So, we can't go from Hero to Villain in one day...
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-01-13 07:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I suppose it's okay to be hypocritical as long as you're getting paid extra for it.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Time vs Money
do it through time and you have 4 days for a full switch
Pay PS extra money and you can do it now.
Same thing with respecs really.
Spend time to complete the Trials or buy it now.
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Respec trials don't have an arbitrary four day limit.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Time vs Money
do it through time and you have 4 days for a full switch Pay PS extra money and you can do it now. Same thing with respecs really. Spend time to complete the Trials or buy it now. |
Not to mention it's STILL total hypocrisy going by Posi's original statement. I'm FINE with that, but I'm not cool with only the paid option being instant. That's just lame.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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If you could change alignment via tips faster, you could also earn alignment merits faster. It's as simple as that.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
If you could change alignment via tips faster, you could also earn alignment merits faster. It's as simple as that.
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Kinda like if you keep doing a baf over and over you keep getting emp merits, oh wait....
I agree with the OP I don't care about emp merit daily limit i just want to be able to switch via tips as fast as they drop and I can complete the missions.
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If that were an issue they could time gate the reward without hampering the rest.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
If you could change alignment via tips faster, you could also earn alignment merits faster. It's as simple as that.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Ugh, I hope they're cheap at least. I want to do the early arcs and switch before I'm twenty on one character.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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Posi's position on this is not completely hypocritical - it's just not completely obvious either.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Not to mention it's STILL total hypocrisy going by Posi's original statement. I'm FINE with that, but I'm not cool with only the paid option being instant. That's just lame.
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The idea behind originally making it taking days to switch alignments was never about forcing it to be a super-slow process. The intent behind the time delay was simply to prevent it from being something we could trivially do every 5 minutes. The Devs didn't want people to figure out some fun new way to exploit the game somehow by being able to flip-flop back and forth between alignments instantly. Imposing a multi-day wait was ONE way to enforce that.
Another way to enforce that is to require people to pay for an alignment change token. By involving real world money in the process it naturally encourages people to -not- whimsically flip back-n-forth between alignments because each time you do costs money. This is the same method of control many MMOs use for server transfers - by making people spend money on them it naturally prevents people from abusing it.
So what we have now is two ways to switch alignments that are regulated by two different forms of control. As DMystic was saying either you pay via real life money or you pay via real life time. Both of these methods hamper us from insta-switching back-n-forth which is the main thing the Devs wanted to prevent us from doing. Sure if you want to spend a ton of money to be able to do that with tokens the game will now let you do that, but practically no one will be willing to spend the money to do that on a regular continual basis.
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So now that the novelty of alignment change has worn off for some people, it's safe for the devs to turn it into for-profit sideline? The missions written around tips and alignment change are some of the best new content Paragon's added recently. Who will care now about their character's progress between the Cities of Heroes and Villains if it's reduced to a service charge?
That's exactly the kind of mercenary attitude towards a gaming world that kills immersion dead.
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If I have a story to tell about a Hero going bad, then I'm definitely going to do the Alignment missions. However, if I want to take a hero villainside to get access to PPPs, I'm fine with the character waking up in the Rogue Isles with everyone thinking she's a villain. I then get to do Alignment missions to clear her name and prove that she is worthy of being trusted. That's definitely an arc I'd finish with "The Unusual Suspect."
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Who will care now about their character's progress between the Cities of Heroes and Villains if it's reduced to a service charge?
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I see it as giving players more choices. We all know that some players like the whole idea of "roleplaying" the game and being involved in the stories. We also know that other players couldn't really care less about that kind of thing.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
So now that the novelty of alignment change has worn off for some people, it's safe for the devs to turn it into for-profit sideline? The missions written around tips and alignment change are some of the best new content Paragon's added recently. Who will care now about their character's progress between the Cities of Heroes and Villains if it's reduced to a service charge?
That's exactly the kind of mercenary attitude towards a gaming world that kills immersion dead. |
Now we'll have the choice to either enjoy the tip missions and switching alignments without spending any extra money or being able to quickly shift to the alignment they want to be so that they can get on with playing the game the way they want to play. There's a cost to it either way - now we get to choose which way we want to pay.
I'm honestly having a hard time seeing a downside to this. *shrugs*
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Yeah, I like them a lot and generally would like to keep doing them (irrespective of Alignment merits or changing alignment) but alas they nonsensically cease being available far too soon.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
The missions written around tips and alignment change are some of the best new content Paragon's added recently.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Care to wager that you'll be among the 1% of players who take the time to come up with some kind of rational for their characters' insta-switches (even if it's just a Nemesis plot)?|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
However, if I want to take a hero villainside to get access to PPPs, I'm fine with the character waking up in the Rogue Isles with everyone thinking she's a villain. I then get to do Alignment missions to clear her name and prove that she is worthy of being trusted.
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Some things should be worth taking time in game. Special offers with service fees like this carry the implicit message that the devs don't think so.
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And this offer caters to the latter while undermining the former. I have no problem with charging for services such as respecs, but the devs put so much work into creating the alignment system and then promoting it that this move cannot be read as anything other than opportunistic.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I see it as giving players more choices. We all know that some players like the whole idea of "roleplaying" the game and being involved in the stories. We also know that other players couldn't really care less about that kind of thing.
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What next, an Incarnate Token so we don't have to go through the familiar Mender Ramiel arc or grinding iTrials?
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Care to wager that you'll be among the 1% of players who take the time to come up with some kind of rational for their characters' insta-switches (even if it's just a Nemesis plot)?
Some things should be worth taking time in game. Special offers with service fees like this carry the implicit message that the devs don't think so. |
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
And this offer caters to the latter while undermining the former. I have no problem with charging for services such as respecs, but the devs put so much work into creating the alignment system and then promoting it that this move cannot be read as anything other than opportunistic.
What next, an Incarnate Token so we don't have to go through the familiar Mender Ramiel arc or grinding iTrials? |
There's no real need for there to be some kind of 50/50 split between the way players use these features. If it turns out that some relatively huge percentage of playerbase only use alignment change tokens to make that change in the future then so be it. That would not be a game-breaking scenario.
P.S. For what it's worth I already have a simple "explaination" for one of my side switching badging characters that actually makes more sense with these new tokens. She's an avid science geek hero who occasionally has "accidents" with her science experiments which causes her to temporarily turn evil for short periods of time until the nasty chemicals wear off. I know if I can come up with a quick working rationale like that anyone could.
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--{=====> Virtue ♀
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What does it matter to me what other players do in that respect? I have a character who has gone from 5 to 38 on newspaper and tip missions because she wants to decide for herself what missions to do, not to serve as agency to another person. She does whatever catches her attention.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Care to wager that you'll be among the 1% of players who take the time to come up with some kind of rational for their characters' insta-switches (even if it's just a Nemesis plot)?
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I've heard tell that some people don't read mission text or flavour text. I can't be sure if that's true, but it could happen. And the chances of that impacting my play? Close to zero.
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Indeed. You're on the side of hypothetical Incarnate Tokens in that case?
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Again I think you're looking at this a little too one-sided. Players now have a CHOICE to play either way. Hard to argue against player choice.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Care to wager that you'll be among the 1% of players who take the time to come up with some kind of rational for their characters' insta-switches (even if it's just a Nemesis plot)?
Some things should be worth taking time in game. Special offers with service fees like this carry the implicit message that the devs don't think so. |
Who cares?
People asked for the ability to switch sides not for roleplaying but because they wanted to . . . wait for it . . . switch sides.
Had the devs originally intro'd side switching with no tips I don't think anyone could have bated an eye.
I honestly don't care if folks can switch instantly as it does nothing for or against my enjoyment of the game. I think after folks screamed for a way to START the game with ANY AT on ANY SIDE (which they gave us in COH FREEDOM) the devs realized that alignment really is not all that important for many players.
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That's not a very good example, as all it takes is 5 astrals (you can get that on one trial) to unlock alpha, so the devs have already long ago made the Mender arc completely 100% useless.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Indeed. You're on the side of hypothetical Incarnate Tokens in that case?
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You can sneeze and get 5 astrals from nearly anything in game now. Doesn't even need trials. (You can get astrals from trials, tfs, and solo.)
I'd suggest picking another example to make your point.
EDIT: Short answer: Yes, for something as ridiculously easy now as unlocking alpha, sure let them have at it. I'd ofcourse laugh at anyone who wastes money on something that can be unlocked in 30 minutes or less.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Directly? Nothing.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
What does it matter to me what other players do in that respect?
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Indirectly, though, this makes an overall impact in a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game. There's a reason we refer to the CoH playerbase as a community. It's that community, and its spirit, that's as important to many of us as any gameplay mechanic.
If that community changes to emphasize convenience over immersion, then it will come to resemble Team Hat-Wearers 2 (hey, they already have the RMT in-game randomized reward crates).
i.e. DOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Directly? Nothing.
Indirectly, though, this makes an overall impact in a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game. There's a reason we refer to the CoH playerbase as a community. It's that community, and its spirit, that's as important to many of us as any gameplay mechanic. If that community changes to emphasize convenience over immersion, then it will come to resemble Team Hat-Wearers 2 (hey, they already have the RMT in-game randomized reward crates). |
Explain to me how this makes an impact in an massively multiplayer online roleplaying game, when the tips have always been able to be done 100% solo? In fact it's FASTER if you are trying to switch sides to do them SOLO.
The tips never added anything to the spirit of the community. At most they are a roleplaying mechanic, at most just a way to switch sides. Now you don't even need them if you want to start on one side or another. Keep in mind that roleplaying IS NOT AT ALL important for most people in this community.
So I'm not sure how tips ever had anything to do with the spirit of the community.
And newsflash: Convenience over immersion has ALWAYS been a part of this community. I really can't believe you can think that it hasn't with things like the AE debacle, farming in PI, speed runs pre and post the Katie Hannon nerf, folks asking for ways to circumvent random tf rewards which lead to merits, etc, etc. Hell, folks who are 50 have shown they prefer the faster BAF/LAM over the more story immerse next level trials. I . . . don't get your statement at all based on the history of this game/community.
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Given that the Devs are already well along the path of giving us Cape unlocks, Aura unlocks and Alpha unlocks I don't really see Alignment Change tokens being completely incongruous with the way the game is evolving. It's hard to say if the Devs would go as far as your hypothetical Incarnate tokens, but I suspect your main trouble with them would be whether they were implemented as unlocks or paid-for tokens.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Indeed. You're on the side of hypothetical Incarnate Tokens in that case?
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Basically if people CHOOSE to give Paragon Studios more money for what they perceive to be a convenient alternative to spending time on something like this then at least I'll get to benefit from having Devs with more money to work with. *shrugs*
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Also THIS. Not seeing an issue here. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Given that the Devs are already well along the path of giving us Cape unlocks, Aura unlocks and Alpha unlocks I don't really see Alignment Change tokens being completely incongruous with the way the game is evolving. It's hard to say if the Devs would go as far as your hypothetical Incarnate tokens, but I suspect your main trouble with them would be whether they were implemented as unlocks or paid-for tokens.
Basically if people CHOOSE to give Paragon Studios more money for what they perceive to be a convenient alternative to spending time on something like these then at least I'll get to benefit from having Devs with more money to work with. *shrugs* |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Unless you pay for an Alignment Change token, of course.
...
Wut.
So, seriously now; why is there still an arbitrary time limit on alignment switching by doing tips and such in game?
When you can just BUY the alignment you want (which, coincidentally, completely eradicates Posi's whole "We don't want alignment to be a switch you flick on and off" ramble from when it was first introduced...) it seems somewhat hypocritical to still limit the in-game method so unfairly. Bit of a bum move there.