Suggestion: STOP ADDING AMBUSHES TO EVERY DAMN MISSION
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-10-16 04:39 in Suggestions and Ideas
It make the Mission more Harder, which I like, I think it's not a bad idea, just prepare yourself before saving someone or clicking that glowie.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Funny how people get upset at ambushes but aren't the least bit bothered by being able to lay the smack down on some baddies within plain sight of other bad guys and they never sound an alarm.
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NPCs can be set to auto-aggro and follow.
Players AFK can't due to botting restrictions.
Multiple waves of NPCs have a greater aggregate Endurance and Health pool than any PC.
NPCs don't take bio breaks.
Players do.
And it's not that people are upset by ambushes. Merely that they feel that, currently, the ambush mechanic is overused both within individual missions and across the current spectrum of new mission arcs.
After a while it becomes almost as aggravatingly repetitive, time-wasting, and mind-numbing as the Numina hunts.
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I dunno, those Skulls you occasionally see just standing around facing into the corner between the stoop and the front wall of the brownstones in Kings Row... what do you think those guys are doing? Checking out the parging on the top step? |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
NPCs don't take bio breaks.
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If I want to sit and watch others do things, I'll rent a movie, not log into COH. (Much the same reason I mostly stopped playing my Bots/FF mastermind.) |
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
the ambushs were pretty awful till i realized they were A) easy to avoid and B) your given a bunch of invincible allies that also help fight with you, so if you avoid the ambush you can let them do most of the work
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Originally Posted by forbin project
Funny how people get upset at ambushes but aren't the least bit bothered by being able to lay the smack down on some baddies within plain sight of other bad guys and they never sound an alarm.
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Originally Posted by GreenFlame
It make the Mission more Harder, which I like, I think it's not a bad idea, just prepare yourself before saving someone or clicking that glowie.
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What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Funny how people get upset at ambushes but aren't the least bit bothered by being able to lay the smack down on some baddies within plain sight of other bad guys and they never sound an alarm.
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I should point out that I don't think the game is capable of doing functionally "endless" ambushes. Every single mission I've so far heard listed as having endless ambushes doesn't. It just usually has between 10 and 15 of them. Yes, I counted. There are a lot of missions that, if you try to run them while ambushes are spawning, will end up feeling like they're endless because they're such a pain, but my solution is to pick a spot where I can blindside the ambush easily and simply take ambushes out one by one. At least when they have the courtesy of not spawning so fast they stack.
I'm not saying that as a good or a bad thing, just putting it out there. Endless ambushes aren't.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't disagree that ambushes can be aggravating at times, and make no sense when you are stealthed, but it doesn't stop me from also being amused when I see people complaining about them.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
NPCs can be set to auto-aggro and follow.
Players AFK can't due to botting restrictions. Multiple waves of NPCs have a greater aggregate Endurance and Health pool than any PC. NPCs don't take bio breaks. Players do. And it's not that people are upset by ambushes. Merely that they feel that, currently, the ambush mechanic is overused both within individual missions and across the current spectrum of new mission arcs. After a while it becomes almost as aggravatingly repetitive, time-wasting, and mind-numbing as the Numina hunts. |
As to players that go AFK inside missions, I feel they deserve to get ganked. Missions are supposed to be hostile environments not vacation resorts where thet can park while they take care of real life issues.
And what exactly happens when you die in the game?
Do we have to replace damaged equipment?
No.
Do we get robbed by other players when we drop our stuff?
No.
Do our enhancements get less effective?
No.
Do we incur a Death Penalty to our ability to fight?
No.
Do we lose a level or experience?
No.
Do we have to reroll a new character?
No.
So what happens again when our characters die?
Oh that's right, we get some debt that has to be worked off. Big frelling deal. Debt has been so trivialized in this game it's about as useful as rent on bases.
But that's another opinion and you can feel free to disagree with it.
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I think it's to do with being able to limit how much you can take on yourself. You can purposely go around and aggro the entire room, or you can be careful and take on one group at a time. The same with difficulty settings. Ambushes, especially several stacking or a continuous stream of ambushes, take that control away from you, which can be fun on the right character, or just painful on the wrong one. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Funny how people get upset at ambushes but aren't the least bit bothered by being able to lay the smack down on some baddies within plain sight of other bad guys and they never sound an alarm.
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Personally, I generally don't mind ambushes, but I really, really HATE the ones that are overused lately in the newer arcs: the ones where you beat a boss down to 1/4 health, they go friendly, and open up a big dialog window full of text (which I'd like to read!), and then an ambush spawns 10 feet behind them! Grrrrrr!
/em smackdev
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Originally Posted by Remmet
I think it's to do with being able to limit how much you can take on yourself. You can purposely go around and aggro the entire room, or you can be careful and take on one group at a time. The same with difficulty settings. Ambushes, especially several stacking or a continuous stream of ambushes, take that control away from you, which can be fun on the right character, or just painful on the wrong one.
Personally, I generally don't mind ambushes, but I really, really HATE the ones that are overused lately in the newer arcs: the ones where you beat a boss down to 1/4 health, they go friendly, and open up a big dialog window full of text (which I'd like to read!), and then an ambush spawns 10 feet behind them! Grrrrrr! /em smackdev |
But isn't facing overwhelming odds one of the things we like about our favorite super heroes? Sure they get their butts kicked but they persevere. And isn't it just like a nemesis to try and distract the hero while signalling for help to jump him from behind when he's talking and not paying attention?
I don't know, maybe I'm nuts for looking at the ambushes as an immersive tool that brings my characters more to life.
I for one really enjoy the ambushes. It not just forced me to focus entirely on the game (something i have an issue with sometimes, ADHD is mostly to blame there) but it also lets me 'field test' my characters.
I build almost all my characters in mids before i play them, then work my way up to the mids build as i level them up, this lets me get a feel for the character before i spend billions on a build, and because of that i don't always get to field test the characters. If i can handle X number of ambushes on a SOs build that follows similar enhancement values as my IO build, then my character is working out great. If i can't, then i need to rethink the approach i'm doing.
After taking another character completely through Praetoria recently, I was once again reminded of how tedious ambushes can really be.
The use of "lengthy" ambushing (more than 3 waves or so) against relatively young characters is just plain thoughtless. These characters are susceptible to wasted endurance through missed attacks, and they seldom have ways to manage their health. This issue is exacerbated by having a small inspiration inventory.
There are a couple instances in Praetoria that come to mind as being particularly problematic - there were times when my character was low on health, gasping for breath, and out of inspirations after just the second wave. Whose idea was it to make these ambushes crank out, in some cases, more than a dozen with almost no reprieve between waves? Have these mission designers ever played the game without using /devcommands?
It would be nice if the devs could implement a system that guaranteed inspirations for defeating ambushes, but I suspect there might be some technical hurdles there. Of course, if I had my way we'd just get rid of training/dual-origin type enhancers, and that would solve a lot of problems right off the bat, but I'm sure that's even less likely than guaranteed inspiration drops.
In any case, I will side with the "Ambush is a tool that should be used discreetly and sparingly" camp.
"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend
/signed. Too bad the devs will never see this.
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Do note that while this is a comic-book based (or inspired) GAME, it is not, in fact, a comic BOOK. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
But isn't facing overwhelming odds one of the things we like about our favorite super heroes? Sure they get their butts kicked but they persevere. And isn't it just like a nemesis to try and distract the hero while signalling for help to jump him from behind when he's talking and not paying attention?
I don't know, maybe I'm nuts for looking at the ambushes as an immersive tool that brings my characters more to life. |
In a comic book, the authors will throw a ton of baddies at HeroPerson and specifically craft how the fight goes. Does he need to fight his (or her, but I'm going to stick with his for this) way through to show he's a badass? Does he need to get beaten down to be dragged in front of EvilDude for a tacky monologue? Does he need to get killed as a directive of Marketing so he can be brought back ten issues later? He will.
A *Game,* however, doesn't have a reader - it has *players.* People who they need to keep around to continue making money from so they stay in business. One way to NOT do that is to take things to extremes and irritate the LIVING HELL out of their players.
See, if I *wanted* to wade into the middle of a ton of bad guys, I would. I'd set my difficulty that high on the appropriate characters, made sure I had inspirations, and go to town. I do not want that choice made FOR me, though, by way of ridiculous numbers of ambushes. Nor, frankly, do I want it made for my by "helper" NPCs who aggro anything in a mile radius instead of getting their collective rear in gear and following me to whatever they're supposed to go to. My character is not scripted for "we'll have this happen for this outcome." It is *played.* By *me.* For *Entertainment.*
If I wanted annoyance, I'd move back in with my ex, not log in to COH.
I quite like them personally. I've liked them in both SSAs, I like them in other content too.
Mind you I tend to play characters which can prepare nasty surprises for them anyway.
"Why hello angry spawn, as you can see I've laid out a few welcomes for you."
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Says who? I've spent over 5 years playing CoH and being able to do a bit of a mission, park my toon, gomake a cuppa or have a cigarette break, come back and continue. I've seen parents commenting on how they like it because if the baby cries they can just retreat to a cleared area and no problem. If my doorbell rings, I can click back thru that elevator and i'm safe. They have taught us that safe and steady and player choice and 'at your own pace' is the design for the majority of the game's life.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
As to players that go AFK inside missions, I feel they deserve to get ganked. Missions are supposed to be hostile environments not vacation resorts where thet can park while they take care of real life issues.
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And what exactly happens when you die in the game? |
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Oh that's right, we get some debt that has to be worked off. Big frelling deal. Debt has been so trivialized in this game it's about as useful as rent on bases. But that's another opinion and you can feel free to disagree with it. |
If I die in that situation, ganked by a mob essentially, and I have to go to the hospital, then the narrative is borked, and frequently in First Ward the mission entries are the contacts themselves, who give you the exact same mission briefings when you go back to them to re-enter the mission. It makes no sense.
Some have said 'well, just toggle up and inspir before you click the glowie then'. The problem with that is,we don't know at any stage what exactly is going to trigger an ambush, so it's possible I might eat a tray of Lucks and click a glowie only to have nothing happen. I have a similar problem with the bosses that give up half way through for a chat. Since it's likely that Johnny Ambush might think it great fun to force 5 pages of conversation on me and THEN ambush me, I find myself tempted to skim thru the text really quickly so that my inspirs don't run out before I have to fight again.
I think the main problem is that there's no consistency to the new ambush paradigm, so it's difficult for those who dislike it to forge a consistent strategy for it. Players like to control their game as much as possible, and this situation takes away that control.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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See, I've noticed that they add MORE text and MORE story elements, in addition to more ambushes. I think, rather than trying to forsake reading, they are trying to make you read super fast. Kind of like if you had to recite hamlet while under mortar fire during WW2.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I'm sick of clicking a glowie, having a clue drop, and immediately a frikking ambush teleports in and kills me. Some of us want to take the game at our own pace, it's why we loved this game way back before the devs turned into 'reading is for squares' types who only seem to want to cater to the 'waargh moar xp pls!' crowd.
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Says me. |
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Says who?
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You even quoted me as saying it. See the very first line in the quote?Quote:
| Originally Posted by Forbin_Project |
That's me. I'm Forbin_Project.
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Allow me: Not everyone cares about the systemic technicalities of a numbers-based system. Some people - myself included - simply don't like to lose, and when I get beaten down by what can sometimes amount to 50 people at a time (hello, Ghoul Waves in every mission they show up) is not my idea of fun. I don't care if I get Paragon Points every time I die, I still don't want that to happen because it means I've LOST. If I can recover, sure. That's what Rise of the Phoenix is for. But if I have to go to the hospital, then this is wasteful and humiliating.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Oh that's right, we get some debt that has to be worked off. Big frelling deal. Debt has been so trivialized in this game it's about as useful as rent on bases.
But that's another opinion and you can feel free to disagree with it. |
You talk about ambushes as an "immersive tool" out one side of your mouth and yet dismiss defeat as an immersive tool out the other.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
But isn't facing overwhelming odds one of the things we like about our favorite super heroes?
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Having occasions of extreme difficulty to make our characters even more badass for defeating a worthy challenge is one thing. Having extreme difficulty tossed at us every damn mission is quite another.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I don't know, maybe I'm nuts for looking at the ambushes as an immersive tool that brings my characters more to life.
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It's not immersive. It's lazy.
Every single mission ever made can have "... and then lots of enemies rush in!" appended to it as a finisher and still makes sense. Like any gimmick, it's only good when used sparingly. When overused, it starts getting annoying.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Pretty much this. If I wanted to face ambushes of constant mobs there is a difficulty slider for that.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Allow me: Not everyone cares about the systemic technicalities of a numbers-based system. Some people - myself included - simply don't like to lose, and when I get beaten down by what can sometimes amount to 50 people at a time (hello, Ghoul Waves in every mission they show up) is not my idea of fun. I don't care if I get Paragon Points every time I die, I still don't want that to happen because it means I've LOST. If I can recover, sure. That's what Rise of the Phoenix is for. But if I have to go to the hospital, then this is wasteful and humiliating.
You talk about ambushes as an "immersive tool" out one side of your mouth and yet dismiss defeat as an immersive tool out the other. No, it's not. DEFEATING overwhelming odds is what I like about my heroes, because that's what makes them badass. Getting dogpiled, beaten to death and humiliated isn't what I look for in a hero. If I wanted a "humble" experience, I wouldn't play a game where I can make an 8-foot-tall giant robot. Having occasions of extreme difficulty to make our characters even more badass for defeating a worthy challenge is one thing. Having extreme difficulty tossed at us every damn mission is quite another. Ambushes are not an immersive tool any more so than "Influence" is. It's development shortcut, and this one is of the lowest kind. They're the one-size-fits-all solution to every problem. Don't know what to do with your mission to make it better? Toss ambushes in it. Don't know what to do with your story to make it more immersive? Toss ambushes in it. Don't know what to do with you ... to make it more ...? Toss ambushes in it. It's not immersive. It's lazy. Every single mission ever made can have "... and then lots of enemies rush in!" appended to it as a finisher and still makes sense. Like any gimmick, it's only good when used sparingly. When overused, it starts getting annoying. |
Tone it down.
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You know, maybe it would be a good idea if the difficulty slider could allow us to set whether or not we want ambushes in instanced missions at all, and also how many ambushes we want per instance.
And that knob should go all the way up to 11, so that the moment you enter a mission door, you're assaulted by wave after wave of enemies that don't stop charging at you for... what, a good five minutes? Yeah.
Play that at +4/x8! Glorious.
It does seem sometimes that, since the advent of GR, the Devs have only one storytelling tool and everything looks like a nail. The SSAs (so far) do, thankfully, change this up with some truly novel mechanics... but First Ward is set in Ambushtoria, and "fittingly", it's All Ambushes All The Time. I don't know how I would have made it through if I wasn't playing a brute, but I'm not eager to find out.
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That's precisely what the problem is. Ambushes, in and of themselves, are not a bad mechanic. They're as legitimate as patrols. However, they seem to be just about the only mechanic the developers consistently use in practically EVERY new mission they make, and not only are too many ambushes too hard to deal with, the system itself begins to drag when it's overused.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
It does seem sometimes that, since the advent of GR, the Devs have only one storytelling tool and everything looks like a nail. The SSAs (so far) do, thankfully, change this up with some truly novel mechanics... but First Ward is set in Ambushtoria, and "fittingly", it's All Ambushes All The Time. I don't know how I would have made it through if I wasn't playing a brute, but I'm not eager to find out.
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I bring you back to Longbow: They are not a bad enemy group. They have distinctive costumes, a storyline which ties them to the Freedom corps and they have good writing, generally. Then you get to Nerva Archipelago and you have to fight Longbow for 10 level straight. And then you never want to see Longbow again. A slice of cake is tasty. A whole cake for every meal of every day for a year is disgusting.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I agree that ambushes are overused. Yes, if I'm on a Brute, facing off against hordes of villains coming to get me is fun, likewise on a team. But there's too many in Praetoria and too many in First Ward.
So, in an effort to keep things constructive, what other tools would we like to see more often? For me, I really like the 'get out of here before the place goes up' mechanic. I often run the Roy Cooling arc just for the thrill of the mission when the building starts burning and you're trying to get yourself and your captive out of the place. Doubly so if I go for the 'No Man Left Behind' badge.
Personally, I'll settle for some damn good writing and less gimmicks but if we really do have to have big shiny things, what other ones could do with being used more often?
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There was an Architect Mission I played a long while ago, and I wish I could remember the name so that people reading this could check it out, but it was fairly popular anyway so I imagine a good deal of you probably know exactly which one I'm talking about. Anyway, it was a very small room, and when you entered the mission dialogue pop-up box thingy had a riddle for you, and there were some glowies in the room you entered, each one named a possible answer to the riddle. Get the right one and, yay, mission completed... Get the WRONG one however and... well, you don't want to get the wrong one.
I would greatly like more missions like THAT. Text and Story are great, beating things to an inch of their life is fun, but I really feel like this game needs some puzzle, or possibly stealth options every couple of missions.
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That's not an Architect mission, it's one of Vincent Ross missions. Specifically, the mission to infiltrate a Midnight Squad building. Each floor has multiple portals. One leads to the next floor and all the others dump you in a room with about 30 Spectral Demon lieutenants scaled at +1 to the mission. It was a clever idea, but it's also fairly easy to just check ParagonWiki for the solution.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
There was an Architect Mission I played a long while ago, and I wish I could remember the name so that people reading this could check it out, but it was fairly popular anyway so I imagine a good deal of you probably know exactly which one I'm talking about. Anyway, it was a very small room, and when you entered the mission dialogue pop-up box thingy had a riddle for you, and there were some glowies in the room you entered, each one named a possible answer to the riddle. Get the right one and, yay, mission completed... Get the WRONG one however and... well, you don't want to get the wrong one.
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In my opinion, dialogue trees are something that the game is simultaneously using WAY too much and not using nearly enough. That dichotomy comes from the fact that dialogue trees are never complex or branching enough to be meaningful, and usually end up constituting little more than a multi-page text screen.
However, if done right, dialogue trees could probably carry entire missions on their own. Remember once upon a time when those "choose your own adventure" books used to be all the rage? Well, those were entire "games" comprised of nothing more than combination of choice trees and event triggers. In fact, I remember reading one where even the combat was handled purely by choosing options.
A strong, variable dialogue tree could take as much writing, planning and work as an entire mission, but I feel having that would be worth it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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After the 'how was school, honey?' etc, I logged back in, and selected the same toon, clicked to enter the game knowing I was stood right next to Vanessa with no NPCs in sight. I went into the kitchen to make a cuppa.
When i got back, there were two Talon archers stood a little way off and I was dead. Not happy about that.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)