Why be a stalker?

Wrong.

It's the BEST reason to play an AT. Playing an AT JUST because it's powerful and can do thing X with it's hands tied behind it's back is the superficial reason. Not the feel.

In the end, does it really make a difference how powerful you are compared to other ATs if you're enjoying yourself playing it?

So what if you're not the most awesome thing to ever grace the game? If you're having fun, who cares?

That's something people often forget. It's a video game. It's supposed to be FUN. Playing a weaker AT that I enjoy is FAR more fun to me than playing a powerful one I hate. If you're playing a character simply because it's a good farmer, regardless of whether you like it, is pretty dumb in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Well said, Claws. This is why I have 1 Mastermind (Demon/Poison, 2 Controllers (Earth/Sonic and Ill/Emp), and 257* sub-optimal**, but fun as hell characters.

This is a game. Play it. I have a job to work at.

*numbers may be slightly exaggerated for effect
**I don't think I have a "power" combo of Primary/Secondary in any AT.

It makes me chuckle that the title is an arguement on why/why not to play an AT and the arguement your refering to is an arguement about why we like to play stalkers. As Claws and Errant said, the only reason to play ANY archetype is how much fun you have with it. I personally play all ATs and have one of each at least in the mid 30s and several brutes at 50. All of the combos I have are because of FUN, not performance. Even my fire/ss was based on a supersaiyan idea, and was only used as a farmer after he was temporarily retired to work on alts.

Then the question should really be 'Why not be a Stalker?'

Because, then, we can actually give you the answers you're looking for...

You don't like the Hide mechanic? Okay, then Stalkers may not be for you although I hear some players downplay that part of the AT and simply use it for the free crit at the start and view it as a bonus.

You don't like AS? It's an acquired tasted. All my Stalkers use AS, some more than others and most of them in alternate action order. Some skip AS completely. It's only really gimping yourself if you have a use for an initial burst of damage that you have no trouble timing or aren't particularly attuned with sustained DPS.

They lack AoE? There are sets that do not and work arounds to get more AoE. Elec Melee, Kinetic Melee, Dual Blades, Spines, SJ has some, Spring attack, epic pools, judgement. Yes, some sets lack any AoE and others are deficient, but that's just those sets, not the AT itself.

Low survival? If a blaster can be made survivable, so can a stalker. Some sets are less reliant on outside bonuses to achieve comfortable survival, but the AT in general encompasses planning so that you don't *need* to be able to survive a lot of damage. Just seek means to kill foes before they can even react. And it may seem blasphemous but, in a situation where a Scrapper would jump in and have a 50% chance of coming out dead, a Stalker can decide to lower that chance through hit-and-run. That is, you're only in as much danger as you let yourself be put in...

Low DPS? Again, some sets just aren't great for this. Elec, Spines, sets like these are generally slow and lack high-end DPS but that doesn't exclude sets like MA, DM, SJ, Kat...just like Brutes and Scrappers, some sets are just going to shine differently than others. It's up to you to play up the sets' strengths or cover over the sets' weaknesses.

The only other reasons I could think of to not be a Stalker is some sort of inferiority complex. When you stand next to a Tanker, you'll feel squishier. When you stand next to a Brute, you'll feel like you lack AoE. When you stand next to a Corruptor, you'll feel your team contributions are crud.

But all that is 'feelings' and just superficial. It doesn't tell the whole story and it's uninformed but it seems to be the only point of interest you want to hit on. Wasting your time? How can you be 'wasting your time' anymore than you are sitting at a computer playing a video game? You could be at the gym, studying, feeding the hungry or curing cancer. By default, you're wasting your time. And you're wasting even more of your time asking us if playing a stalker is wasting your time. You could have already leveled it to 50 and found out yourself in the time it'd take you to get the answers you seek.

Not really.

Hide.
Assasin strike.
Placate.
Controlled crits (hide-crit-placate-crit)
Crit bonus on teams.
Ninjitsu

These are structural differences that make stalkers unique. If none of that catches your eye, no big deal. I only have a couple stalkers, but I think of them as scrappers + the abilities above. When I don't feel like using the abilities above, then scrapper all the way.

Like scrappers get a scaling critical chance based on the rank of their target, the bonus damage of AS could scale with the rank of the target. That's not a bad idea.

As for the lack of AoE, I guess I never really understood that argument. I've never rolled a brute or a scrapper for the AoE damage. If I wanted the best in AoE, why not play a blaster?

An issue I've been finding with assassin strike is that I always seem to be in a position where I'm rushed to get an AS out. If I don't hurry the mob I'm targetting is either killed before I can actually hit them, the target is knocked back, or some other event takes place that either neutralizes the AS or dimishes the value of it. I'm not sure why AS must take so much time to animate, be easily interrupted, and cost so much endurance all at once.

This seems especially true when a team is very AoE capable and large mobs disappear very rapidly.

We can thank PvP for that, I am sure. It would be nice if some of the tech they've developed for Titan Weapons could be applied to making Assassin Strike quicker in PvE.

If you're really in a situation where a boss is being killed by AoE in under 4 seconds then it hardly matters if AS animates in 3 seconds or in 1 second, the damage you do with it will be just as irrelevant to the performance of the team. And for a boss to be killed that fast by AoE, by the way, the LTs around it are being three-times overkilled by the same AoE. The minions, up to six times overkilled (worse if the boss had higher resistance to that damage). In other words, the team is ridiculously overpowered as compared to the challenge. The problem there is not really Assassin Strike.

That's probably true. These teams seem more and more common as levels go up. The problem with that though, I seem to be able to utilize stealth and assassin strike less and less. I have to rush ahead of the team over and over to try and get prepared to get an AS out if I want to have a chance to use it. It was far less an issue on lower level teams. If these are considered core powers for a stalker is there not a better way to ensure that they can be utilized more regularly on any team? Or is it always going to be a game of trying to stay two steps ahead of the rest of the team?

Taking a foe "out of the fight" is fine for threat postponement but it doesn't end the fight. Until everything is dead, the team doesn't move on. So who can make a boss dead the fastest? This is something Stalkers are actually good at. Given enough time, a Scrapper can catch up and pass a Stalker in most sustained DPS situations, but the boss is likely dead before that happens and it can even be the case if there are enough allies around that the Scrapper *can't* out-DPS the Stalker against a single-target.

What kind of teams are you talking about here? Are they PuG mission/tip/task force teams or are they farms? Farms I could believe are more likely to be built for speed and, typically, fulcrum shift for the insane AoE. But at least with the PuGs I find on Virtue, I don't find it very common to be on a steamroller. Or at least people are willing to run at +1 or above and aren't really able to chew through a 2500 point (plus resistances) boss with just AoE in under 4 seconds. At any rate, I usually have plenty of time to get to a boss and put an AS into it. Then again, I tend to avoid team leaders advertising specific needs because I figure they are usually trying to BUILD a steamroller and to me... those are just boring.

I also keep a set of macro buttons on hand to target bosses from various enemy groups. Or I just edit one I have on my bar, attached to a hotkey. Something like "targetcustomnext Master $$ targetcustomnext Mistress" for Carnies. Gets me all the Master Illusionists and Ring Mistresses out of a big mess of a spawn with one touch of the key. Combat Jumping + Hurdle puts me in front of them with a quick hop. I would say most of the time I am just landing next to my target to begin the AS as the team is aggroing the spawn. So I am not that much ahead of the action.

Actually, since I just mentioned Carnies, that's one situation where I sometimes do exit a fight early to get to the next spawn. I do that to time the phasing of Master Illusionists. It's great to take one out before they can even summon pets. Wait for them to phase out. Count 1. Hit Build Up. Hit Assassin Strike. It'll hit them just after they phase in. Course that's risky timing if the rest of your team is delayed. Fortunately, Ninjitsu soft-capped is pretty safe from Carnies and their psi damage.

A scrapper: 100% build up with higher base damage. You forget the Interrupt time on Assassin strike.

If by that you mean the chance of being interrupted then yes, I am not counting interrupts. It is extremely rare that I am ever interrupted on an opening Assassin Strike which is about the only time I ever use it. If you're not interrupted, you will jump out to an early lead in an ST damage contest vs. a Scrapper that the Scrapper's higher base damage has to catch up to. All depends how long the boss lasts. Also depends how much of a crit boost the Stalker is getting as to how fast (or even if) the Scrapper can catch up.

I'm not saying it's a huge difference. Anyone can do damage. It's not a unique or special role to fill on a team. But it is a role you can fill. And practically speaking, I am usually not in a race with ANYONE to kill a boss because everyone else is usually in a race to see who can overkill the trash minions with their AoE first.

Yes... and no. (Thoughts and examples taken from a Claws/Will, DM/SR, and an EM/Self-Empathy since they are the only "finished" Stalkers I've got)

On a large team (6-8), that's steam-rolling content, I've found it best to be a Scrapper, just also able to spam Placate for controlled Crits/pissing off my squishies. AS only ever comes out of the tool-box when there's an AV, and it's generally always done after a Placate... NOT out of Hide. Exception being my EM/Self-Empathy, who has a specific build for Cap SF's. He usually has the (mis?)fortune of being the most resilient, so the team will wait for him to AS, and then hopefully their massed fires steal enough aggro for me to live.

On a smaller team (3-5), AS comes into play more, but it's more of a feeling and goes with how the team is rolling/what faction we are fighting against. Again, liberal use of Placate to give me that controlled Crit.

Oft times I'll duo with my wife, which usually results in me AS'ing every spawn, getting the soft-lockdown from Fear, and then scrapping away. However, the Claws/Will breaks this MO, since Shockwave is Damage and Mitigation, and is the general opener unless the mobs are KB Resistant.

Solo... who cares? I'm solo. Usually AS is used every spawn though, since it makes me giggle.

Levelling, AS has a much larger presence, even with my sometimes AS'ing when not in Hide, because I've no other powers, and one AS is still stronger than 3 Brawls. Yeah, it loses utility in higher levels, when you've gotten more attacks, and the set-up means it can get drowned out in a fast moving team, but it is still useful, all the way to 50 and beyond (don't really know about beyond yet, my 2 50 Stalkers have Alpha unlocked, but that's about it).

AS is not the only thing unique to stalkers. Don't forget placate. Placate is a melee stealth. In a steamroller, leverage the initial crit out of hide, placate, crit and move to the next spawn. With my dark/dark if I only had 4 seconds per spawn I would buildup MG, placate, tab, SL. and get moving to the next. Maybe toss out a smite if there was one straggler. I'm making two stealthed attacks instead of 1 stealthed attack, neither is AS and unlike a scrapper I will have a 100% crit rate while doing this.

If you really have more than 4 seconds, then you have enough time to AS if you want to.

Also Leo is fond of pointing out that AS is not just good for openers. Think about paragon protectors, Minotaurs, fake nemesis, and heros with T9 powers. Save the AS not as an opener, but to get them before they godmode to prevent it. Again, something that gives a stalker an advantage over many (not all) scrappers.

Try testing a Stalker versus a Scrapper on an Elite Boss or an AV. And even then, I don't believe single target DPS is the heart of the issue with Stalkers.

The DPS a Scrapper provides is only about 1/2 of their effectiveness to the team. The majority of them also provide a taunt aura that causes that elite boss or AV to target them instead of the squishy Corr or Blaster behind you. It always amazes me how the debate around Stalkers never mentions taunt auras or aggro control.

Now, Stalkers shouldn't be given a taunt aura, mind you, but they should be given something equally as advantageous to teams they are on. And I wouldn't want to see them be made the kings of AoE either, that's not the role. The issue always has been rooted the fact that they underperform at the role they've been given, zero aggro control single target assassination.

Make them a true 10/10 in Melee on the AT chart shown in the character creator screen. Honestly, I don't think that would upset the AT balance in the slightest.

And again, they work well enough in their current state, I'm just advocating a buff to the AT. Scale their AS up based on the rank of the target. Make it animate faster. Make them the undisputed highest ST DPS AT. If they're going to shed aggro to other members of the team, and not going to leverage the advantage of AoEing multiple targets at once, make them shred through single targets.

I like Stalkers because they remind me of blappers razor edge playstyle in some ways, but they are still capable just like scrappers.

Brutes and Scrappers are pretty much cruise control for the most part, and it starts to bore me.

With a Stalker, I have to change my approach depending on the scenario. Do I want to start with AS out of hide? Open up with another attack, placate, then AS? Or save AS to use before the enemy enters a God Mode? Do I AS the sapper, or the gunslinger?

The tactical and strategic play of Stalker-dom gives me a tingly feeling!

9 Scrapper Secondaries, 3 with Taunt auras. Not a Majority.

However, Scrappers do have a higher base Threat Level (3 versus 2), and with their higher damage and how threat mechanics work, they will pull aggro from a Stalker, even if the Stalker is doing identical DPS.

Stalkers do have a higher Threat Level then Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders and Dominators. So, it should be easier, barring AI aggro tweaks (Healer/Mezzer Aggro routines), than trying to take Aggro off of Blasters, Epic AT's, and Masterminds (all tied at 2 with Stalkers).

Not much of a point for them to try with Tanks or Brutes, since they both have a Threat Level of 4, and Punch-voke.

Also, Super Speed lowers Threat Level by 1. Something else to consider when trying to "tank" on a Stalker.

Ah, I suppose you are right. I forgot as I most often play Brutes and all my Scrappers take provoke.

Doesn't Scrapper /EA have taunt too?