Secondaries for Fenders and Blasters a fairly pointless choice
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-10-06 24:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Defender secondaries are plenty helpful. -resist in sonic, -tohit in dark, etc some secondary sets will go better with some primaries. |
Originally Posted by shaggy5
This is clearly just my opinion, but I feel when I am making a defender, it doesn't really matter what I choose for a secondary. It seems like the choice will not make or break my toon. My primary is the reason I exist as a defender and any damage I add is purely icing on the cake.
I actually feel the same about *most* blaster secondaries. I do see how the flavor of them is a bit different and can impact some, but FOR ME, the choice doesn't matter much. I won't have much issues liking the primary regardless of my secondary choice. I have some blasters (fire/fire, for example) that I use literally ZERO powers from my secondary. Am I the only one? |
I'm curious to see your blaster builds. I can't imagine not using my secondary.
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I appreciate the input. I know the descriptions say things like -resist and whatnot, but never see much of this in practice. Just the other day I was on my /sonic and I was testing it. My power would hit and the next hit with the same power produced the same numbers. I did this throughout the trial and never saw any change in numbers. Is there something I am not recognizing or doing wrong?
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Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
Defender secondaries are plenty helpful. -resist in sonic, -tohit in dark, etc some secondary sets will go better with some primaries.
I'm curious to see your blaster builds. I can't imagine not using my secondary. |
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
I have two level 50 Defenders and their secondary power sets are critical to how they play.
My Empathy/Energy Blast Defender often finds himself in "Corruptor Mode" acting as a DPS character. Some teams just don't need healing, and his choice of secondary set really determines how he plays. I actually chose Energy Blast originally so that he could hammer one opponent with single-target attacks and avoid mass aggro that would distract from healing and buffing. If I had chosen Fire Blast he'd be a VERY different character.
My Dark Miasma/Dark Blast Defender uses both his power sets together. For example, the cone attacks in Dark Blast have great synergy with the cone fear in Dark Miasma and they should all be used together in the same attack chain. The stun from Howling Twilight stacks with the stun from Dark Pit.
I have never really liked Blaster secondaries, but some of them have genuinely useful powers. I mean, why would a Blaster refuse to take Build Up?
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You're doing something wrong. Debuffs on Defender attacks are quite potent and you're not playing your character to its full potential unless you're using your primary and your secondary.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I appreciate the input. I know the descriptions say things like -resist and whatnot, but never see much of this in practice. Just the other day I was on my /sonic and I was testing it. My power would hit and the next hit with the same power produced the same numbers. I did this throughout the trial and never saw any change in numbers. Is there something I am not recognizing or doing wrong?
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Regarding Blaster secondaries, that's a bit trickier. They've all got a similar power layout (with the exception of Devices and Energy) so it's a matter of what fits your playstyle and synergizes best with your primary. For example, Devices is a poor pairing with AR but Energy is one of the best mostly due to Boost Range's effects on AR's cones.
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OK, but if I am not seeing my numbers change with -res and there is nothing I could do to increase the -res, what could I do differently?
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Originally Posted by macskull
You're doing something wrong. Debuffs on Defender attacks are quite potent and you're not playing your character to its full potential unless you're using your primary and your secondary.
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Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
My main is an nrg/nrg blapper. So secondaries are very important to me. And mental manipulation is probably one of the best secondaries for blasters.
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Do you have your combat log tab open? Are you sure your numbers are not changing or are you just looking at the orange floaties? You are firing more than one sonic attack, right? Shriek will stack with scream and knock the resistance down further... shriek will not stack with shriek (from the same caster)
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Originally Posted by shaggy5
OK, but if I am not seeing my numbers change with -res and there is nothing I could do to increase the -res, what could I do differently?
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i agree that most blaster secondaries are fairly useless, when im playing a blaster im not gonna use most of the secondary because im a glass cannon
the only secondary i could see as useful is energy manipulation due to all the click buffs such as powerboost, boost range, and build up, the other powers in it are just gravy
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I'm almost positive that it will stack from the same caster. They only last 3-10 seconds on average, with the exception being screech.
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Originally Posted by MikeRobe
Shriek will stack with scream and knock the resistance down further... shriek will not stack with shriek (from the same caster)
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I thought they had removed stack from same caster to avoid the crazy -rez stacking that it did in beta on each pulse of the dot. I could be wrong about that though. I know for sure that each different power will stack its -res on top of the previous
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No, you are right, I am not looking at the combat tab. And you are very possibly right that the numbers change a little if I am not looking at orange numbers. At the same time, if we are talking about 2 tenths of a point of orange, is there really a noticeable difference then? If I can, with 3 attacks, ALMOST get one point of orange, am I really happy with the -res? Someone else might be, but I probably don't care that much.
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Originally Posted by MikeRobe
Do you have your combat log tab open? Are you sure your numbers are not changing or are you just looking at the orange floaties? You are firing more than one sonic attack, right? Shriek will stack with scream and knock the resistance down further... shriek will not stack with shriek (from the same caster)
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Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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I like icing... don't you? No seriously. I have had team leaders tell me not to blast on my Corruptor even. "Just heal" they'd say. By which they mean, "Just do your supporty thing, whatever the hell that is."|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
This is clearly just my opinion, but I feel when I am making a defender, it doesn't really matter what I choose for a secondary. It seems like the choice will not make or break my toon. My primary is the reason I exist as a defender and any damage I add is purely icing on the cake.
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It's silly. You only need as much support as you need to keep people alive, to keep the enemy debuffed, or whatever. Beyond that, heck yes you should blast! Think about it. Even if you did only a THIRD of the damage of a Scrapper, don't you think if you asked that Scrapper if he'd like to be able to do 33% more damage, he'd say "Hell yes!"?
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Powers I use from Electricity Manipulation on my Elec^3 Blaster:
- Charged Brawl, Havoc Punch: Both do better damage than either blast from Electrical Blast, and Elec/Elec Blasters are made for blapping; occasional knockback from Havoc Punch is mild mitigation (some is better than none).
- Build Up: As someone else said, why would you not use this??
- Thunder Strike: Knockback is good mitigation and does great damage.
- Power Sink: The defining power of the set.
- Shocking Grasp: Hold #3 on my Elec^3 (okay, technically hold #2 of 3), allows me to perma-hold EBs, also a good place to 6-slot Lockdown for +Ranged Defense and the +2 Hold proc, or 4-slot Basilisk's Gaze for +Ranged Defense and +Recharge (I forget which set I have in there, probably BG since I use Tesla Cage more often thus it benefits from the proc more often). Oh wait, I have Mako's Bite in there for +Ranged Defense (better than BG) and it also does High DoT.
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Either I was not clear (probably) or you missed my point (maybe). I didn't say I would never blast as a defender as much as I don't care if it is an ice blast, or a sonic blast, or a ______ because no matter what I choose, there is not much difference.
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Originally Posted by Zem
I like icing... don't you? No seriously. I have had team leaders tell me not to blast on my Corruptor even. "Just heal" they'd say. By which they mean, "Just do your supporty thing, whatever the hell that is."
It's silly. You only need as much support as you need to keep people alive, to keep the enemy debuffed, or whatever. Beyond that, heck yes you should blast! Think about it. Even if you did only a THIRD of the damage of a Scrapper, don't you think if you asked that Scrapper if he'd like to be able to do 33% more damage, he'd say "Hell yes!"? |
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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It adds up significantly. |
Originally Posted by shaggy5
No, you are right, I am not looking at the combat tab. And you are very possibly right that the numbers change a little if I am not looking at orange numbers. At the same time, if we are talking about 2 tenths of a point of orange, is there really a noticeable difference then? If I can, with 3 attacks, ALMOST get one point of orange, am I really happy with the -res? Someone else might be, but I probably don't care that much.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWflNyqXNdg
Rad/Son defender soloing the scrapper rwz challenge. There are lots of video's of /sonic defenders soloing giant monsters etc. if you're just looking at the orange 1's and 2's you're missing how darn many of them there are... and you're missing the rounding - most of those 1's are almost 2's and the 2's are almost 3's
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Defenders get a -20% res debuff with sonic attacks. I'm lazy; I'm not seeing if it's on all powers. Point is, there's no way you are getting "almost one point of orange" due to the stacking debuffs. My /sonic defenders are great at gift wrapping hard targets. Bosses tend to melt as the debuffs stack. I have dropped jaws and proven people wrong in terms of how difficult it is in dropping AVs/GMs. I recall duoing an AV way back in the day on my Rad/sonic and my teammate's first response after it was done was "Whoa."|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
No, you are right, I am not looking at the combat tab. And you are very possibly right that the numbers change a little if I am not looking at orange numbers. At the same time, if we are talking about 2 tenths of a point of orange, is there really a noticeable difference then? If I can, with 3 attacks, ALMOST get one point of orange, am I really happy with the -res? Someone else might be, but I probably don't care that much.
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Also note if you see an increase of one more point of damage, it would be per DoT. If it's a lower level defender, then that makes more sense. Once a higher up /sonic chains attacks together, again, there's no way it's a one point difference unless ridiculously high resist are in play. This also says nothing of the increase in damage that's coming from teammates. I have two level 50 /sonics and bosses quite literally melt before my eyes once the debuffs start stacking.
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*hugs and cradles the Electric Secondaries*|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Powers I use from Electricity Manipulation on my Elec^3 Blaster:
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Yeah, to each their own, of course, but I love my secondaries and often times they feel more defining and important to me than the primaries.
Dark Gob said it well enough for my favorite: The E3 Blaster.
I have a Psychic/Energy Blaster who focuses much more on the melee of the Energy Secondary.
My Archery/Devices is greatly impacted by Devices.
I am loving my new Dark/Dark Blaster and have been heavily enjoying the secondary (and looking forward to being higher level and enjoying the secondary even more).
I know there are different styles, but I can't imagine playing Blasters without indulging in the Secondary Powers. They are often what makes me enjoy Blaster so much.
Anyway... Beyond the aspect of the thrill and utility that the secondaries provide with my Blaster playstyle, themes and concepts and visuals all play a huge role in my enjoyment of playing this game... so the secondaries of my Defenders and Blaster definitely mean a lot to me.
Hrm, my Empathy/Psi Defender is built around being a psychic and having Telekinetic Blast is too great for me to not notice when using other secondaries, hehe.
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In addition, if you are playing a /en, /elec, /mm, /ice, or /dark blaster and you aren't using your secondary, then I really don't know what to tell you. Hell, my Fire/fire uses as much of my secondary as possible. Why? Because he's a virtual rolling nuke with the sheer AoE he pumps out and I'll be damned if that isn't a hell of a lot of fun.
I suspect his blaster complaint is most likely due to not getting in the middle of the fight and punching mobs in the face. If you hang back and shoot, then yeah, the secondary is (mostly) pointless. If you get in the mosh pit and flail around your secondary can make quite a difference.
Psy/MM blaster (i don't care what you say...i had FUN with him...except with robots and undead stuff...so there! 
) used his secondary EXTENSIVELY. Heck...half my AoE was in there! And then there's drain psyche, concentration (build up) a melee blap or two (course...i never actually TOUCHED the guy....so does that still count? heh)..whats not to love? Well...ok...maybe WoC...that's kinda meh.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
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Maybe not, but it doesn't stop your opinion from being a bit silly.
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Originally Posted by shaggy5
Am I the only one?
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i agree that most blaster secondaries are fairly useless, when im playing a blaster im not gonna use most of the secondary because im a glass cannon
the only secondary i could see as useful is energy manipulation due to all the click buffs such as powerboost, boost range, and build up, the other powers in it are just gravy |
Dude, you're doing it wrong...Quote:
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Powers I use from Electricity Manipulation on my Elec^3 Blaster:
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Well, if you knew me, you would know it is a foregone conclusion that I am a bit silly.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Maybe not, but it doesn't stop your opinion from being a bit silly.
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Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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Oh, friend. You are making a major mistake here. The secondary is huge for blasters.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
This is clearly just my opinion, but I feel when I am making a defender, it doesn't really matter what I choose for a secondary. It seems like the choice will not make or break my toon. My primary is the reason I exist as a defender and any damage I add is purely icing on the cake.
I actually feel the same about *most* blaster secondaries. I do see how the flavor of them is a bit different and can impact some, but FOR ME, the choice doesn't matter much. I won't have much issues liking the primary regardless of my secondary choice. I have some blasters (fire/fire, for example) that I use literally ZERO powers from my secondary. Am I the only one? |
For example:
AR/Energy. Energy turns AR into a monster with boost range and build up alone. Throw in power boost for the defense bonus, and even better, conserve power for obvious reasons and energy really makes AR shine. Seriously. Boost Range on 3 cone powers is tons of fun.
Example 2:
Dual Pistols/MM. Dual pistols is an in your face set. MM is perfect for it with additional AOE, a build up type power and, best of all, sweet sweet drain Psyche. Really makes DP awesome.
We have not even begun to discuss the secondary powers I take to get set bonuses (example: world of confusion for the purople set).
In short: friend, I think you are missing out.
This is clearly just my opinion, but I feel when I am making a defender, it doesn't really matter what I choose for a secondary. It seems like the choice will not make or break my toon. My primary is the reason I exist as a defender and any damage I add is purely icing on the cake.
I actually feel the same about *most* blaster secondaries. I do see how the flavor of them is a bit different and can impact some, but FOR ME, the choice doesn't matter much. I won't have much issues liking the primary regardless of my secondary choice. I have some blasters (fire/fire, for example) that I use literally ZERO powers from my secondary.
Am I the only one?
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers