Using Ion on Civilians in TPN (Yes, this happened)


AkuTenshiiZero

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
I mostly agree with the proviso that if you absolutely have to follow instructions to succeed, then it's not your attention span that's faulty, it's the game


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
If the game tells you that you can't attack the civilians if you want to succeed with this task, but then players attack the civilians and the task fails, then that's not the fault of the game.

Except that you often cannot see what you're targeting because of effects spam and you tab to the nearest target because that's what has worked in the entire game until this mission and then you have an oops moment?

Right.



"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
I mostly agree with the proviso that if you absolutely have to follow instructions to succeed, then it's not your attention span that's faulty, it's the game
....

what?


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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
That was one of your most stupid throwaway lines ever. Seriously.

I'm playing a game, that I have played for almost six years. I'm not trying to learn to pilot an alien space ship from scratch. I have spent a long time learning to play. I don't want to suddenly learn a new mechanic to stroke some Dev's ego.

The degrees of complexity multiply with the number of people having to learn the instructions. If the fact that it's too difficult to get a large group of people to work the mechanic together then it's not me. It's not the player next to me, and it's not my team leader. It's the mechanics of the trial.

Hey. What's not to love when the game gives you quick flashes of.

*AUGH! DO SOMETHING HERE!*

Then

*OHNOEZ! DO SOMETHING ELSE!*

Then

*OMGWTFBBQ! DON'T DO THAT!*



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Posted

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Originally Posted by Ultimus View Post
I remember back in late 1999 early 2000 when playing Everquest on Nameless server there was a raid against Trakanon, a poison dragon.

A guy named Glubgawd got mad and pulled it wiping not one, not two, but three raids.

The guilds were Legacy of Steel, Sanctuary, and I think Scions of Veeshan was the other that was there.

*Sign* DO NOT WAKE SLEEPING DRAGON! WILL EAT EVERYTHING IN ZONE!
--Signed "The last group of schmucks who got eaten"


Guy walks up to a huge hole in the ground.


"LEEEEEEEROYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY JEN-KINS!"

And we cut away to spare our poor viewers the sight of utter carnage that follows.


Ranger: We can make it out of the zone in about 3 minutes. How soon will the dragon have eaten everything in the zone?

Mage: About 2 minutes.

Ranger: Crap...



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Posted

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
I mostly agree with the proviso that if you absolutely have to follow instructions to succeed, then it's not your attention span that's faulty, it's the game
Um, I think that's preposterous.

Anything you can do without following instructions is something you might as well faceroll. I'm OK with this game being mostly face-rollable, because it is, and I like this game. But I see nothing wrong with content where you have to follow instructions or seriously risk failure. I'm sorry, but if someone can't listen to instructions, I am going to look down on them. That's true in the game, at work, and in life in general.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
Except that you often cannot see what you're targeting because of effects spam and you tab to the nearest target because that's what has worked in the entire game until this mission and then you have an oops moment?
If people fail due to an "oops moment", then fine. I won't be happy, but I won't hold it against them. People who do this and know they did it usually apologize, and anyone who does that almost always calms me down, though it does depend on what they did before that, and for how long in the face of people telling them not to.

What's not cool is people who repeatedly and long-term ignore chat and just attack willy-nilly, or blatantly do something that's both bad and that the leader asked them not to. "Don't run ahead of me" when someone is leading a bomb badge attempt on the Underground is a great example. Whether or not I want that badge, if the leader decides it's a badge run, I make a best effort to help them get the badge, and "don't run ahead of me" is sound advice. I have seen players repeatedly ignore those requests and fail the badge attempt. I have also seen them voted off the trial, and I had no pity on them.


Blue
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
Clearly this is a game and we're not making comparative moral choices - for example I have huge issues with vigilantes in the Real World - but it makes no sense for the bad guys on our side to adhere to some ambiguous moral code for the sake of the story. It's inconsistent and ridiculous.
In the TPN, you don't have to care about the civilians or be particularly interested in their welfare. The goal is to turn them to your side. Let's note that the Praetorians, villains all of them, are trying to do the same thing throughout the trials. Turning public opinion to their side because its the easiest way to accomplish a goal.

Villains could just kill everyone, but that really doesn't aid their overall goal.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
I mostly agree with the proviso that if you absolutely have to follow instructions to succeed, then it's not your attention span that's faulty, it's the game


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Personally I'm fine with some basic instructions but don't bother trying to tell me anything once the fighting starts. Not that I don't pay attention its that I can't if I'm focused on my character and not dieing.

Some of us are playing with disabilities of sorts. I have tunnel vision and can only see the center of the screen. So I don't see the chat window, or my Health or any warnings that may pop up near the top of the screen. Only warnings I may catch will be ones that pop up immediately overtop of my toon's head like Sequester notices and the rings. Pretty much anything outside of a spawn that I'm currently engaged in melee with I won't see.


 

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This.


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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post

Which brings up another point that IMHO is being overlooked is the fact that MOM and TPN require you "not" to use certain powers, Depending on the build and AT this can go a LONG way in making these trials UNFUN.

The entire don't use this or that power because of the gimmicky way the devs set up the trial is basically an auto-failure in terms of something being easily accessible and attractive to the wider player base. I didn't go through 50 levels of content to get to powers that now I can't use in certain I trials because of the design. That is failsauce to the extreme.
I like ion judgement. It's fun. Especially on an elec/kin corruptor. It's nice to actually feel I'm dealing damage for a change. I understand that isnt exactly a solo friendly breed of corruptor, and that a fair amount of the powers are more beneficial to team/league play, but every now and then I want to stick the boot in, and what better way than with electrical chaos?
If I'm ever on the outside team of TPN on that toon, I have to just stick with Mael and use the heal, +end, +att and +team att powers, occasionally throwing in an SB or ID or something.
I admit that's my choice of toon, but being told the big pets I spent a long time unlocking have to be directly controlled very specifically, or not being able to use my t4 judgement just seems a little... annoying?
Just my two cents.


 

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Originally Posted by Max Geiger View Post
I admit that's my choice of toon, but being told the big pets I spent a long time unlocking have to be directly controlled very specifically, or not being able to use my t4 judgement just seems a little... annoying?
Just my two cents.
Hell, i dont even need to be incarnated to get told that i cannot use certain powers.

Hot feet for a stealthy mission? No go.
Cant keep my pets out either.

Hell, if i just want to run through and do a quick "click the glowy" mission, i know that i have to turn off my AoE powers... and these (well along with my pets) are my "bread and butter powers".

*shrugs*

But i just accept that, because i know that i will have to change how i play a character according to the situation, because there is *no singular best way* to play a character that will work in all situations.


 

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Originally Posted by Max Geiger View Post
If I'm ever on the outside team of TPN on that toon, I have to just stick with Mael and use the heal, +end, +att and +team att powers, occasionally throwing in an SB or ID or something.
No, you don't. There is never a reason to hold back AoEs on Maelstrom. Whoever is telling you that is wrong. There are no civilians out during that fight. While some are present when Maelstrom first appears (before they run out of the area), the Public Opinion bar disappears immediately, so even if you blast the civilians then, it shouldn't matter.

There's no reason to hold back pets, either, except as a precaution against people who can't be bothered to rein in the pets when the civilians reappear. There is a significant delay in defeating Maelstrom outside (the second time you fight him) and the civilians retaking their protest positions. People who can't get their pets under control before then are dumb, IMO.


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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
No, you don't. There is never a reason to hold back AoEs on Maelstrom. Whoever is telling you that is wrong. There are no civilians out during that fight. While some are present when Maelstrom first appears (before they run out of the area), the Public Opinion bar disappears immediately, so even if you blast the civilians then, it shouldn't matter.

Careful--this isn't true during the part where the Telepathists, Technicians, and Maelstrom are all out at the same time and all sapping public opinion. For the sake of precaution, most leagues I've been on just say "absolutely no pets, aoes or confuses outside, ever." It makes it less likely you'll suffer a catastrophic failure for one person's mistake.


 

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
I agree.

Given that it's entirely possible to have a very large number of Villains on any iTrial, given their coop nature, why would somebody who's made it to the top by stomping on any obstacle even bother trying to protect some Joe Soap who's entire civilisation seems hell bent on destroying his? Any villain worth their salt would leave civilian guts adorning not just the sidewalk but the cameras, presenters and corpses of dead Telepathists with a note saying: "If I EVER see Cole around here I will return and visit the most unholy of genocides on all your people!"

Clearly this is a game and we're not making comparative moral choices - for example I have huge issues with vigilantes in the Real World - but it makes no sense for the bad guys on our side to adhere to some ambiguous moral code for the sake of the story. It's inconsistent and ridiculous.

If it was like the Cathedral of Pain, and there for limited to Heroes only, fine, not a problem (as has been noted by esteemed colleagues here, I have other issues with the TPN as well so yes, there are problems) but why is it not sensible for a villain to take care of the problem with a nuke? "Took care of the problem boys, let's go kick ****!"
Villains don't have to adhere to a moral code to make you think they do.

Hell, there's a pretty huge laundry list of villains in real life that fit this trope to a T.
We call them politicians.


you could have it all
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I will let you down
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Careful--this isn't true during the part where the Telepathists, Technicians, and Maelstrom are all out at the same time and all sapping public opinion. For the sake of precaution, most leagues I've been on just say "absolutely no pets, aoes or confuses outside, ever." It makes it less likely you'll suffer a catastrophic failure for one person's mistake.
True. To be clear I'm talking about the express points where you have to fight him. You don't have to fight him during the broadcast phases, though doing so can reduce rate of PO loss. I have never been on a league that devoted anyone to fighting him, even if they do devote someone to Seers. To be honest, I don't think I have ever been on a TPN where anyone was assigned to fight Maelstrom, though some large leagues have had someone tank him to help keep him off of the Seer hunting players.

If you depend on Lore pets and AoEs, there's just no compelling need to be out fighting Seers or Maelstrom. I find it awfully hard to believe that in a league of at least 12 people, if anyone is being devoted to that, someone can't be picked who has a viable single-target attack chain. There is plenty of stuff for people who are AoE-centric to fight inside the TPN buildings. I agree that AoEs, Ion, etc. are fun. People can have that fun indoors.

IMO, having to tell people not to use AoEs or pets when fighting him during the phases where you expressly fight him is dumb. I understand why people do it. The fact that other players are so unreliable is part of why it's so dumb.

I'm not nuts about the fact that the trial has a mechanism that dumb people can fail for us. That doesn't mean I rag on the devs for putting that in. I'm going to rag on the dumb people, for not being able to handle such a simple mechanism.

TL;DR, people are making too much of the restrictions, including some people who lead the trial.


Blue
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I'm not nuts about the fact that the trial has a mechanism that dumb people can fail for us. That doesn't mean I rag on the devs for putting that in. I'm going to rag on the dumb people, for not being able to handle such a simple mechanism.

<shrug>

I think situations that suck, suck. I don't care about the source, I'm still going to stay away from it. On the rare occasion I do bother with it, I'm fine just telling people not to use any AoE ever, because I have zero trust in other players (read: random people on the Internet) to correctly guess when it is ok and when it isnt. Plus even having to explain that adds even more time to an already bloated conversation about this trial. Definitely a case of KISS.

EDIT: I'm also intrigued that you put enough trust in players to assume some of them won't hang around fighting Maelstrom outside no matter what you tell them.


 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
EDIT: I'm also intrigued that you put enough trust in players to assume some of them won't hang around fighting Maelstrom outside no matter what you tell them.
Well, frankly, being left alone outside with Maelstrom is no walk in the park. Not a lot of people would probably do it just for kicks, though I can see some people doing it just to see how long they could live. For whatever reason,
I've never seen anyone do that, but if they did and used AoEs out there to do it, and I caught them, I'd very likely be able get them kicked from a league that I run, even if it was an open event.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I'm not nuts about the fact that the trial has a mechanism that dumb people can fail for us. That doesn't mean I rag on the devs for putting that in. I'm going to rag on the dumb people, for not being able to handle such a simple mechanism.
Rule #0: People are stupid and will take every available opportunity to prove it.

Rule #1: Failure to take Rule #0 into account when designing any system will hurt a lot more people than you think.

If one person can manage to botch a trial for 20+ people, the devs screwed up. Period.


 

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Originally Posted by Black Zot View Post
Rule #0: People are stupid and will take every available opportunity to prove it.

Rule #1: Failure to take Rule #0 into account when designing any system will hurt a lot more people than you think.

If one person can manage to botch a trial for 20+ people, the devs screwed up. Period.
You are always gonna get people playing MMO's who dont like to organise and run things, but enjoy spoiling things for others - it doesnt matter if its a 20 minute incarnate trial, or a ten min DFB badge run, if they are gonna not listen and deliberately spoil the run for others they will do it no matter what the TF/SF/Trial is.

The devs cant be blamed - they have given us the tools to log our observations on people with the star ratings and that works for me

I use the player star ratings as a guide on who to invite and who not to invite to trials - I give people the benefit of the doubt with a one star and they get a second chance, two stars mean ok yeah we all make one or two mistakes, 3 stars/strikes and they are out and never to return it works for me


@kisana

 

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Originally Posted by Kisana View Post
You are always gonna get people playing MMO's who dont like to organise and run things, but enjoy spoiling things for others - it doesnt matter if its a 20 minute incarnate trial, or a ten min DFB badge run, if they are gonna not listen and deliberately spoil the run for others they will do it no matter what the TF/SF/Trial is.

The devs cant be blamed - they have given us the tools to log our observations on people with the star ratings and that works for me

I use the player star ratings as a guide on who to invite and who not to invite to trials - I give people the benefit of the doubt with a one star and they get a second chance, two stars mean ok yeah we all make one or two mistakes, 3 stars/strikes and they are out and never to return it works for me
See my previous post. If it's possible for one person out of 8, 12, 20, or more to spoil the run for everyone, it most certainly is the devs' fault, because they made it that way.

Imagine engineering a car with a feature, that, if activated, would immediately disable every other vehicle on the street. Would people absolve the auto maunfacturer of guilt? Hell no - they're the ones that gave one person the ability to screw over dozens.

There's a lot of features that developers won't implement because they know human nature will lead to using said features for large-scale griefing. And yet they designed TPN to be the most griefer-friendly raid instance I've ever seen. If the devs can't be blamed for that, then there's no such thing as accountability in CoX.


 

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Originally Posted by Black Zot View Post
See my previous post. If it's possible for one person out of 8, 12, 20, or more to spoil the run for everyone, it most certainly is the devs' fault, because they made it that way.

Imagine engineering a car with a feature, that, if activated, would immediately disable every other vehicle on the street. Would people absolve the auto maunfacturer of guilt? Hell no - they're the ones that gave one person the ability to screw over dozens.

There's a lot of features that developers won't implement because they know human nature will lead to using said features for large-scale griefing. And yet they designed TPN to be the most griefer-friendly raid instance I've ever seen. If the devs can't be blamed for that, then there's no such thing as accountability in CoX.
its ALWAYS possible in almost everything we do for the minority to spoil things for the majority - this is a game : YOU have the ability to record the stupidity and avoid the same mistakes.

You are doing a simple low level TF and you ask for a tank or buffer whatever - an empath shows up, but never uses any buffs or healing powers... Is this the Devs fault?

You are doing an ITF - you wanna do a shard run and say that in channels - 5 people join you and race ahead completing objectives only, then leave each mission - last mish they do only what they need to do to complete then quit team - trial over in 20 mins... is this the Devs fault?

Note it and move on - but it aint the devs fault


@kisana

 

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Originally Posted by Black Zot View Post
Rule #0: People are stupid and will take every available opportunity to prove it.

Rule #1: Failure to take Rule #0 into account when designing any system will hurt a lot more people than you think.

If one person can manage to botch a trial for 20+ people, the devs screwed up. Period.
This isn't a black-and-white area. This sort of challenge can exist without being massively fragile. I will provide the devs negative feedback if I think they build something that's too fragile. I think "Avoids the Green Stuff" is too fragile, because it's completely binary. The TPN is not completely binary - how bad someone can screw up does depend on the magnitude of their action and when they do it, but any failure does not lead to automatic failure. The MoM is fragile if people ignore instructions about how to handle Voids and nightmares repeatedly, but screwing up even one or two of them isn't likely to lead to failure.

I'm going to be blunt: I think your rules are stupid, and I reject them out of hand. If you run around making rules like that, you dumb down everything you get to experience with other people. In order to ensure you avoid the mere possibility you might fail due to someone else's action, you ensure that either failure isn't even an option, or you never play with other people. I, for one, don't ever intend to ask the devs to take that course. So feel free to inflict those rules on yourself; I'll instead endeavor to surround myself with sufficiently non-stupid people to insulate me from the stupid ones. (Contrary to the apparent opinion I probably project even to my in-game friends, I don't assume everyone I don't know is stupid. I assume there are a lot of stupid people out there, and anyone I don't know might be one of them, but I consider them innocent until proven guilty.)


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
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Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

This is a sort-of quick reply; I've read the first page of posts.

I understand your frustration, I really, really do. It never boggles my mind how no matter how many times you tell someone not to do something, it's like they just can't resist being stupid.

However...

First of all, in my opinion, it's not cool calling people out on the forums like this. Yes, I know you didn't name names, but still, anyone who ran this trial with you probably knows who you're talking about, and what purpose does that serve? They already knew who it was because they were with you. However, if the guy who did whatever perceived grievance to you sees the post and had an actual legitimate reason for doing it (cat on keyboard, afk and his four-year-old started punching pretty buttons, he mis-aimed his mouse and accidentally hit the Ion Judgment key, he forgot that he re-bound I to be Ion Judgment instead of Info Window, etc.) and he reads this thread, he's going to feel like dirt, possibly even to the point of quitting the game. If, on the other hand, the guy is a griefer and did it purely to cause you anguish, well guess what? Job well done! Let's find another team to screw over and see if we can get them to post melodramatic rants on the forums! Congratulations, you're giving him the jollies he was seeking. In any event, you're not helping anything.

Second of all, I really get tired of people posting these rants as if someone single-handedly destroyed your life. This person wasted, what, fifteen or twenty minutes of your time? And really, not even that, since you were getting rewards up until the trial failed, so it's not like you came away completely empty-handed. How many trials have you failed in all, versus how many have been successful? If you're like me, one trial out of maybe 30 or so fails, and that's being generous. Sure, the number is a bit higher after a new trial is released and people are getting used to it, but all in all, I'm really tired of people complaining that something in the game is failable. You spend 99.99% of your time cutting through missions like a hot knife through butter because the game is so simple that there's a good chance that even the aforementioned four-year-old can be successful at it, but that 0.01% makes it all just a big, fat waste of time. Yeah, I don't buy it, and I don't have much sympathy.

Third of all, to those of you who are interpreting this anecdote as some sort of indication of a systemic design flaw of the trial or even the game, :epic eye roll:. If I set my mind to it, I could single-handedly make just about any experience in the game miserable for you. Sure, it would be griefing, and yeah, I might get a slap on the wrist or even banned, but if your standard of "playable" is defined by how little a dedicated griefer can screw you over, you might as well stop playing multiplayer games altogether. A better idea is to accept that griefers are out there, don't let them get to you, take sensible measures against them (that is, kicking them, one-starring them, petitioning them if necessary, etc.) and get on with your life.

Like I said, I understand your frustration. It's not like there haven't been moments when I yelled and gestured madly at my monitors because some putz has either intentionally or even unintentionally screwed me over and wasted a bit of time. But then I remember how much other people also make this game supremely enjoyable, that the threat of failure adds to the thrill of victory, and I realize that I wouldn't want it any other way. So to the OP: chill out, man. To everyone else: please stop feeding the negativity and trying to get the devs to make the game one giant "I win!" button. It's already too easy as it is.


We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)

 

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Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
I've never dealt with Telepathists in any run I've done, but for the first stage with the cameras, I've made a point of making a version of my main power tray that has all the non-ST powers removed, just so I don't accidentally hit the wrong power and destroy a camera (I did it once, and it wasn't a big deal and didn't really hurt us much at all, but that was enough for me).
I am with you Gob.. the group I run trials with stopped messing with telepaths long ago and just moves from building to building taking down technicians until we score po victories. Unlike you I dont remove anything from tryas. mainly because I can use them inside buildings, but I seperate single target from aoes and cones.

Also like you our group realized a while back that the destruction of the odd camera is almost inevitable.. come on we are fifty levels and the cameras are one levels LOOK at them wrong and they will explode. The destruction of a camera here and there doesnt spell defeat it just adds a little more time outside before heading into tpn for the first time. AND .. when you start to battle Maelstrom outside if you wait for the civilians to clear, once the public opinion victory is anounced formally, the civs all disappear and you can use any attack you like outside because the only out there to hit is the AV and the IDF that resond to reinforce him.

The way we attack a tpn trial after that initial battle outside, the ONLY one where you need to concern yourself with cameras, there are rarely any times where players cant use all their attacks.


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