Does weapon redraw have a negative effect anymore?


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Posted

I've heard it both ways. One person says "if you redraw, the rest of the animation goes faster to compensate". Another says "nothing changes; redraw is a straight loss to damage". Yet another says "some powers are compensated, others aren't."

So what's the story? I'm on a BR/Kin corruptor and half my group says I'm screwing myself with the immense redraw. (And they are right in one sense: the amount of redraw is unbelievable.)


 

Posted

Originally, redraw was supposed to have no negative penalty (there was a pause after all weapon attacks the length of the draw). In practice, it was a total mess, some were neutral, some had pauses that were too long, and others were too short.

Around the time of Dual Blades' addition, the pause in the weapon attacks animations were removed (meaning there because a redraw penalty, but weapon sets didn't look horrible anymore and did improved damage generally).

I've heard people claim that animations are now sped up if you draw your weapon with it... which I'm fairly certain isn't true, as I've never seen a redname say that. It wouldn't be too hard to test if someones willing to take the time to do it properly, though.


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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
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when im playing a weapon set the redraw always feels like it takes forever, i hate the redraw so much i usually avoid playing weapon sets with a conflicting secondary (ie a lot of redraw)


 

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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
when im playing a weapon set the redraw always feels like it takes forever, i hate the redraw so much i usually avoid playing weapon sets with a conflicting secondary (ie a lot of redraw)
This.

I have no idea how redraw affects numerical performance, but I find it so aesthetically displeasing that I won't play set combos that invoke it at all.

I guess there is some sort of <difficult coding problem> that prevents getting rid of redraw completely, but I still *really* wish it would go away.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
when im playing a weapon set the redraw always feels like it takes forever, i hate the redraw so much i usually avoid playing weapon sets with a conflicting secondary (ie a lot of redraw)
I have that impression as well. That's why I rerolled a 26 beam/poison to beam/traps - since poison's debuffs recharge so fast I had to redraw a LOT.


 

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Originally Posted by MayorOfAngrytown View Post
This.

I have no idea how redraw affects numerical performance, but I find it so aesthetically displeasing that I won't play set combos that invoke it at all.

I guess there is some sort of <difficult coding problem> that prevents getting rid of redraw completely, but I still *really* wish it would go away.
the reason they gave about it was that it was not difficult, just extremely time consuming having to add in "with weapon" animations for almost every armor set, so its unlikely to happen just because it would be so much additional work


 

Posted

Last official word I heard on this subject was back when BAB and Castle worked to remove the "baked in" redraw times from all the various weapon sets. That did wonders for those sets' DPS, but also meant that redraw was an unequivocally bad thing in that regard.

I've also heard of the "animation times are faster if you redraw" deal, but I haven't actually seen anything official stating that. Personally, I have extreme doubts on this as far as I can tell, that sort of dynamic animation time modification just doesn't exist. Or rather, didn't until very recently with the advent of Titan Weapons' Momentum mechanic.

Whatever the case may be though, I'd still go out of my way to avoid redraw. It's just annoying as hell.


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Posted

It exists and it drives me crazy. I consider this a major item that I would like to see fixed, even if it means killing off the cutsie and unnecessary weapon draw animation and the weapon just appears from nowhere.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
the reason they gave about it was that it was not difficult, just extremely time consuming having to add in "with weapon" animations for almost every armor set, so its unlikely to happen just because it would be so much additional work
Yeah, that actually sounds familiar. Makes sense too. "With weapon" animations for all the various permuations of secondaries, probably not going to happen.

Redraw still makes me a sad panda though. At least there are enough things to do with minimal amounts, or none at all.


 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
It exists and it drives me crazy. I consider this a major item that I would like to see fixed, even if it means killing off the cutsie and unnecessary weapon draw animation and the weapon just appears from nowhere.
My optimum solution would be providing each weapon set with a 0-end toggle unaffected by mez or anything, the toggles sole purpose would be drawing the weapon when first activated, then keeping the bloomin thing in your hand no matter what!

then atleast you can get the initial draw, and even putting it away for whatever reason you want too.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
It exists and it drives me crazy. I consider this a major item that I would like to see fixed, even if it means killing off the cutsie and unnecessary weapon draw animation and the weapon just appears from nowhere.
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie View Post
My optimum solution would be providing each weapon set with a 0-end toggle unaffected by mez or anything, the toggles sole purpose would be drawing the weapon when first activated, then keeping the bloomin thing in your hand no matter what!

then atleast you can get the initial draw, and even putting it away for whatever reason you want too.
And that, as I understand it, is the issue. Non-Weapon Sets don't have animations showing the weapon. So to do what you want they would have to do new the animations for every single set that can be paired with a weapon set to allow this to happen.

For example, one of the defence powers has a chest beat (rage maybe, or tough). Imagine this with dual blades....


 

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It used to be the case that weapons stayed drawn as long as your character was in attack mode. I don't remember which issue removed this by adding redraw functionality that more closely resembled what we have now, but the reason they did it was that the majority of emotes, of which there were far fewer back then, looked absurd with a weapon drawn. The bow emote, for instance, cause katana users to neatly impale themselves through the head. Secondary powers had similar problems. To reinstate constantly drawn weapons they'd have to add thousands of new animations, combining every weapon set with every possible primary, secondary, pool and temporary combination, and even then people would be angry because you still wouldn't be able to emote with a weapon drawn unless they did approximately the same amount of work making all of those compatible as well. I'd rather they focus on other things.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledneh_ View Post
One person says "if you redraw, the rest of the animation goes faster to compensate".
pretty sure that this is untrue
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Originally Posted by Ledneh_ View Post
Another says "nothing changes; redraw is a straight loss to damage".
It can be
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Originally Posted by Ledneh_ View Post
Yet another says "some powers are compensated, others aren't."
I am not sure what this means


 

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Originally Posted by MayorOfAngrytown View Post
I guess there is some sort of <difficult coding problem> that prevents getting rid of redraw completely, but I still *really* wish it would go away.
Uh...it's not a matter of coding preventing them. Redraw animation time was consciously added into the game by the Devs and had been asked for by the playerbase. Redraw is the solution to an even worse problem, the "standing around unable to act for a fraction of a second even during an attack chain because of baked-in redraw delay." Instead, now we only have a redraw penalty if we're interrupting consecutive uses of the weapon set's attacks.

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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt View Post
Last official word I heard on this subject was back when BAB and Castle worked to remove the "baked in" redraw times from all the various weapon sets.
That's what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt View Post
That did wonders for those sets' DPS, but also meant that redraw was an unequivocally bad thing in that regard.
Yeah, but remember, previously we had the delay when chaining our weapon attacks but NOT when using a non-weapon power; now, although we pay the penalty when switching from a non-weapon to a weapon power, it does not impeded a continuous weapon attack chain each. time. a. power. is. used.

Bottom line: we asked for redraw penalties, we got them, and we are arguably better off for having them.


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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
when im playing a weapon set the redraw always feels like it takes forever, i hate the redraw so much i usually avoid playing weapon sets with a conflicting secondary (ie a lot of redraw)
Same here. Besides if there is one negative effect redraw has it's on my immersion.


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Posted

I've heard from a couple players too that weapon redraw times don't impact DPS, but the weapon character I have certainly didn't feel that much different from they did 2+ years ago when last I played them.

I have a BS/Regen character that's not too bad (weapon redraws are minimal unless I use a self-heal), a AR/Devices Blaster (I don't remember many problems here, but the character's been on the back-burner for a while now), and a new Kinetic/Dual Pistol character I've been enjoying so-far (the redraw on DP is pretty fast, and considering both powersets are close-ranged, they seem to have a decent synergy).


 

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Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
Uh...it's not a matter of coding preventing them.
Technically, it is a matter of coding preventing them from completely eliminating redraw.

Before he was let go, BAB was working on doing just that. His efforts unfortunately ran into a major issue which he did not elaborate on, but implied that it severely broke many things and that proceeding along that path would be very bad.

The other way to get rid of redraw would be to make alternate, weapon-out animations for EVERY animation. Which would basically be like completely remaking the game. This is a viable option in the "Yes, it can be done," way, but is also very non-viable in the "No, it can't be done any time soon," way.


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Yeah, but remember, previously we had the delay when chaining our weapon attacks but NOT when using a non-weapon power; now, although we pay the penalty when switching from a non-weapon to a weapon power, it does not impeded a continuous weapon attack chain each. time. a. power. is. used.
Isn't that what I said?

Also, the "delay" was always there in the original animations. It was just being eaten up by the redraw animation. Under the old animations, redrawing the weapon for every single attack had the exact same DPS as not doing so.

The new animations mean doing that sort of thing would be a major strike on your DPS.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordAethar View Post
I've heard from a couple players too that weapon redraw times don't impact DPS, but the weapon character I have certainly didn't feel that much different from they did 2+ years ago when last I played them.

I have a BS/Regen character that's not too bad (weapon redraws are minimal unless I use a self-heal), a AR/Devices Blaster (I don't remember many problems here, but the character's been on the back-burner for a while now), and a new Kinetic/Dual Pistol character I've been enjoying so-far (the redraw on DP is pretty fast, and considering both powersets are close-ranged, they seem to have a decent synergy).
The change to animations started in late 2007 with the release of Dual Blades (or maybe slightly before). Before that, every weapon power had a brief (but ABSURDLY annoying) pause at the end (unless you drew the weapon at the start).

You think redraw is annoying? How about having your character just stand there dumbly for the same length of time always! Yeah, that was hated by the playerbase. Adding redraw was a major buff to every single weapon set. Hell, it was such a huge buff for Archery that it went from a set where you didn't really need stamina with it, to where it could actually use up your endurance!

Redrawing does make some impact on your DPS, but, unless you're using powers that force redraw quite regularly, it's not going to be a big deal. Worst possible case scenario, your DPS is equal to what it would have been before redraw penalty was added


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
when im playing a weapon set the redraw always feels like it takes forever, i hate the redraw so much i usually avoid playing weapon sets with a conflicting secondary (ie a lot of redraw)
I hear you on that. Made a Battleaxe/Shield because it seemed fitting, and literally, I feel like I'm redrawing my weapon after every other attack.


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Posted

really its a moot point, as unless the devs take a powerset with redraw.
for example dual blades...

copy it and alter the code of the copy to remove redraw.

then have 2 identically built/enhanced what have you characters run the same sequence of power chains on identical targets (not including random variances as that would be impossible)

there would be no way of saying yes it does or no it doesn't.

either deal with the redraw and move on, or don't play a powerset that has it.

not trying to start an arguement or troll, this is just my opinion.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie View Post
My optimum solution would be providing each weapon set with a 0-end toggle unaffected by mez or anything, the toggles sole purpose would be drawing the weapon when first activated, then keeping the bloomin thing in your hand no matter what!

then atleast you can get the initial draw, and even putting it away for whatever reason you want too.

This is already in game for one set, quills will keep your spines out when you activate your secondary. They don't really change anything. The only way that would help is outside of battle to redraw, which anyone can do as they run into the mob by hitting any attack. In battle you will have to pause to redraw even when the toggle is on. You don't notice it as much but it is still there.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
It exists and it drives me crazy. I consider this a major item that I would like to see fixed, even if it means killing off the cutsie and unnecessary weapon draw animation and the weapon just appears from nowhere.
This.

I can't stand weapon redraw, and usually avoid playing weapon sets because of it.


 

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I didn't used to care about redraw, but the more I saw it, the more I came to hate it. My BS/Regen is constantly redrawing his sword. MOG > Redraw. Reconstruction > Redraw. Dull Pain > Redraw. Hasten > Redraw. Yes, I know that the weapon popping in looks a little strange, but it looks equally strange when a weapon disappears the instant you use a non-weapon power. The weapon gets drawn from thin air, too.


 

Posted

I believe there are still a few powers where weapon redraw is still "baked-in". I'm fairly certain this is the case with Assassin Strike, for example. i.e. The actual "crouch and then strike" part of the animation will be shortened if you had to draw your weapon first such that the total time of draw-then-strike is the same as just striking with the weapon already drawn.

May also still be true of pool powers that use weapons, like Mace Mastery. I think they only re-worked primary/secondary weapon powersets to remove draw time from the attack animation.


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