What Origin is Lady Grey?

I would think it would have more to do with the fact that having one character be the leader of two separate groups, the Vanguard and Dawn Patrol, would just be weird and confusing than anything else.

All of the useful, non-hint information about her is gleaned from the comics, some dev posts (or Manticore lore posts, I miss those so much), and as said earlier a calendar claiming her date of birth. Really the only big thing of note is that she's essentially immortal by way of stealing life force. Nothing else, such as on the morality of that act, is ever explored of it. Maybe that's why she's so secretive though.

This stance is a pet peeve of mine, because lots of folks on the forums here talk about how Incarnates = magic or that Incarnate status overrides your original origin or somesuch. Maybe they do simply have legitimate dislike of the concept, but it often sounds like they've misinterpreted the real heart of the Well (or at least to me they have, or maybe I just have a nice-sounding misinterpretation myself) and all of its interconnected elements (Pandora's Box in Web of Arachnos, the "power grid" that connects all powers in power proliferation, etc.).

Also, despite its potential universality, the Well may not be 100% compatible with every single possible character concept. But then, the game as a whole isn't either.

If the Well really needs a one-word origin summary, the closest thing might be "Cosmic". But even that implies the wrong thing to me. The Well might best be described as a slice of Fate, one solely concerning the interplay of power and morality.

It's the inspiration that allowed the perfect android to be built. The genetic miracle that results in a mutant being able to shoot fire out of his hands. The happy accident that made that burst of a radiation turn her into X-Ray Lass rather than killing her. It's the willpower and drive that allows the martial artist to punch holes in solid rock. It's the faith and control that allows the sorcerer to summon spirits.

Instead of being some bog-standard divine intervention, it's simply an underlying force that is fuel for all five origins. Besides, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And vice versa.

Now, you may feel like this cheapens a character's origins, and I can't entirely blame you. But it's not a hard thing to ignore, since it mainly only comes up in Incarnate content and the occasional gentle nudge here and there. To me though, it's like getting mad at quantum physics. The Well is just a function of the universe, albeit apparently sentient and recently(?) gone crazy.

And even I dislike parts of the story surrounding it. Like the aforementioned sentient and crazy part. It dawns on me that maybe this what they're going for - what was once an inherent universal law is now picking and choosing who gets the goodies in some insane meritocracy. It would be also neat to see competing Wells of power, that all operate under different rules.

In another case, Lore pets felt like a case of them writing themselves into a corner, needing to justify how one could summon and control things that should normally be uncontrollable by players, like Seers, and thus was born the "spirits from the Well" angle. Perhaps it was a case of them desiring flash (cool pets!) over substance (more primal, abstract pets like some of the few we have now, which would also unfortunately overlap with Controller pets).

But the short of it is, I think the Well is not simply magic nor does it muck up the existing five origins, instead it enhances them to new levels. Possibly even to dangerous new levels.

*cough* Not to go off on a tangent or anything. Maybe I should start a fresh thread about this...

This, totally.

It also lets the martial artist shoot lightning from his hands and summon the spirits of defeated enemies. A purely 'natural' human is never going to do that. Your idea that the Well is simply some sort of underlying law of the universe is flat out contradicted by in-game text that invariably describes the well and incarnation in terms that can only be described as magical.

Now to break things down:

And as I also said, how they handled Lore pets was problematic, and continues to be to some degree. It never should've been spirits, but that was the only logical way to have the Praetorian pets they started with. Mind you, this is conjecture, but it's the more palatable option over them just not knowing how to integrate story and mechanics in a way that doesn't upend player concepts.

Taken one way, this is essentially saying "My character concept is that they can't be an Incarnate, therefore they can't be an Incarnate!". I've seen a few posts here and there that did basically boil down to that.

However, I'd have to wonder how this purely natural human ever got to level 50 in the first place, since a purely natural human would've been shot to death by the first Hellions they saw after stepping out into Atlas Park. Let's keep in mind that by the time you've hit 50, your "purely natural" character has also kung-fu'd giant robots, dodged magical spells, and crossed the dimensional barrier like it was a jump-rope, among many other very unnatural things.

This also gets tangled up in the oft-debated meaning of Origins, assuming that's what you're talking about when you say Natural. Without getting into it too much, a Natural character has merely gotten their start (or the start of their powers) through some natural process, such as weight training or just an inherent quality of their species (Peacebringers are Natural). As said above, this doesn't stop them from reaching unnatural heights of skill or power.

On top of all of that, I don't discredit the lore based on the faults of the mechanics. The lack of physical Judgement powers is a real flaw. But, in terms of story, there's no difference between an Incarnate with just the Alpha slot and one teeming with wild and wacky powers. In other words, Incarnates are not defined by their ability to call down huge bolts of lightning or summon ghosts of robots, they are simply defined as individuals who have taken their power beyond the normal threshold using the favor of the Well.

And there's really nothing stopping you from picking and choosing what Incarnate powers suit your concept. If I had a pure martial artist who has no reason to call in elemental forces, I would simply skip Judgement entirely. This does get a bit ugly with Incarnate Shifts, but you can always just create the power for the Shift and just otherwise ignore it, and again, I'm not willing to conflate lore with flawed mechanics.

I'm working off of all of the mentions of the Well I can recall, such as the Web of Arachnos novel. But if we want to stick with in-game material, here are the choice bits from Mender Ramiel's arc:

Interestingly, these statements echo the original given origin of Statesman, which was that he had unlocked some sort of inner power through Eastern secrets. Yes, he still could fly then too. This was eventually retconned, but prior to that we had a pure natural character who could do unnatural things. Additionally, Web of Arachnos implies that the Well pushed Statesman and Recluse to the peak of human potential (vastly increased senses, intelligence, and absolute perfect fitness) as its first step, before States could fly or Recluse grew his spider arms. But back to in-game stuffs..

Implying multiple methods of gaining Incarnate power. Probably referencing the slow versus fast paths, but could be read to be deeper than that.

This is clunkily written, but it points towards the idea that the Incarnate path can change to suit any origin. You're not necessarily gaining "Super Duper Magic Well Tonic", but gaining new insight into things you never knew or understood before.

While this is referring to a magical sword, and what was a Fast Path Incarnation, I just want to point out that this is showing that the Well's power can be infused into objects in addition to other forms.

Again, there's more than one way to become an Incarnate.

The artifact alters in response to your character.

Multiple sources, multiple wells, multiple paths.

And so on.

I don't really see anything there that pins it all on magic in the traditional sense. Really what I think it comes down to is if you personally lump mysticism, myth, the unknown, and a talking omnipotence wholly under the label of "Magic". But with all of the wiggle room that I think they intentionally left in, the Well could just as easily be an ancient alien consciousness, or a megalithic AI running on the computer that is the multiverse, or any other oddity. In fact, all of the intentional obtuseness implies that maybe the Well is supposed to be frustratingly outside the scope of our characters' knowledge, that it is something simply too vast and powerful to be fully understood in anything other than small chunks.

I guess what I'm saying is, in so many words, is that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, and vice versa.

I would indeed lump myth and mysticism (such as the Dianetics style "Unlocking your Inner Incarnate" stuff) under the term magic. I would say that the unknown is just that, the unknown. But if it's unknowable, that's magic. As for the talking omnipotence, I call that magic unless it's specifically something else. And if it turns out to be an uber-AI, that just means that incarnate powers are a subset of science origin, coming as they do from a Clarke level science.

Never believe it's not so.

Magic and technology can be seen as two sides of the same coin, from a certain point of view. Magic is the art of manipulating the universe through hidden means (hence the use of the word 'occult'). Technology is, quite literally, the study of an art, skill, or craft. Don't think that all magic is a few strange glowing symbols and some strange incantations, and that all technology is shiny metal, plastic and blinking lights; those are mere trappings.

Science came from magic, as humans learned more about the world around them and what was once a secret to us became revealed. We improved our methods of observing the universe; each new discovery yielded even more questions about why this is so and how that worked. We developed rules to ensure that we weren't fooling ourselves and to increase our certainty that we knew exactly why such a thing happened in such a way.

From a certain point of view, the difference between science and magic is really just a matter of semantics. But the proof, as some people say, is always in the results. That's probably why so many technological advances stem from scientific research.

If I go any further, I'll just wax even more anthropological, so I guess I'll stop here.

Out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean by 'unknowable' (if that question can be asked)? Do you mean the vast and incomprehensible, like Rularuu or some other lovecraftian horror?

The well as originally hinted? No problem it is simply the X factor in the CoH universe that lets a guy become a crime punching super boxer rather than some bum at the local gym, or invent a super powerful battle armour rather than a toaster, or get super powers from cellular mutation and not cancer.

But when such primal force of the setting becomes sentient and starts giving favours and notices to people? Magic.

Given that we are talking about super-powers of superheroes here, it's extremely easy to over simplify and state that everything is magic. Since they are supernatural by definition.

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

Hence the watery tart comments.

My main on Virtue is a cyborg who is a genetic clone of a once powerful faerie.

That is, a faerie was captured, and then a clone was made of her body. That body was given a whole lot of cybernetic implants (and limbs). The cybernetic clone of the faerie was then programmed and trained to be used as an agent for certain types of missions.

That cybernetic clone of a faerie eventually got loose and went rogue. She commands an army of robots and is herself an exceptional gadgeteer. Her inherent magic still lies mostly dormant, for now. But it does show up every now and then in some very subtle ways. She doesn't rely on it though, and doesn't trust it. She only trusts the things that she herself has built.

So, what's her real origin?

Yeah, I did make her tech origin in the game.

OK how about this one: I got another character who is a normal human. Her power armor is made with enchanted impervium. The suit gives her computer assisted targeting (among other things), but it's also imbued with magical energy.

I'd vote for that!

Unknowable means something that simply can never be explained or understood no matter how advanced our theoretical science becomes. Some of Lovecraft's creations would probably qualify, but other are more the product or users of Clarke level technology. Those are things which we are currently unable to understand, but might that might become comprehensible as our understanding of reality improves.

I think she can go make me a sammich and bring it to me on said tray.

Maybe she is Grey. Or an avatar of Grey.

Nah. I know Grey, and he'd never make a Dark/Dark Defender. However, he did make a BS/Dark Scrapper back in the day because he was sure they'd never nerf it.

+10 for effort, +4 for accuracy, -3 for precision.