game won't let them play the way they want is absolutely ridiculous.
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Just give villains a permanent buff that gives them Statesman's powers after enslaving Wade as a living table. Heck, let them off a few more A-list heroes with no risk, that might stop the whining for awhile.
They get buffs and other extra rewards for everything they do already. Why not continue the bribery?
Probably in the minority here, but I think it's equally presumptuous to assume that my hero is entirely at odds with Wade and doesn't find the slightest bit of common ground with him.
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I agree for the most part. CoH is all about customization. Not saying we should be able to become God and smite the entire Phalanx with the literal snap of a finger or anything.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Trying to claim players are "playing wrong" because the game won't let them play the way they want is absolutely ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Probably in the minority here, but I think it's equally presumptuous to assume that my hero is entirely at odds with Wade and doesn't the slightest bit of common ground with him.
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http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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But wait... I thought the Devs hated the redside... |
Originally Posted by Ogi
Just give villains a permanent buff that gives them Statesman's powers after enslaving Wade as a living table. Heck, let them off a few more A-list heroes with no risk, that might stop the whining for awhile.
They get buffs and other extra rewards for everything they do already. Why not continue the bribery? |
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Redside AE PVP. A dev's worst nightmare.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
But wait... I thought the Devs hated the redside...
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http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Every game has rules. Breaking those rules is effectively "playing wrong".|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Trying to claim players are "playing wrong" because the game won't let them play the way they want is absolutely ridiculous.
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In CoV, the setting is what provides the rules. Basically, every player villain starts out fairly small time, and ultimately, gets a small taste of possible epic villainy, but can never follow through, because doing so would break the game experience. Nothing in CoV supports the idea of the player ever being an immortal god king that could destroy the universe then escape safely to their home dimension. (Yes, Im taking into account Praetorians, and even they never have the power to pull this off.)
It's like complaining in a baseball game that you can't just hit the ball wherever and the other team has to go make a play on it regardless of where it lands. (IE, a foul ball) Lines and rules exist in all games for a reason. Choosing to ignore those things then complain the game doesn't turn out the way you expect is just folly, and effectively, yes, playing the game wrong.
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I dunno. This same type of argument could be made about being as powerful as Phalanx Members or even Statesman years ago before Incarnates. But I do agree with a lot of things you said. I don't expect everyone to tremble in terror and lick the blood off my boots when playing my villain. I certainly don't expect my villain(s) to become an unstoppable Overlord over the primal world. |
Originally Posted by Haetron
Every game has rules. Breaking those rules is effectively "playing wrong".
In CoV, the setting is what provides the rules. Basically, every player villain starts out fairly small time, and ultimately, gets a small taste of possible epic villainy, but can never follow through, because doing so would break the game experience. Nothing in CoV supports the idea of the player ever being an immortal god king that could destroy the universe then escape safely to their home dimension. (Yes, Im taking into account Praetorians, and even they never have the power to pull this off.) It's like complaining in a baseball game that you can't just hit the ball wherever and the other team has to go make a play on it regardless of where it lands. (IE, a foul ball) Lines and rules exist in all games for a reason. Choosing to ignore those things then complain the game doesn't turn out the way you expect is just folly, and effectively, yes, playing the game wrong. |
Now maybe make an arc where we get to conquer some OTHER dimension may be cool...
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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It'd bog the game development down way too much - they'd have to create content for a world where Recluse won, and a world where Tyrant and the loyalists won, and write 3 separate meta-storylines for the 3 versions where each of the 3 starting factions came out on top.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Ha! Explaining that villains shouldn't get what they want out of this game because it saves the Devs a bunch of "unnecessary work" was especially hilarious, even for you. Promise us you'll never change GG.
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For example, the Dark Astoria revamp was being planned before they even started work on the Trials, and the Atlas Park revamp took over a year to do - now just imagine them having to do all that twice more to show a world where red side and yellow side won.
It also causes massive story problems in writing content for a world where evil has won - it works in Praetoria, because the storyline shows that there's hope to found in another world, and that the exisiting order won't last forever, and that you'll be able to return at a later point in the story to set your world free.
But imagine what that'd be like if Tyrant's empire was all that there was on both worlds, after he won the dimensional war - it'd be a totally hopeless environment.
The meta-story needs basic truths about what has and hasn't happened in the CoHverse, otherwise it'd totally fall apart.
That's why, for example, the death of Statesman isn't an optional choice, unlike the Cleopatra-Washington face off.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Somehow you keep trying to say that the inherent limitations of having to stick to a static model for a MMO is the only excuse necessary to justify hampering an entire concept of roleplay. Games don't make arbitrary "rules" to limit player freedom on purpose. The only reason we can't play "world destroying" villains in this game is because the game system is inadequate to allow for it, not because the Devs would ever make an arbitrary "rule" against it.|
Originally Posted by Haetron
Every game has rules. Breaking those rules is effectively "playing wrong".
In CoV, the setting is what provides the rules. Basically, every player villain starts out fairly small time, and ultimately, gets a small taste of possible epic villainy, but can never follow through, because doing so would break the game experience. Nothing in CoV supports the idea of the player ever being an immortal god king that could destroy the universe then escape safely to their home dimension. (Yes, Im taking into account Praetorians, and even they never have the power to pull this off.) It's like complaining in a baseball game that you can't just hit the ball wherever and the other team has to go make a play on it regardless of where it lands. (IE, a foul ball) Lines and rules exist in all games for a reason. Choosing to ignore those things then complain the game doesn't turn out the way you expect is just folly, and effectively, yes, playing the game wrong. |
You've clearly confused some sort of apples and oranges here.
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A new variable just occurred to me. I think the reason we can't be over the top world-domination evil is the fact with GR all villains can redeem themselves. It'd be a bit strange to cause a genocide and then do a few good deeds and become a hero and everyone cheers like it never happened.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Of course, you can always go the full on sandbox route, and let you play as you want...
But that has its *own* problems
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I thought heroes did things for the greater good, right wrongs deeds, and all that. I'll admit though, I found it odd that Numina doesn't at least offer that temp power to heroes. That way they can either do it just for the sake of doing it, or get a nice little reward. I could just give the skull back if I wanted to be more roguish, why don;t heros get a similar option? As for the other buff, Kal's SF, wasn't that added in since villains side has a lower population and give a chance to get a Notice easier? The flames buff is all right too. The Synapse's power mish is fun too though, too bad I didn't get to keep the Synapse Whirlwind power, I love that, I want it as a patron power!
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Just give villains a permanent buff that gives them Statesman's powers after enslaving Wade as a living table. Heck, let them off a few more A-list heroes with no risk, that might stop the whining for awhile.
They get buffs and other extra rewards for everything they do already. Why not continue the bribery? |
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You can roleplay whatever you want, but the point where you start expecting the game mechanics to support totally arbitrary characterization is the point where you become incorrect. You're not going to be allowed to press the button. If you feel that's out of character for you, don't play any arc where the button is within arm's reach. Thus is happiness maintained.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Somehow you keep trying to say that the inherent limitations of having to stick to a static model for a MMO is the only excuse necessary to justify hampering an entire concept of roleplay. Games don't make arbitrary "rules" to limit player freedom on purpose. The only reason we can't play "world destroying" villains in this game is because the game system is inadequate to allow for it, not because the Devs would ever make an arbitrary "rule" against it.
You've clearly confused some sort of apples and oranges here. |
But expecting other people to respect your desire to destroy the world - with the expectation of actually getting to do it! - is incorrect, in the same way that showing up to a card game and demanding to burn the deck is invalid. You can't burn the deck. The rest of us are still playing with it. Complaining about this fact is incorrect.
@Mindshadow
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Worked for Darth Vader, didn't it?
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Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
A new variable just occurred to me. I think the reason we can't be over the top world-domination evil is the fact with GR all villains can redeem themselves. It'd be a bit strange to cause a genocide and then do a few good deeds and become a hero and everyone cheers like it never happened.
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@Mindshadow
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You're still trying to justify that an entire line of villainous roleplay is "wrong" simply because the Devs didn't have enough time or money to allow for it. It's completely disingenuous to believe you've proven something simply because the "Devs couldn't get around to it" anyway. I never claimed that being able to allow for villain roleplay like that had to be easy for the Devs to provide in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It'd bog the game development down way too much - they'd have to create content for a world where Recluse won, and a world where Tyrant and the loyalists won, and write 3 separate meta-storylines for the 3 versions where each of the 3 starting factions came out on top.
For example, the Dark Astoria revamp was being planned before they even started work on the Trials, and the Atlas Park revamp took over a year to do - now just imagine them having to do all that twice more to show a world where red side and yellow side won. It also causes massive story problems in writing content for a world where evil has won - it works in Praetoria, because the storyline shows that there's hope to found in another world, and that the exisiting order won't last forever, and that you'll be able to return at a later point in the story to set your world free. But imagine what that'd be like if Tyrant's empire was all that there was on both worlds, after he won the dimensional war - it'd be a totally hopeless environment. The meta-story needs basic truths about what has and hasn't happened in the CoHverse, otherwise it'd totally fall apart. That's why, for example, the death of Statesman isn't an optional choice, unlike the Cleopatra-Washington face off. |
I know you have a totally hero-oriented outlook regardless so you're already predisposed to be against this kind of thing anyway. But claiming that this is wrong BECAUSE the Devs couldn't implement is weak even for you.
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I do think it would be kind of cool to try and might be satisfying for the right character, but being able to continue playing the game with other characters as if nothing happened would kind of dilute even that.
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