Personally, I'd have suggested/requested a little more in the healing/buff department and maybe given it another team wipe before quitting.
One of the challenges with City of Heroes rather free-form team makeup is that you often find yourself as the only Defender or only Melee toon in a team and it can make it hard to work out who should be doing what. Of course, a good team leader should be helping out by telling people what their roles are if they're clearly not figuring them out for themselves (and I apologise for starting this sentence with "of").
You were, arguably, marginally in the wrong for not saying anything and just expecting people to support you correctly (for all you know they may all have been brand new players who just didn't know what was expected of them, but the chances are slim), though I wouldn't blame you for it.
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Never accept blinds...|
Originally Posted by Quantumizer
I received a blind invite. Ok, I thought... why not? I accepted ... doom follows
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If the fenders weren't doing anything I suppose you could've waited until they were ready as it's important if you're facing mobs that are so tough on your team to ensure everyone's ready before anyone dives in. If they were doing something it obviously wasn't enough and that many red and purple conning mobs at that level may've been over your head.
I'd say you could also have said something before hitting quit, like... too low for this or I don't think this is gonna work, I'll pass. Cya.
But more importantly I think there's nearly always something to say for either side of a scenario and you shouldn't worry about it too much.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
Fighting purples and reds with TO's or DO's at that level with few powers is not something that makes sense to me. The amount of time spent traveling after the multiple team wipes is not made up by the "great xp" and its not fun seeing miss miss miss...
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
As someone who tends towards the scrappy side (currently trying Brute), I think I would have acted the same as you. That doesn't mean it's the best way to act though. I agree with The Spad that someone (could have been you) should have stopped for a moment and tried to organise the team, or at least understand what everyone was doing.
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First, it was silly for the team leader to run at +2 at that low a level. You're just wasting time running back from the hospital. Your XP/second is much lower when you struggle against +2 mobs than when you cruise against even-con mobs.|
Originally Posted by Quantumizer
Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? Thanks.
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Second, when I play an defender with Time Manipulation/ or Radiation/ I generally hang back as well. Defenders in the middle of combat are often exposed to AoE damage attacks and stuns (especially from Freakshow), which gets you killed quickly.
That said, however, I will move in to heal team mates as needed. I just ran the Sewer Trial with a TM/ defender, and I was constantly in the middle of melee healing the tanker and scrapper. At low levels it's not so dangerous for defenders because there are fewer mez attacks.
What I want to know is how many of those defenders had Time's Juncture and were running it while hanging back. That is a PBAoE debuff. If they're not mixing it up in melee, they pretty much don't get the point of that power and are just wasting end. Four defenders running that would floor the mobs' attack rate, make it almost impossible for the mobs to land any attacks, and the 5% of the time they did hit, they would do almost no damage.
At that level of debuffage, there's no reason for defenders to stay out of melee.
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I think that the flexibility of the game helps create this problem a lot. There are usually 5 or 6 ways to approach most any encounter that all have equally good odds of success. (Note that I say equally good, not all having good odds. In some cases each of the *best* options may be only a 50/50 scenario.) In the familiar scenarios, with more or less normal team balance the 'default' roles pretty much tell everyone how to play, so no leader is needed most of the time. In the edge cases like this, a given percentage just hesitates trying to figure out what's going on, and the rest just assume they know, but often aren't on the same page. |
Originally Posted by Quantumizer
I had a team experience a few nights ago that keeps nagging me, and I was hoping I could get some outside perspective on it and the questions it raised for me.
.................................................. ....... Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? Thanks. P.S. Since this is an exercise in introspection, I warmly welcome all honest comments, even those that reflect negatively on my gameplay, manners, personality, intelligence, heritage, or personal hygiene  |
So, I'd say the leader was at fault marginally more for a) Selecting a really tough mission, and then b) Not taking charge to make sure there was at least some sort of coordinated effort.
That said, everyone else could have spoke up, too, and didn't, and you quit without a comment, too, so you're far from excused (but I assume you knew that from the tone of your original post).
As for one's centrality... I think a lot of folks will probably agree with me here, but claim they are the exception, but I'll throw it out regardless. I think most everyone thinks of themselves as central in some way or another. Most everyone feels that their role is *the* critical one. Either 'central support' (I'm the uber critical support type) or 'central damage' or 'central crowd control' or some combination of the above. We're all playing a super hero game and most of us want it to be our name on the cover of the comic. Even if we like being the 'sidekick' or 'lackey' we want to feel it was out key support contribution that made the difference. So, I think we all try to make ourselves more central than ideal at times, but that isn't a condemnation, just a natural result of the type of game we're playing.
The flip side, is a a team with huge redundancy, like 5 defs all with the same powerset, it can be hard to imagine ones contribution even being noticed, and thus one may feel themselves non-critical. Sort of like the 'what good is a mere +2.5 def going to do me' attitude. This will tend to make folks even more hesitant when stacked with the uncertainty of a strange group makeup and the lack of a leadership voice. Some sets, when feeling redundant may also go toward excessive recklessness, too, with the mindset "so what if I die there are 4 other Xs in the group, anyhow." Neither of these attitudes are all that great for team success, though.
So, I guess, I'd say, no real heavy blame or shame needs to be thrown about for that scenario. It's probably pretty normal, given the string of factors. I would say a strong voice, or at least good communication could have vastly improved your odds. You may still have been out of your depth, but if you wiped then, at least there wouldn't have been as many hard feelings if everyone had a role, known what was expected of them, and lept to it as best they could.
Your mileage may vary, and that's just my take on things...
Maddie
PS: That said, I usually don't accept blind invites myself, so that may have been your first mistake. If the leader was too shy to say, "Hi, wanna join the team," then it's a good bet they might be too shy to adequately lead, but of course, this isn't always the case.
At that level, pretty much all a tm/ has is a heal and the -to hit aura. If they're not standing near the enemies, then they clearly don't know how their powers work. The same would have been true of them without you or if they were soloing.
Drop a team like that - fast.
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Juncture doesn't affect attack rate. It's slow, but not -recharge.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
Four defenders running that would floor the mobs' attack rate
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I understand your frustration, but you should remember that not everyone "gets" a new powerset right away, and it was a very low level group who might not have understand what they ought to be doing to be the most helpful.
I actually think the issue is not with the blind invite, not with the scrappers and not with the defenders....or controller.
I think it was everyones fault. I get blind invited all the time on Virtue and maybe for the last year and a bit I have been lucky all the time. But considdering I do not think that is even possible, I would say it boils down to communication.
Expecting people to know what you will be doing and what they will be doing (Especially if there are new players playing a new powerset) needs to be addressed.
We know our relative roles and the game does a good job explaining those roles, however if a pack of defenders are hanging out, and you were the last to join the team, perhaps their tactic was always just hanging back, pulling and then debuffing. Perhaps if you needed the buffs and these people were inexperienced, you should have asked?
I usually do not mind taking charge in these situations, and many times it's on my Corr or my Dom, and many people have the the concept that the melee will take point, and then some of the brunt of the leadership....which I feel your team may have been lacking greatly.
Again I could chalk it up to the innexperience of the players you ran with, and their inexperience using Time Manipulation (which is new), but I also think some ownership of communicating what "you" need is also important.
If Im on my Poison Corr, and I know we are fighting mezzers, and things are busy, Ill let people know right before the battle.
"ZZZZ me if stunned"
Took me 2.1 seconds to write that. Thats less time than a load screen and less time to get back to where the battle went seriously wrong.
Oddly
"Buff me"
"Need Buffs"
"Holy freaking hell..I need buffs"
"BUFFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Heal Me"
"Keeps your heals on me"
"Need Heals"
Those all sort of took the same time to type
Lastly Etiquette!!!
"Please Sir...May I have a Heal/Buff etc"
Or
"Hey guys...I know you are all swirling and massed in a corner being all time like...but I need some more support"
I dunno. Maybe Im not lucky with blind invites, I just don't have an issue telling people what I need.
I guess that my first question would be...what were their secondries? I've run with multiple defender teams and I've watched them steamroll through missions without breaking a virtual sweat.
In situations like that I usually try to say something before leaving a team. Even if its just a simple 'this isn't working for me.'
I will give an odd bit of advice though... Don't be afraid to try pick up teams. Sometimes you find really good players that way. Just be warned that its a bit like mining for gold, the rewards come from having patience.
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
I would have probably used a light-hearted comment to draw them in when I first saw the make-up, "This should fun 4 [wonderful buffs] at once! yay!" Or something along those lines - reminds some players of their tools, establishes your expectations, and sets yourself up as an enthusiastic team mate. Then if the going gets... rough... you can ask questions or provide guidance without ruffling feathers quite as much.
Another option would have been to ask what the plan was at the first encounter - of the leader and/or team. Were they expecting you to tank - at low levels it isn't always fun to tank as a tank, let alone a scrapper. Or did they grab you purely for DPS? A quick question would have helped delineate the rolls.
That all said, you probably didn't do anything 'wrong', but I doubt I would have just bailed without speaking up. At worst you tick some ppl off that think they know what they're doing. At best, you help teach a new player, or a player with a new AT/powerset, what works. Or maybe even learn something yourself.
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106% agree.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Fighting purples and reds with TO's or DO's at that level with few powers is not something that makes sense to me. The amount of time spent traveling after the multiple team wipes is not made up by the "great xp" and its not fun seeing miss miss miss...
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Leaving aside the communications issue, like sometimes you just don't feel that it's worth speaking up, so eh.
The +2 mission at level 11 is crazy. Even with Beginner's Luck, you'll have a hard time hitting while all the enemies can pretty much auto-hit you. No way would I have charged the full spawn groups. I would have asked for a pull and if the neither the Blaster or Defenders stepped up, I would have used my ranged origin temp power. And if the Defenders were staying clustered way in the back as you said, I would have pulled to them. This is so that they were in the mix to spread the aggro and thus to have to fight to defend themselves, and to ensure that they'd be around me with their debuffs and heals while they're healing themselves. Even if the Defenders back off, I'll keep maneuvering myself to stay with the group. If it becomes so blatantly obvious that the reason they're in the back is because they didn't want to participate with the fight, ie leaching, then I'd quit.
As for Time Manipulation, you didn't say if you played with this new powerset yet. I only have a level 22 */TM Controller, so the low level experience is still fresh for me. In regards to the TM heal, it takes so very long to recharge. I was just able to upgrade to 3 level 25 recharge IOs and it finally feels like I could possibly keep someone alive when the going gets rough. In addition, that DOT heal gimmick means the initial burst heal is pretty dinky and really takes some time to get used to.
For your specific example with 5 TM Defenders, if they take the DOT heal into consideration after noting you trying to solo the alpha strikes and getting beaten up, they could have set up a routine with say 2 of them giving you a heal before you charged in so you'd be constantly healing during the alpha strike. Another 2 could come in after you and cast their heals after the alpha strike to top you off. The fifth can be in reserve to heal the rest of the team after the aggro spreads when the other 4 are still recharging. Of course, tactic might be a bit advanced without more play time experience.
On an aside, during today's commute to work, my mind was wandering and I suddenly realized the TM PBAOE -tohit toggle is basically Hurricane without the Repel effect. I knew it seemed familiar.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
Communication is key. If you thought that them doing something else would benefit the team it is your duty to say so. You could still leave afterwards. Now they are not going to have any better clue how to play.
Time's Juncture is brutal. It's even more brutal stacked. If you'd pointed this out the team could probably have done better, so long as the mobs were all bunched.
You could have also suggested lowering the difficulty.
....or you could be like me and *never* accept blind invites. EVER.
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Originally Posted by Psychoti
....or you could be like me and *never* accept blind invites. EVER.
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After all these years, sometimes the train wrecks are what keeps the game interesting. And if it turns out to be really bad, you get a story to tell on the forums over a camp fire.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
I'll add that you could always ask whoever sends a blind invite what level missions they are doing or what the make-up of the team is. If someone sends me a blind invite and I have even the remotest interest, I'll check out what level the person is and ask them what level missions they are running before I decide whether to accept. Frankly, you generally don't know much more about a PUG from a broadcast looking for teammates than what level they are running and maybe how many people they have on the team. So I don't see the "blind invite" part as being inherently problematic, although I definitely look at them skeptically as I'm sure many people do.
While quitting on the team mid-mission probably isn't the ideal way to go, there definitely has to be some blame heaped on the team leader. The team leader is the one inviting people and setting the missions. If the team leader isn't going to put together a team with at least a little balance (assuming there were enough people in the zone and/or level range to do so), isn't going to set missions at a level appropriate for the make-up of the team, and isn't going to provide the team with any strategy or guidance, then that person probably shouldn't be forming teams. Especially if you've had a few team wipes in a mission, then the team leader needs to get things back on track and re-organized.
However, I probably would have: (a) spoken up and tried to get a plan together and get everyone on the same page; (b) asked for any buffs that I thought I should have been getting as part of normal strategy; (c) gutted it out until the mission was finally over or the team disbanded; and (d) as soon as that mission was over, then I would have politely made my exit from that team.
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Try being on a team as the only scrapper and dying when you have a team with 7 empathy defenders. Died in a carnies mission cuz they refused to clear mind or fort each other. You will get bad players and you know when its time to quit.
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Originally Posted by Quantumizer
I had a team experience a few nights ago that keeps nagging me, and I was hoping I could get some outside perspective on it and the questions it raised for me.
So, my level 7 Elec/SR scrapper was shopping in KR when I received a blind invite. Ok, I thought... why not? I accepted and found myself in the middle of a team of five -- count 'em, five -- time manip defenders, a controller, and I think a blaster. I was sk'd up to 11, I think. No other melee types. We finished some ho-hum save-level bank mish, then pulled up somebody's +2 mission... all reds and purples, skulls... large packs, most with two bone daddies in them. Team wipe twice. Third time, I charge a pack to start hacking down a boss, go down, then swivel camera to see all the defenders bunched up a ways back. I got pissed, hit the hospital, then hit the quit button (a few seconds later, I saw most of my former teammates materialize back at the hospital, too -- another wipe). I never have quit without saying something. Chewing it over afterward, I tried to understand why I was so pissed. Maybe it was because I understood my job as DPS, and I understood the defenders' job as... well... to defend. Why didn't I have at least 3x Temporal Selection on me (+90% dam, +450% regen), and why weren't the defs bunched up around me to keep me in their healing auras? They were all standing back in their collective auras. Sure, I know ranged AT's stay at range, but with no tank, everything is going to be in melee pretty soon anyway, and you better keep your DPS alive so he can cut down the real problem children (freakin' bone daddies). I guess I could have hung back there with them, but that looks kind of goofy... the scrapper hanging back waiting for whatever happens to come his way. But then I started wondering about my own culpability. Maybe I wasn't right to think of my role as so central. Or do the roles shift with such a drastically unbalanced makeup (I would have thought if anything the scrapper becomes more central -- there being only one -- but I could be wrong). Maybe I should have taken one look at the team makeup and either asked for some backup, or politely departed. Should I have made some comments and suggestions on tactics? Were my own tactics brash and cavalier? (I am, after all, an SR scrapper, not a Stone tanker). Would all this be a non-issue if I just hadn't accepted a blind invite in the first place? Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? Thanks. P.S. Since this is an exercise in introspection, I warmly welcome all honest comments, even those that reflect negatively on my gameplay, manners, personality, intelligence, heritage, or personal hygiene |
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I almost never see teams play in a coordinated fashion. The only time I ever saw it was with my own group of friends, and even there "coordination" was mostly a set of optimal "routines" that just evolved from the five of us playing through 40 levels of content together with the same characters. But that still didn't stop the occasional bonehead move by one or another of us who got bored and just decided to go all lone wolf during a mission or something.
In general I have found that when you team up with a bunch of strangers you can't really expect anything in the way of coordinated or organized tactics. To the extent to which anyone understands their "responsibilities" based on their AT and power sets, much of what they know will get discarded when just wading in and attacking willy-nilly seems to be working just fine (e.g., nobody sticks around for targetted buffs and consequently defenders often don't bother giving them out because nobody, especially the melee toons, will stand still long enough to make it worthwhile, especially at the level cap).
So I wouldn't worry that the sloppy play that seems to grip most teams will occasionally result in repeated team wipes; it seems to be mostly a low level phenomenon (high level teams can typically survive this particular deficiency, so it goes largely unnoticed) and you will eventually just out level the problem.
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The only time I'll generally accept blind invites is if I'm logged in on Helpy McHelperson, grav/storm troller. And I am pretty nice, and I will ask, once, if people meant to do that.
Then I help them.
I have noticed a transition form a team game into more of a spectater game, especially in a recent iTrial. The other 4 tanks were not engaging aggro therefore I took the aggro for a 24 man team solo! I was wondering why I was suddenly under powered until I turned back to see the other tanks watching rather than, well .. "tanking". This occurred on subsequent mobs at which point I altered my play to lay back as the leadership was inexperienced. We should have been walking it but I guess many more people have joined who are not as competent as we.
If you didn't ask for them to assist you, then at least part of the fault is yours. If you didn't try to give strategy, then at least part of the fault is yours. If you quit at the first sign of trouble, then at least part of the fault is yours.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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First off, be wary of blind invites. It's probably someone who is new at leading. I have gotten a blind invite from someone who can't speak english. As for the +2 mission, after the 1st wipe, if nobody else suggests it, try to suggest lowering the diff. Even at -1x8, the team has a higher xp/second rate than at +2x5 because a lot of mobs are dropping fast. I run my teams at +0 until I get more powers which is around 35ish or so. Then maybe, after a mish or 2, I will up the diff based on the team.|
Originally Posted by Quantumizer
pulled up somebody's +2 mission... all reds and purples, skulls... large packs, most with two bone daddies in them. Team wipe twice. Third time, I charge a pack
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After 2nd wipe, if the team insists on doing +2, have a ranged toon pull around the corner and pick them off 2 or 3 at a time.
On the 3rd wipe, maybe you can do a graceful quit and make some lame excuse like, 'sorry to go, but I have to help my (imaginary) friend.'
I'm the kind of player that in that situation, I would have grabbed 3 lucks from the Nurse in the hosp, went back into mish, aggroed two groups, and then pulled them into the pack of defenders.
They wanted you on the team, force them to help.
Show them that as long as the team works together, it isn't that hard. Once out of insps, just ask them for more before another rush, if they aren't forthcoming, or willing to run in with you, then it's time to solo or find a new team.
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
Hi all, thank you for the thoughts. This has been very helpful. Here's how I'd summarize what I've learned:
Blind invites: Don't accept them unless prepared for extra communication and/or an interesting tale to share on the boards. I like what seebs said about seeing blind invites as an opportunity to help other players learn the game. My default is always thinking that everyone else on the team knows more about playing than I do. Maybe after almost three years of paid time that's not true anymore.
Communication: I shouldn't be afraid to make suggestions or ask for help if things aren't going well. I like what Chyll suggested about making a light-hearted comment early on that both encourages a positive rapport and establishes some base expectations. I play at weird times, so I do a lot of soloing... I need to remember that a team is different and I might need to make some adjustments based on team makeup or the playstyle of the others.
Manners: I feel terrible about quitting without comment or attempting to set things aright. I'll not do that in the future.
Strategy and roles: I'll realize that on a team with an unusual makeup, it might be necessary to reconsider traditional roles, and to -- in a casual way -- find out what other people are thinking. And I won't try to tank with a scrapper without good support, especially at such a low level with such undeveloped defenses.
Thanks again, all.
I had a team experience a few nights ago that keeps nagging me, and I was hoping I could get some outside perspective on it and the questions it raised for me.
So, my level 7 Elec/SR scrapper was shopping in KR when I received a blind invite. Ok, I thought... why not? I accepted and found myself in the middle of a team of five -- count 'em, five -- time manip defenders, a controller, and I think a blaster. I was sk'd up to 11, I think. No other melee types. We finished some ho-hum save-level bank mish, then pulled up somebody's +2 mission... all reds and purples, skulls... large packs, most with two bone daddies in them. Team wipe twice. Third time, I charge a pack to start hacking down a boss, go down, then swivel camera to see all the defenders bunched up a ways back. I got pissed, hit the hospital, then hit the quit button (a few seconds later, I saw most of my former teammates materialize back at the hospital, too -- another wipe). I never have quit without saying something.
Chewing it over afterward, I tried to understand why I was so pissed. Maybe it was because I understood my job as DPS, and I understood the defenders' job as... well... to defend. Why didn't I have at least 3x Temporal Selection on me (+90% dam, +450% regen), and why weren't the defs bunched up around me to keep me in their healing auras? They were all standing back in their collective auras. Sure, I know ranged AT's stay at range, but with no tank, everything is going to be in melee pretty soon anyway, and you better keep your DPS alive so he can cut down the real problem children (freakin' bone daddies). I guess I could have hung back there with them, but that looks kind of goofy... the scrapper hanging back waiting for whatever happens to come his way.
But then I started wondering about my own culpability. Maybe I wasn't right to think of my role as so central. Or do the roles shift with such a drastically unbalanced makeup (I would have thought if anything the scrapper becomes more central -- there being only one -- but I could be wrong). Maybe I should have taken one look at the team makeup and either asked for some backup, or politely departed. Should I have made some comments and suggestions on tactics? Were my own tactics brash and cavalier? (I am, after all, an SR scrapper, not a Stone tanker). Would all this be a non-issue if I just hadn't accepted a blind invite in the first place?
Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this? Thanks.
P.S.
Since this is an exercise in introspection, I warmly welcome all honest comments, even those that reflect negatively on my gameplay, manners, personality, intelligence, heritage, or personal hygiene