Street Justice: Brute vs Stalker vs Scrapper
By
Angelic_EU,
Posted on: 2011-10-06 20:52 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Personally, I like StJ on a Stalker.
For note though: Batman is a Street Justice Stalker.
Just saying.
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BU>AS>Placate>CU>Burnout>BU>AS>Placate>CU
could be pretty fun!
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Personally, I like StJ on a Stalker.
For note though: Batman is a Street Justice Stalker. Just saying. |
SJ/Nin, no doubt.
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I love it on my Stalker (SJ/DM). Last night in the second Outcast base clearing mission, with 2 other team members, my toon put the fear of God on every foe around me when I made my assassination strike. When I had my combo 3 up and made my SC hit, POW down goes 5 foes. I am throughly impressed with this new power set. I'm now at 10th lvl and kicking butt taking names! Love it, love it, love it! |
Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
As far I can see so far, most people play the new Street Justice on a Scrapper. I made a StJ Brute and am thinking of try it on a Stalker.
Anyway, I am rather interested in know your views on this new set on the three available ATs. Something like, is it obviously better on a particular AT but not the other, etc. Thanks |
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
I know that the number crunchers say that it works out better on a scrapper. I do not know if that is the truth or not, but what I do know, after trying a Scrapper and a Brute with Street Justice, to me, it feels better on a Brute. Not to say it wasnt extremely effective as a Scrapper, but I like the Fury mechanic more than Criticals.
Either way, it is definitely a fun set.
Got more funky styles than my laserjet got font
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It is better on a Brute. The combo mechanic is enhanced by Fury but not by Criticals.|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Funk
I know that the number crunchers say that it works out better on a scrapper. I do not know if that is the truth or not, but what I do know, after trying a Scrapper and a Brute with Street Justice, to me, it feels better on a Brute. Not to say it wasnt extremely effective as a Scrapper, but I like the Fury mechanic more than Criticals.
Either way, it is definitely a fun set. |
It might be best on a Stalker though, don't know a lot about those guys.
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Depends how you play a Stalker. Those who regularly donate to the church of "AoE is Everything!!!11" tend not to believe in Assassin Strike and are therefore upset that AS is a combo builder and that Stalkers don't get the hybrid BU/Combo Builder that the other ATs get.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
It is better on a Brute. The combo mechanic is enhanced by Fury but not by Criticals.
It might be best on a Stalker though, don't know a lot about those guys. |
I kind of like it. Generally, there is a nice meaty target in any given spawn that is well worth Assassin Striking so you get a full Build Up (well, the 80% that Stalkers get at any rate), Demoralize AoE debuff, take a nice chunk out of that boss, get 2 combo points, and can either let loose that Spinning Strike right away or make a quick Initial Strike / Heavy Blow / Shin Breaker on the same boss and THEN drop SS at combo level 3.
I'm not there yet. My StJ Stalker is only 11. Looking forward to it though. Seems to be a decently hard-hitting set even if the criticals are not boosted by combo level. Still wish they were though, since Stalkers depend on them more than Scrappers.
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This has very little to do with whether it's actually better on brutes or scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
It is better on a Brute. The combo mechanic is enhanced by Fury but not by Criticals.
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I've seen way more street justice brutes than scrappers but, well, this has very little to do with whether it's actually better on brutes or scrappers.
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Well assuming the damage v survivability of Brutes and Scrappers are balanced in the first place, then taking a little bit of damage away on one side and taking nothing from the other shifts that balance.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
This has very little to do with whether it's actually better on brutes or scrappers.
I've seen way more street justice brutes than scrappers but, well, this has very little to do with whether it's actually better on brutes or scrappers. |
Whether the two ATs are balanced in general is the real question, it seems most people tend to agree that they are very, very close.
Let us see:
Stalkers lost rib cracker, one of the better combo builders and a -res debuff.
Stalkers cannot chain finishers like brutes, tanks, or scrappers due to having Build up.
AS for some arcane reason only gives 2 combo levels, forcing the use of another attack before a placate and finisher.
Street justice is definitely an after thought on stalkers like Dual blades.
Weakened port, to an already weaker AT says fail to me.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Well since assassin's strike gives two combo points it wouldn't make sense to give three with stalker build up as two of them would frequently be redundant. It would make sense to give that last point either to placate or to build up. Have you suggested this to synapse? Maybe he didn't think of it.
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Sorry man, but your 'woe is stalkers' routine is gettign really hold. Seriously.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Let us see:
Stalkers lost rib cracker, one of the better combo builders and a -res debuff. Stalkers cannot chain finishers like brutes, tanks, or scrappers due to having Build up. AS for some arcane reason only gives 2 combo levels, forcing the use of another attack before a placate and finisher. Street justice is definitely an after thought on stalkers like Dual blades. Weakened port, to an already weaker AT says fail to me. |
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It was suggested repeatedly in beta.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Well since assassin's strike gives two combo points it wouldn't make sense to give three with stalker build up as two of them would frequently be redundant. It would make sense to give that last point either to placate or to build up. Have you suggested this to synapse? Maybe he didn't think of it.
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When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
I can't speak to stalkers as I haven't tried the set on them or tankers, but regarding the brute vs scrapper pov, I don't yet know how they will feel at top level. Both my brute and scrapper are under 20, but the brute feels much more powerful, but that is mostly due to fury hugely distorting low level play. Once the scrapper gets to the level 30 range I have a feeling crits will start to catch up. I can't wait to see crushing uppercut crit.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Stalkers cannot chain finishers like brutes, tanks, or scrappers due to having Build up.
AS for some arcane reason only gives 2 combo levels, forcing the use of another attack before a placate and finisher. |
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| Syn: "There is no wrong way to build a combo except using a finisher in the middle of building a combo. An effective combo is Build Up, Assassin Strike, Placate, Shin Breaker, Crushing Uppercut. Or saving Build up and hitting Crushing Uppercut to just about kill a boss." |
As gives 2, placate gives NO combo levels buddy.
Edit I should have quoted you lol.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
corrected myself as the Dev Chat highlights were a tad misleading
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Really? I have not noticed. Matter of fact, the two stalkers (2 different servers) I have and currently playing are hell on wheels as far as I am concern. If you don't like the power, don't use it. Really, 3 no 4 days released and Street Justice is already considered a pariah of melee powers! Jeez...maybe if people changed their playing styles and deployment and employment of SJ, like one must with other powers, this wouldn't be so much as an issue. To each his own, I guess. <shrugs>
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Let us see:
Stalkers lost rib cracker, one of the better combo builders and a -res debuff. Stalkers cannot chain finishers like brutes, tanks, or scrappers due to having Build up. AS for some arcane reason only gives 2 combo levels, forcing the use of another attack before a placate and finisher. Street justice is definitely an after thought on stalkers like Dual blades. Weakened port, to an already weaker AT says fail to me. |
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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No, but a quick click on Initial Strike does thus remedying the issue. Unless, that is, you want to say that is a waste of time too? |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
As gives 2, placate gives NO combo levels buddy.
Edit I should have quoted you lol. |
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
You need to understand: I am not saying the set is unplayable.
Heck EM is playable. I am saying the stalker version is not as good as it's brothers. The devs had a cance to do something unique for stalker StJ like they did for KM. But instead they pulled a dual blades and left the set somewhat gutted.
I was hoping KM was the new standard in stalker ports.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
The set is hardly gutted, EM on the other hand...was gutted.
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Eh, that's true, but it's a fairly minor point in the grand scheme of things. Basically, you're looking at a ~20% loss to the crit damage of one attack out of every four. In other words, the net 25% bonus for combo level 3 isn't counted in crit numbers, but combo level 3 requires you to use three builder attacks that aren't affected at all by the quirk you describe.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
It is better on a Brute. The combo mechanic is enhanced by Fury but not by Criticals.
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And since crit damage only applies about 10% of the time, um, yeah.
I'm not saying StJ is better on Scrappers; I'm just saying that we're talking about a tiny edge either way.
Also, to the poster you quoted: if you were experimenting with the set on low-level characters, it's worth noting that Brutes are far and away the most damaging AT in the game in the lower levels, because:
- AT damage scalars don't normalize until something like level 22.
- The low-level game is balanced around TOs.
- Fury functions exactly the same way at level 1 that it does at level 50.
If you did compare them at higher levels, then great and more power to you; just thought I'd throw that explanation out there.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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This is actually mostly missing the real question:|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Well since assassin's strike gives two combo points it wouldn't make sense to give three with stalker build up as two of them would frequently be redundant. It would make sense to give that last point either to placate or to build up. Have you suggested this to synapse? Maybe he didn't think of it.
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If AS isn't a finishing move ... what the F*** is it then? Do the devs honestly intend enemies to survive it?
Play style for all primaries: a stalker uses placate buildup, as. AS is a finisher even in sets that have no combos. =)
Thinking about flow. BU-fin-com-com-com-fin is what the other ATs do.
Stalkers do bu-as-com-finish-com-com-com-finish. This is... silly. Not quite ridiculous, but definitely silly. I mean you can do BU-as-fin-com-com-com-fin. But I dunno if that's optimal, and either way, both stalker versions are inferior to the bu-fin-com-com-com-fin.
Beyond the bonuses being better for non-stalkers, it seems like that is a smoother feel. I haven't tried it both ways yet, so this is theory crafting and I would appreciate feedback from people with the hands on.
If AS was made a finisher and stalker BU gave 3 combo points just like everyone else's version then stalkers would have the same flow:
BU-AS-com-com-com-fin vs others bu-fin-com-com-com-fin
Plus, stalkers would have the option to skip AS and do bu-fin-com-com-com-fin exactly like everyone else.
I really don't understand, why AS is a builder not a finisher?
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Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I have an SJ brute, while FCM made an SJ stalker... Having seen both in action for a few levels now, I'd have to say that his is (at least at this point in their development-) punch-for-punch somewhat more dangerous than mine.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
It is better on a Brute. The combo mechanic is enhanced by Fury but not by Criticals.
It might be best on a Stalker though, don't know a lot about those guys. |
I'm not a number-cruncher, so I don't have combat logs or anything more substantial than observation to prove that, but just watching what they can do to goons? That stalker tends to chew through the Praetorian mobs a lot faster than my guy goes through blue-side Primal ones, even when my Time defender isn't throwing buffs on him.
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As far I can see so far, most people play the new Street Justice on a Scrapper. I made a StJ Brute and am thinking of try it on a Stalker.
Anyway, I am rather interested in know your views on this new set on the three available ATs. Something like, is it obviously better on a particular AT but not the other, etc.
Thanks