Street Justice: Brute vs Stalker vs Scrapper
By
Angelic_EU,
Posted on: 2011-10-06 20:52 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I think you may be underestimating how usefull the 2 combo points on AS are vs the 3 on build up. At first I kind of agreed with you, thinking that if they removed the 3 combo points from BU, they should have put 3 into AS (or 2 AS, 1 placate) but they I got to thinking about how OFTEN I could get those 2 combo points from AS - with a 15 second recharge VS 90, its going to be up a LOT more often than BU, which means you are going to be generating a lot more combo points in the long run. Having to fire off 1 more attack before a combo (or placate + combo) is not that big a deal. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
You need to understand: I am not saying the set is unplayable.
Heck EM is playable. I am saying the stalker version is not as good as it's brothers. The devs had a cance to do something unique for stalker StJ like they did for KM. But instead they pulled a dual blades and left the set somewhat gutted. I was hoping KM was the new standard in stalker ports. |
That plus the fact that CU does normal crits, unlike a lot of the higher end single target attacks, means I have 2 very hard hitting single target attacks (AS + CU), 2 decent AoE attacks and some nice builders. Seriously - at combo level 0 when you crit, CU does as much damage as energy transfer , at combo level 3 it does MORE. Oh, the set might have been a lot better if they had kept rib cracker instead of shin breaker - but its still a nice set, certainly as good as any stalker set out there if just in a different way.
EDIT: Cleaned up some phrasing to make things clearer
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
I think you might be overestimating the practicality of those combo points on AS.
Because AS is such a finicky power it isn't always a practical attack to use.
Also there are typically two ways a Stalker will use AS. Either after Build Up, or after a Placate.
Although I haven't played the set myself from what I've read the way Stalkers can build combo points run counter to how a Stalker will be using AS.
EDIT: This is exactly the same problem Stalker DB has. The combos run counter to how the AT is played.
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Agree 100%. I am just one of those people who actually like predictable nature of fury vs criticals. Both were played up to 20/21 before I stuck with one, which as you state is swayed toward brutes at those levels.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Eh, that's true, but it's a fairly minor point in the grand scheme of things. Basically, you're looking at a ~20% loss to the crit damage of one attack out of every four. In other words, the net 25% bonus for combo level 3 isn't counted in crit numbers, but combo level 3 requires you to use three builder attacks that aren't affected at all by the quirk you describe.
And since crit damage only applies about 10% of the time, um, yeah. I'm not saying StJ is better on Scrappers; I'm just saying that we're talking about a tiny edge either way. Also, to the poster you quoted: if you were experimenting with the set on low-level characters, it's worth noting that Brutes are far and away the most damaging AT in the game in the lower levels, because:
If you did compare them at higher levels, then great and more power to you; just thought I'd throw that explanation out there. |
Then again all subjective comparisons should be taken with a grain of salt, as they are by nature, subjective. The OP poster did ask for subjective views, so I gave mine.
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Exactly, AS is a rarely used attack because it has some of the worst DPS numbers in any set. The more you use it the worse your overall damage. It's great for what it does, but it is not a filler, it is a finshing move, or an opener to drop one hard target.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
I think you might be overestimating the practicality of those combo points on AS.
Because AS is such a finicky power it isn't always a practical attack to use. Also there are typically two ways a Stalker will use AS. Either after Build Up, or after a Placate. Although I haven't played the set myself from what I've read the way Stalkers can build combo points run counter to how a Stalker will be using AS. EDIT: This is exactly the same problem Stalker DB has. The combos run counter to how the AT is played. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Last I knew, it had some of the best DPS, the problem is getting that attack off.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Exactly, AS is a rarely used attack because it has some of the worst DPS numbers in any set. The more you use it the worse your overall damage. It's great for what it does, but it is not a filler, it is a finshing move, or an opener to drop one hard target.
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AVs can interrupt your softcapped stalker easy enough (at least that was my experience) by attacking while placating or while activating AS.
So you either lost time in attacking (interrupted AS) or you just wasted a good chunk of END for an attack that isn't getting the best DPS now, because the enemy wasnt placated (interrupted placate).
I had this problem on Maurader, Chimera and Nightstar on my KM/WP Stalker. I found I soloing Maurder and Chimera without AS being the best option, while Nightstar I just couldn't get bast her defenses :/
So yes, AS = AWESOME, making real use of it = NOT SO AWESOME!
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No, outside of Spines and maybe Elec, AS lowers your DPS.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Last I knew, it had some of the best DPS, the problem is getting that attack off.
AVs can interrupt your softcapped stalker easy enough (at least that was my experience) by attacking while placating or while activating AS. So you either lost time in attacking (interrupted AS) or you just wasted a good chunk of END for an attack that isn't getting the best DPS now, because the enemy wasnt placated (interrupted placate). I had this problem on Maurader, Chimera and Nightstar on my KM/WP Stalker. I found I soloing Maurder and Chimera without AS being the best option, while Nightstar I just couldn't get bast her defenses :/ So yes, AS = AWESOME, making real use of it = NOT SO AWESOME! |
Pretty certain though its been a while since i ran the math.
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I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
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Heh, no I mean I wouldn't even trust my own subjective impressions about that comparison. Deciding what I prefer is subjective, but even subjective impressions can be skewed. If you're happy with your Brute then that's great; I don't think you can go wrong, honestly -- but your experiment may have given you a distorted impression of how the set would play on a Scrapper.
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Originally Posted by Atomic_Funk
Agree 100%. I am just one of those people who actually like predictable nature of fury vs criticals. Both were played up to 20/21 before I stuck with one, which as you state is swayed toward brutes at those levels.
Then again all subjective comparisons should be taken with a grain of salt, as they are by nature, subjective. The OP poster did ask for subjective views, so I gave mine. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I like it best on stalkers hard to believe. Just build up AS a builder attack and then placate for multi-crit possibilities. Right now my stalker is 17, things might change in the later levels when resistance becomes insane. I will be attempting posi and synapse at least this weekend to see how it goes. What I do love is how if AS is not used from hide it still gives you 2 points regardless.
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My understanding from all the top attack chains is that adding AS to the chain lowers DPS on every set but spines and electric. After placate it is not as bad. But you're still better off using a single big hitter (dark melee's MG for instance) faster than using AS. the activation time is too long compared to the damage is the explanation I've seen. But I dunno the math myself.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Last I knew, it had some of the best DPS, the problem is getting that attack off.
AVs can interrupt your softcapped stalker easy enough (at least that was my experience) by attacking while placating or while activating AS. So you either lost time in attacking (interrupted AS) or you just wasted a good chunk of END for an attack that isn't getting the best DPS now, because the enemy wasnt placated (interrupted placate). I had this problem on Maurader, Chimera and Nightstar on my KM/WP Stalker. I found I soloing Maurder and Chimera without AS being the best option, while Nightstar I just couldn't get bast her defenses :/ So yes, AS = AWESOME, making real use of it = NOT SO AWESOME! |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Just doing a quick check on Ninja Blade...|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
My understanding from all the top attack chains is that adding AS to the chain lowers DPS on every set but spines and electric. After placate it is not as bad. But you're still better off using a single big hitter (dark melee's MG for instance) faster than using AS. the activation time is too long compared to the damage is the explanation I've seen. But I dunno the math myself.
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Placate + AS = 72+ DPS
No other attack does that much DPS in Ninja Blade. Placate + AS is powerful, it's just not worth it to use because you can't pull it off reliably, and are more likely to just waste the end on an interrupted attack or a waste time with a wasted placate.
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What's the dps on placate+golden dragonfly? Because that's the claim. There are, in each set, better choices than AS.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Just doing a quick check on Ninja Blade...
Placate + AS = 72+ DPS No other attack does that much DPS in Ninja Blade. Placate + AS is powerful, it's just not worth it to use because you can't pull it off reliably, and are more likely to just waste the end on an interrupted attack or a waste time with a wasted placate. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Went from 70 DPS on using it by itself to 54 using it with Placate. Placate lowers DPS, this is why Electric Melee's is the best for AS when paired with Ninjitsu...|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
What's the dps on placate+golden dragonfly? Because that's the claim. There are, in each set, better choices than AS.
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BU -> Caltrops (pet) -> Lightning Rod (pet) -> (back to being hidden by the time animation is over) Assassin Strike
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I haven't run the numbers for Street Justice, but prior to i21 from hidden status Assassin's Strike has the best DPA available to Stalkers at all - it's comparable to Blaze, and depending on which AS you're talking about, often favorably. Now, Crushing Uppercut does more damage in less time at combo level 3 (yes, it hits even harder than an AS crit), and even beats it on a crit at combo level 0. So only Street Justice has a better attack after Placate, out of any Stalker set. [edit: checked numbers for CU on beta server (where I had enough points for StJ)]|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
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Pretty certain though its been a while since i ran the math. |
Outside of hidden status, its DPA is middle-of-the-pack for most sets, usually the 3rd-5th in ranking and usually very close to the powers around it - it's a better DPA attack than Havoc Punch, but not really noticably so. It's second in Spines, sixth in Claws, and last in Martial Arts. The effect on your DPS depends on what chain you're using and whether or not you get interrupted, but saying "it lowers your DPS" is a nice ignorant blanket statement that simply isn't true. Slash lowers your DPS more than Assassin's Slash does, and that's in a set with the 3.67s animation; for KM with the faster animation it's 0.02 scale DPA (1.1 base damage for Stalkers) lower than Body Blow, which is the 3rd best DPA in the set.
Or, the tl;dr version: it depends but usually doesn't hurt, and if you're going to use it don't get hit.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I did say I haven't run the numbers in quite a while, but this is Factoring in the animation time of Placate or is this from the natural hidden state?
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I haven't run the numbers for Street Justice, but prior to i21 from hidden status Assassin's Strike has the best DPA available to Stalkers at all - it's comparable to Blaze, and depending on which AS you're talking about, often favorably. Now, Crushing Uppercut does more damage in less time at combo level 3 (yes, it hits even harder than an AS crit), and even beats it on a crit at combo level 0. So only Street Justice has a better attack after Placate, out of any Stalker set. [edit: checked numbers for CU on beta server (where I had enough points for StJ)]
Outside of hidden status, its DPA is middle-of-the-pack for most sets, usually the 3rd-5th in ranking and usually very close to the powers around it - it's a better DPA attack than Havoc Punch, but not really noticably so. It's second in Spines, sixth in Claws, and last in Martial Arts. The effect on your DPS depends on what chain you're using and whether or not you get interrupted, but saying "it lowers your DPS" is a nice ignorant blanket statement that simply isn't true. Slash lowers your DPS more than Assassin's Slash does, and that's in a set with the 3.67s animation; for KM with the faster animation it's 0.02 scale DPA (1.1 base damage for Stalkers) lower than Body Blow, which is the 3rd best DPA in the set. Or, the tl;dr version: it depends but usually doesn't hurt, and if you're going to use it don't get hit. |
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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I was assuming a 3-second AS animation for most of the calculations - I did specifically check KM's shorter animation to see how it affected things - but being favorably comparable to Blaze is strictly from hidden status.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I did say I haven't run the numbers in quite a while, but this is Factoring in the animation time of Placate or is this from the natural hidden state?
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Throwing in Placate (1.716 sec Arcanatime animation) changes the total time to 4.884 seconds, giving it a total combined DPA of 1.484 ds/sec including a 10% chance for the double crit (ie, scale 7.25 vs scale 7.0), or 1.433 ds/sec without including the chance for double crit. That puts it just behind Energy Transfer (1.57) and Crushing Uppercut (1.472 at combo 0), but still better than, say, Storm Kick (1.375) which is 3rd in the "normal" DPA for Stalkers*.
Using Crushing Uppercut after Placate (scale 6.36 minimum in 4.092 sec = 1.554 ds/sec; 1.632 ds/sec with double crits accounted for at combo 0) is probably the best option, but for every other primary there's AS.
* - Note that all of the ds/sec numbers given were at a 10% critical rate, which doesn't affect ET but will affect all other numbers.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Well I stand corrected:|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I was assuming a 3-second AS animation for most of the calculations - I did specifically check KM's shorter animation to see how it affected things - but being favorably comparable to Blaze is strictly from hidden status.
Throwing in Placate (1.716 sec Arcanatime animation) changes the total time to 4.884 seconds, giving it a total combined DPA of 1.484 ds/sec including a 10% chance for the double crit (ie, scale 7.25 vs scale 7.0), or 1.433 ds/sec without including the chance for double crit. That puts it just behind Energy Transfer (1.57) and Crushing Uppercut (1.472 at combo 0), but still better than, say, Storm Kick (1.375) which is 3rd in the "normal" DPA for Stalkers*. Using Crushing Uppercut after Placate (scale 6.36 minimum in 4.092 sec = 1.554 ds/sec; 1.632 ds/sec with double crits accounted for at combo 0) is probably the best option, but for every other primary there's AS. * - Note that all of the ds/sec numbers given were at a 10% critical rate, which doesn't affect ET but will affect all other numbers. |
AS does increase your DPS on a stalker, if you are softcapped and not facing foes with autohit attacks.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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And even being softcapped isn't good enough for use Placate + AS in general AV soloing, where you'd want to use it.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Well I stand corrected:
AS does increase your DPS on a stalker, if you are softcapped and not facing foes with autohit attacks. |
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Thank you!|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Went from 70 DPS on using it by itself to 54 using it with Placate. Placate lowers DPS, this is why Electric Melee's is the best for AS when paired with Ninjitsu...
BU -> Caltrops (pet) -> Lightning Rod (pet) -> (back to being hidden by the time animation is over) Assassin Strike |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
And even being softcapped isn't good enough for use Placate + AS in general AV soloing, where you'd want to use it.
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I mean somewhere there is a point where "on average after 10million attacks" AS will still be better than the other attack. If it's at 74 DPA and golden dragonfly is in the 50s I can't imagine AS is better at a 5% chance to be hit (cosftcap) and golden dragonfly is better at 7.5% chance to be hit.
But I;ve been wrong before (as recently as one post previously in this very thread in fact).
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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AVs have higher base 'accuracy' then most mobs, meaning their 'tohit floor' really isn't 5%. Its closer to 7.5% or even higher, which even softcapped means that AVs will just hit you more often.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Not sure why not though? AVs have higher chance to hit but at the cap they still miss most of the time. What is the % chance to get hit that makes it less attractive than another attack?
I mean somewhere there is a point where "on average after 10million attacks" AS will still be better than the other attack. If it's at 74 DPA and golden dragonfly is in the 50s I can't imagine AS is better at a 5% chance to be hit (cosftcap) and golden dragonfly is better at 7.5% chance to be hit. But I;ve been wrong before (as recently as one post previously in this very thread in fact). |
Thats also not counting the fact that some AVs have powers or abilities with higher acc modifiers, or tohit bonuses.
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Yes, I acknowledged that. But with a 20+dpa advantage, the occasional missed AS on average is still a better choice. With a reliably missed AS it is not. What % to be hit is that crossover point?
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
AVs have higher base 'accuracy' then most mobs, meaning their 'tohit floor' really isn't 5%. Its closer to 7.5% or even higher, which even softcapped means that AVs will just hit you more often.
Thats also not counting the fact that some AVs have powers or abilities with higher acc modifiers, or tohit bonuses. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Truthfully, I really don't know. All I have to go by is my experience on my KM/WP scrapper, that was softcapped to S/L/E/N and finding that wasn't good enough when using an attack that could be interrupted, and that Placate would often get interrupted.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Thank you!
Not sure why not though? AVs have higher chance to hit but at the cap they still miss most of the time. What is the % chance to get hit that makes it less attractive than another attack? I mean somewhere there is a point where "on average after 10million attacks" AS will still be better than the other attack. If it's at 74 DPA and golden dragonfly is in the 50s I can't imagine AS is better at a 5% chance to be hit (cosftcap) and golden dragonfly is better at 7.5% chance to be hit. But I;ve been wrong before (as recently as one post previously in this very thread in fact). |
Now, on a team situation, with someone else taking aggro, this is a different story, but solo, I just found I did better not using AS at all. :/
Solo wise, I was just wasting END as everything got interrupted. MAYBE if only one of the powers could be interrupted, it would work out better, but Placate can be avoided if they attack fast enough and hit, and AS can be interrupted. This was my experience, maybe others had better luck that I did, but I tried this on many AVs and AS was wasted more often than not. :/
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I should have PMed dev more about AS giving 3 combo points. :P I only tested the set during early levels. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Let us see:
AS for some arcane reason only gives 2 combo levels, forcing the use of another attack before a placate and finisher. |
3 combo points from Hidden and 2 combo points outside of Hidden. Fair enough I say! (although I know I'll never use AS outside of hidden but some people may feel the need to AS all the time!)
Overall, SJ is very decent on Stalker. The loss of Rib Cracker is kinda annoying but at least none of the aoe is taken out (small radius though).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Exactly. I have tried to use Assassin Strike more on my lvl 50s Stalkers and I actually find them very annoying to use in high-end contents. Clockworks, for example, has very high accuracy and they do a lot of dot damage. Hard to get off an AS during Apex first mission and AS is even less appealing in the 2nd mission against Battle Madien. It's just too much going on to set up an AS. If I have the chance, I just run in to hit as many times as I can before the blue flame drops or I could be attacked by Swords.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Last I knew, it had some of the best DPS, the problem is getting that attack off.
AVs can interrupt your softcapped stalker easy enough (at least that was my experience) by attacking while placating or while activating AS. So you either lost time in attacking (interrupted AS) or you just wasted a good chunk of END for an attack that isn't getting the best DPS now, because the enemy wasnt placated (interrupted placate). I had this problem on Maurader, Chimera and Nightstar on my KM/WP Stalker. I found I soloing Maurder and Chimera without AS being the best option, while Nightstar I just couldn't get bast her defenses :/ So yes, AS = AWESOME, making real use of it = NOT SO AWESOME! |
I've also tried to use Assassin Strike more in BAF and Lamba. Don't like it. The enemies shoot so many "burning patches" on the ground which interrupts AS. And in Lamba, there is just so much s!@#4 going on that it's not worth the time. The only good time is to BU + AS a crate from the start but I see Brutes/Scrappers soloing each crate just fine. Stalker doesn't really have an advantage here except maybe for scouting.
What else is left? LRSF? I don't see Assassin Strike being particularly useful during AV fights.
Basically I find Assassin Strike quite lacking at lvl 50 or even before that. When you get interrupted, you just lose too much endurance and lose the opportunity to do something else and the damage isn't that great. Assassin Strike is basically only good at ganking the weak (minions!). Hell, a BU + AS can't even kill a lot of +2 Lieuts.
PS: The good news is Assassin Strike should grant Fear effect even after the target is dead in one hit. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Skipping over quoting anything and going from personal experience here;
StJ on Stalkers is harder and not quite as fun to use than on Scrappers. Until 26 you only have two attacks to use as builders (using AS mid-combat is nigh impossible) and Synapse's example of using Placate ONLY works if there are no other enemies attacking you. Otherwise you will simply waste a placate mid-combat when another enemy hits you.
While pre-Beta I thought that Stalkers would have it better having pure BU...my god was I wrong. On my scrapper I systematically abuse CR far, FAR more than I ever use BU, even on other Scrappers and any other AT. For the first time it is a regular and loved part of my attack chain, rather than remembering to fire it off on bosses and such.
That gets completely taken away on Stalkers. And I'm not entirely sure why. Especialyl since the loss of Rib cracker leaves them with only two combo builders until level 26 and Shin Breaker.
How to 'fix' the percieved problem, though? I have no clue. The 'problem' with Stalkers is their incredibly tight build space, due to the 'necessity' of BU, Placate and AS.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Heck EM is playable. I am saying the stalker version is not as good as it's brothers. The devs had a cance to do something unique for stalker StJ like they did for KM. But instead they pulled a dual blades and left the set somewhat gutted.
I was hoping KM was the new standard in stalker ports.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.