The average times are never really correct and never seem to update properly.
The big problem is that DFB and the Incarnate Trials have trained most players to form up teams -before- joining the queue, which means they just join in instantly. Which also means you pretty much have to rely on there being 11 other people that decided to join in by themselves without forming up a team first.
Which unfortunately means you're kind of better off advertising to start your own league or hunt about if anyone else is doing one ;p
Yeah, the queue works on averages. If 5 people sit in the queue for five hours, and there are 100 others that start in seconds, it averages out to only a few minutes. :/
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
That right there is good programmin'.
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No right there is the definition of average.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
That right there is good programmin'.
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Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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Mean, median or mode?|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
No right there is the definition of average.
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If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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This is pure bull. Preforming leagues was going on long before the DFB was ever added to the game. When the trials were first introduced everyone participating had to gather in the same zone to start the trials.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
The big problem is that DFB and the Incarnate Trials have trained most players to form up teams -before- joining the queue,
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Furthermore there are valid reasons why players prefer preforming teams/leagues.
SG's, Global Channels, and other player organized groups like Tanker Tuesdays sponsor events for themselves and have restrictions on who and what type of characters can participate in the event.
Preformed teams and leagues allow players some control over weeding out leechers and griefers that like to join random trials and in the former do nothing while other players bust their butts, or in the latter case deliberately sabotaging the trials just because they can.
A trial leader can see the players interested in joining and see if he's 1 starred anyone and weed out the bad eggs.
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
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That's actually a really interesting point. What value is really the best to use here? By now I'm pretty much convinced that it is not the average, no matter how you calculate it.
Why not use the median? Or maybe some more sophisticated calculation. Throwing away outliers might be a good idea too. Also, is the time calc including people who enter the queue, and then leave with no result? It seems like they should count too, in some way.
(Also, supposedly, the patch notes a while back said that pre-formed leagues would no longer participate in the "average" calculation. I have no idea, however, if this is working properly or not.)
EDIT: P. S. I still think Poisson is probably the way to go.
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i agree with all this, however ive not had a problem randomly queuing for a DFB since its so easy to run, incarnate trials on the other hand are actually near impossible to pass without enough poeple knowing what is going on, but your reasoning is basically why i never queue for an incarnate trial randomly unless i see a formed group that has a few spots open saying they are entering the queue then ill usually pop in if i have nothing else going on and because i know there is a very good chance ill get on the trial
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
This is pure bull. Preforming leagues was going on long before the DFB was ever added to the game. When the trials were first introduced everyone participating had to gather in the same zone to start the trials.
Furthermore there are valid reasons why players prefer preforming teams/leagues. SG's, Global Channels, and other player organized groups like Tanker Tuesdays sponsor events for themselves and have restrictions on who and what type of characters can participate in the event. Preformed teams and leagues allow players some control over weeding out leechers and griefers that like to join random trials and in the former do nothing while other players bust their butts, or in the latter case deliberately sabotaging the trials just because they can. A trial leader can see the players interested in joining and see if he's 1 starred anyone and weed out the bad eggs. |
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LOL. you're so cute Forbin, jumping to conclusions and all that. I'm glad something hits your nerve, you need a good annoying now and again.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
This is pure bull. Preforming leagues was going on long before the DFB was ever added to the game. When the trials were first introduced everyone participating had to gather in the same zone to start the trials.
Furthermore there are valid reasons why players prefer preforming teams/leagues. SG's, Global Channels, and other player organized groups like Tanker Tuesdays sponsor events for themselves and have restrictions on who and what type of characters can participate in the event. Preformed teams and leagues allow players some control over weeding out leechers and griefers that like to join random trials and in the former do nothing while other players bust their butts, or in the latter case deliberately sabotaging the trials just because they can. A trial leader can see the players interested in joining and see if he's 1 starred anyone and weed out the bad eggs. |
It's not the problem that the queue allows pre-formed teams. It's the problem that the current design trains -everyone- to pre-form. The points you suggested are indeed valid, I'm not saying they're not.
but part of the idea of the Team up teleporter's utility was so that you wouldn't always -have- to pre-form. If you just wanted to do a random PUG for DFB you could just drop into the queue and be on your way. The problem is that since -everyone- is pre-forming in order to ensure max numbers, there's next to no one sitting by themselves in the queue so you sit there and wait for 2 hours doing nothing until you decide to start advertising and pre-forming.
For incarnate trials it's really less a problem because a lot of them you -do- want to kind of hand pick everything to maximize your chances. But a smaller trial like DfB is essentially fail proof, you -have- to get griefers or door sitters in order to fail them. And the Winter Trial is pretty stupid easy too, you just need the numbers, not any kind of experienced players. I witnessed people trying to treat it like an incarnate trial and taking it way too seriously and we steam rolled it, it was ridiculous. You don't need strategy, you just need to tank and spank him and the Winter Guards that crop up at the right times. You don't -need- to hand pick and get max size for it, but everyone has been.
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If we use the median, or throw away outliers, the time displayed would be less than it currently is, and thus even more misleading. "5 minutes" as an average wait time at least implies you'll be waiting, and so it is intuitively plausible that you could be waiting a while. If it says "<1 minute", why, one would expect to get in almost instantly!|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
That's actually a really interesting point. What value is really the best to use here? By now I'm pretty much convinced that it is not the average, no matter how you calculate it.
Why not use the median? Or maybe some more sophisticated calculation. Throwing away outliers might be a good idea too. Also, is the time calc including people who enter the queue, and then leave with no result? It seems like they should count too, in some way. |
The problem with the "average wait time" is that it's the average of the whole group, both solo and group queue-ers. But you can't queue up simultaneously solo and with a group, so the average wait time is never applicable to your own situation. It's like the surveys that say the average family has 2.2 children - it's mathematically true, but you cannot expect to actually find any such family. Groups above the start threshold don't really need a wait time display at all. The wait time should probably only count solo players, and possibly also groups below the minimum size threshold, although I don't think there are many of those, it's mostly people queuing solo or with a team big enough to start on its own.
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Sorry to disappoint you AW but stating facts isn't jumping to conclusions.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
LOL. you're so cute Forbin, jumping to conclusions and all that.
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1. The first incarnate trials went live in April 2011.
2. Shortly after that the forums were alive with complaints, suggestions, and demands for the ability to form private leagues for all the reasons I listed previously and very soon the devs complied.
3. The DFB went live in September 2011. Five months after players had been preforming leagues.
While there are many people that don't like preformed leagues there are more that do. The simple fact that there are people complaining about not being able to join those leagues proves it.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i agree with all this, however ive not had a problem randomly queuing for a DFB since its so easy to run, incarnate trials on the other hand are actually near impossible to pass without enough poeple knowing what is going on, but your reasoning is basically why i never queue for an incarnate trial randomly unless i see a formed group that has a few spots open saying they are entering the queue then ill usually pop in if i have nothing else going on and because i know there is a very good chance ill get on the trial
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To be honest it isn't my reasoning. I never do Incarnate trials. They don't interest me. I'm just stating the arguments that were made by posters when they were demanding the ability to make private leagues in the Spring of 2011.
Setting aside all the high falutin math and not wanting to pull out my very dusty (and rusty) multi-variable calculus work, let me just state this. The avg. time wait listed for any trial in the queue is a freaking lie. fix it.
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"I like to be contrary just because". yeah that really does describe you.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
To be honest it isn't my reasoning. I never do Incarnate trials. They don't interest me. I'm just stating the arguments that were made by posters when they were demanding the ability to make private leagues in the Spring of 2011.
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Is that really the best you can do AW? Telling the truth isn't "being contrary just because". I pity you if the best response you can come up with is childish insults when you can't refute the facts.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
"I like to be contrary just because". yeah that really does describe you.
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Not true. If the distribution is "top heavy" (many people wait a long time) or the outliers we throw away are on the low side, then the value displayed will increase, not be less.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
If we use the median, or throw away outliers, the time displayed would be less than it currently is,
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Right, but it isn't top heavy. Solo queuers ARE the outliers, because their waiting time is far from the simple arithmetic mean.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
Not true. If the distribution is "top heavy" (many people wait a long time) or the outliers we throw away are on the low side, then the value displayed will increase, not be less.
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So rather than discarding outliers, I think it would be better to track two separate averages: one for teams, and one for solo queuers. It could display both all the time, or maybe just display the appropriate one when you're teamed or solo. This would be more informative than the current average, and require little fancy analysis or mathematics, although the SCR applies of course.
After waiting, and giving up on, a 45 minute Lord of Winter queue, again, on Victory and hitting the first instanced mission in Atlas on a fresh character on Defiant before the DFB queue popped (with people spamming DFB teams), the TUT is a big fail for soloing and I thank the iTrials for that.
LoW shouldn't need a vetted handcrafted team to succeed, nor should DFB but no one will enter the damn queue in anything but a closed team.
Oh, and they were both 5 minute queues.
the problem with the Lord of Winter queue is there was nothing wrong with the old way it worked, everyone got together to beat up on a winter lord, then the present would appear, you knew instantly if you had enough people to participate, now you have to wait around for 30 minutes to get enough people to help... if you are lucky
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It doesn't - not by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it allows a maximum of 36 members and you can succeed with half that.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
LoW shouldn't need a vetted handcrafted team to succeed,
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Disabling the closed league option for holiday events would be a good start.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
It doesn't - not by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it allows a maximum of 36 members and you can succeed with half that.
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There's no MoLoW, nor can one person hose the attemp by not clicking the right thing at the right time, nor are there things to stand in. Holiday events don't need the closed option.
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No it wouldn't. |
Originally Posted by Ogi
Disabling the closed league option for holiday events would be a good start.
There's no MoLoW, nor can one person hose the attemp by not clicking the right thing at the right time, nor are there things to stand in. Holiday events don't need the closed option. |
Holidays are a time when friends and families spend time together doing things at private parties, semi private, as well as public events. The same feelings apply in game as in real life. So players should be allowed to host closed leagues for their private in game events.
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Just gather Max-1 of your closest friends (hard choices must be made), and poof, no problem.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
No it wouldn't.
Holidays are a time when friends and families spend time together doing things at private parties, semi private, as well as public events. The same feelings apply in game as in real life. So players should be allowed to host closed leagues for their private in game events. |
Does this queue work? I placed myself in the queue the other day and even though it said the wait time was an AVG of 5 minutes, I was in the queue over an hour and nothing happened.