Devs Haet Hoarding
The problem of having to wait for more incarnate content wouldn't exist if they'd just grant the stuff from regular lvl 50+ mobs... They could still add trials for unique content, but we shouldn't be forced to grind to progress. This isn't WoW...
Plus, it makes a mockery of the storyline. |
Well, I don't think the Dev's have any plans to change how the system works (and believe me I have a few complaints too) so I've been speaking from a position of accepting things as they are and dealing with future additions in a way that I think would be reasonable.
And this is why I don't bother with the incarnate system anymore. If they're going to make all my effort pointless, I won't bother wasting the effort in the first place.
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This of course has nothing to do with whether you like or want to progress through what's available now. I'm addressing the idea that time spent doing so would be wasted.
Edit: Reading more posts, I'm guessing you're actually talking about running iTrials beyond what you need to get where you wanted... why would anyone do that? Why are you making a point to complain about doing something that it doesn't make sense for anyone to do?*
* Bear in mind that there are other reasons to play iTrials than Incarnate progress, now. Astrals and Empyreans can buy stuff. Again, setting aside whether any given individual is (still) willing to run the trials, and just observing that something can be gained from doing so, even if all of a person's characters are "done" with Incarnate stuff from them.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
First, "thousands"? Maybe a couple hundred. Not everyone likes grinding trials endlessly. Yours truly included.
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Second, what the hell are you talking about? Without running a single trial? How the hell do you think they GOT their current salvage? Running RIDICULOUS amounts of trials! |
And with the differentiation between 4 types of salvage (Common through Very Rare), the dumb luck of acquiring anything in the last two tiers and the absolutely punitive up-conversion costs to build the rare and very rare salvage if you aren't getting the drops. I'd say it's only natural for people to hoard this stuff. And if they happen to be able to get the top-tier of the next slot(s) before they dive into the new content that accompanies the slots, so be it. EVERYONE isn't doing it. And these people have put the effort into accumulation. Why not let them enjoy the fruits of their labor? |
The other problem is that many players feel cheated when others are able to get something immediately and they aren't. The devs don't want parts of the player base to become disenchanted when a subset of players gets something "too fast."
Yes, I agree totally that people who did all this work to get all this salvage earned it. But human beings are notoriously illogical and jealous. They don't care that people earned something. At the very least, they feel cheated because they just don't have the time to run the same trials endlessly to hoard 800 empyrean merits, thousands of astrals and dozens of rares and very rares. These people wouldn't think it "fair" that hoarders would be able to get a head start and get all the incarnate powers five minutes after logging on.
It's roughly analogous -- though obviously not identical -- to the people who ragequit the game because of PLing in AE. They feel the whole experience is cheapened because some people can get something quickly and they can't.
By putting everyone on an equal footing when new content is introduced, the devs can sidestep issues of petty jealousy and keep players in the game longer.
Like you, I don't really care what other people have. So what if someone else gets a T4 Omega power immediately? Assuming the new trials will give new iXP and new salvage at the same rate as the current trials do, hundreds of players will have T3 powers within a few hours of the issue going live. Because, honestly, it doesn't really take all that long to get to T3, and T3 powers are all I've ever needed.
The problem is that so many of us have so many characters, and we want them all to get the new stuff. That's when the mind-numbing grindiness of the trials really takes hold. "You mean I have to do these 20 trials for 47 more characters? That's almost a thousand trials!"
But that's not the devs' fault. That's our fault.
The developers are not good at figuring out how to incentivize desired behaviors.
On the one hand: the structure of the trials requires that experienced players continue to run them indefinitely, because without enough player interest in general it isn't possible to run trials at all, and without enough experienced player interest it's difficult to run trials successfully. Therefore, there must be a continued use for the currencies they provide, and a promise of future uses for same, to keep players running trials and hoarding currency.
On the other hand: the structure of the trials requires that many players must have a reason to run each new trial, or again there will not be sufficient population to make the trial viable. Therefore, each new trial must award something unique to that trial which has not been previously pre-hoarded and cannot be obtained through running only the easiest or most popular (same thing, really) trial. They learned this lesson once with Katie farms and then apparently need to learn it again with the BAF.
On the gripping hand: what the devs learned from PvP (but never actually applied to PvP) is that when some form of activity is only entertaining (or possible) if enough people are doing it, then that activity needs to be sufficiently incentivized to ensure that people are doing it a lot. Which means a) that any alternative offering the same type of rewards must award them in drastically lower quantities (see: ship raids vs any other way to earn Vanguard merits), and b) that the players must never feel that they have enough of the reward in question.
It's actually not a simple problem, if you allow that the developers are obliged to provide sufficient incentive support to league-type content to make that content maximally viable for people who like league-type content.
@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Just to add, based specifically on Positron's blog on the subject (which I had read before I20 came out), I do expect them to create new component requirements for the next wave of Incarnate slots.
I also have some expectation that those new components may only drop from trials released with and after the new slots. However, doing that creates the issue that the new "tier" of iTrials will start over the cycle of not having enough different trials to run, and if the devs have learned anything from these first four slots, I hope it's that the community really dislikes that "content reset". For that reason, I am hopeful that they will instead be more inventive. However, I have a hard time seeing them let a BAF be worth equal progress as something designed to expect us to have two or four more Incarnate powers. That doesn't mean the BAF has to be completely off the list, but it probably means its reward has to suffer some lossy conversion to the new "tier" rewards.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
When I came over here to look at this topic, I thought it was going to be on the ridiculously LOW number of storage slots in Salvage Racks inside of Bases. You can now have a CHARACTER who can hold as much invention salvage as FOUR Salvage Racks in a Base now. That's completely out of whack.
But no ... I see it's about grinding out Incarnate Stuff™. Feh.
![](http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7840/groove1.gif)
You really think they will put any significant unlocks in Incarnate anymore? They are going to make you pay for it now.
What I'm worried about is the "necessities" for unlocking the next round of slots. My Incarnate desires have never been more than one or two of the Incarnate powers per character (a couple don't even have anything past Alpha). None have any Lore nor Destiny powers, and only one actually has those unlocked. Based on the pattern, all of the current slots will have to be unlocked before one can access the later slots. If there are powers released in the next wave that conceptually apply to one of my characters, I could have to power through up to 4 slots worth of iXP just to access them.
That's where that "iXP Delegation" feature would have been smart to input. People would be able to choose which slots they unlocked and which they just wanted nothing to do with. Too late now though I guess...
I am not hoarding anything, mainly because I have no desire nor reason to play the trials any more (I only wanted about a third of the stuff they put behind Christy and Michael). If/when more powers and/or rewards are released, I'll worry about purchasing them when that time comes.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
![](http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i382/Winterminal/Talsorian-BannerGrey.png)
When I came over here to look at this topic, I thought it was going to be on the ridiculously LOW number of storage slots in Salvage Racks inside of Bases. You can now have a CHARACTER who can hold as much invention salvage as FOUR Salvage Racks in a Base now. That's completely out of whack.
But no ... I see it's about grinding out Incarnate Stuff™. Feh. |
My Brute can hold 155 salvage (and Ive still got another 50 to buy) and 100 in his vault.
*Shrug*
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
If you allow the threads and salvage we have now to open the new incarnate slots and build the new powers, then thousands -- okay, hundreds -- of players will have those new powers 5 minutes after they log the first time, without running any of the new trials.
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If they're already rocking the other trials so endlessly, there's a good chance they'll hit these too. And if they have them in minutes, who actually cares? I don't. It doesn't affect me at all. Indeed, if they actually were crazy enough to do that many damn trials to build up reserves they DESERVE to be able to immediately craft up.
You seem to misunderstand me. I'm not in favor of new currencies, I'm just speculating what the apparent motivations of the developers are and what the consequences of reusing existing currencies would be. I'm assuming the devs don't want players to get instant access to new powers because it "cheapens" the content, making it possible to obtain it with no further investment in time and money. Which is contrary to obvious business goals. |
The other problem is that many players feel cheated when others are able to get something immediately and they aren't. The devs don't want parts of the player base to become disenchanted when a subset of players gets something "too fast." |
Conceptually, the iTrials are the equivalent of what other games do when they raise the level cap and give you a bunch of new raids which you run endlessly in order to acquire new gear that makes your old gear obsolete. The reason for acquiring the new gear is, of course, how it looks and the fact that you need the new gear to run the new raids efficiently.
The only new thing is that we wave our hands about how we're not really raising the level cap (even though the effect is more or less comparable) and we drop currency that's used to buy/craft the loot instead of dropping the loot directly.
Since every iTrial is essentially a mini-expansion and a virtual raising of the power ceiling, I expect that every new iTrial will continue to be accompanied by it's own custom currency. The alternative is to be like everyone else and drop costume bits and what-not as loot.
The only saving grace in the whole thing is that nobody actually needs to ever become an incarnate.
If they're already rocking the other trials so endlessly, there's a good chance they'll hit these too. And if they have them in minutes, who actually cares? I don't. It doesn't affect me at all. Indeed, if they actually were crazy enough to do that many damn trials to build up reserves they DESERVE to be able to immediately craft up.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
What I'm worried about is the "necessities" for unlocking the next round of slots. My Incarnate desires have never been more than one or two of the Incarnate powers per character (a couple don't even have anything past Alpha). None have any Lore nor Destiny powers, and only one actually has those unlocked. Based on the pattern, all of the current slots will have to be unlocked before one can access the later slots. If there are powers released in the next wave that conceptually apply to one of my characters, I could have to power through up to 4 slots worth of iXP just to access them.
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Now, I understand there being a distaste for this. Until now, the sidekick system has mitigated this effect to a significant degree. There's currently no such thing as "incarnate sidekicks". But I'm specifically addressing letting us apply our iXP where we want to the extent that we get to skip slots. That creates a potential spread in power for characters in the trials that I am not sure is manageable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
My response is "So what?"
If they're already rocking the other trials so endlessly, there's a good chance they'll hit these too. And if they have them in minutes, who actually cares? I don't. |
Which is kind of what I'm irritated about. Now, if it is merely a difference between running tons of them to build stuff up that's one thing. If its' "SuperJoeBlow ran 30 trials and got all the salvage he'll need to craft tier 4's" while SuperJohnDoe runs 10x that many and is still having problems getting stuff together or is having to cash in Empyreans due to the luck(lessness) of the drop? That's what irritates me. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I can't know for sure, of course, but if we have 100,000 players in the game, it's not unreasonable to assume that 1-2% have been running trials endlessly for months. This is based on my running trials with dozens of my own characters across four servers while watching numerous other players run the same characters through the trial every time.
I thought it was obvious from context that I'm talking future incarnate abilities that would be opened up by the upcoming trials. If you allow the threads and salvage we have now to open the new incarnate slots and build the new powers, then thousands -- okay, hundreds -- of players will have those new powers 5 minutes after they log the first time, without running any of the new trials. |
The other problem is that many players feel cheated when others are able to get something immediately and they aren't. The devs don't want parts of the player base to become disenchanted when a subset of players gets something "too fast." Yes, I agree totally that people who did all this work to get all this salvage earned it. But human beings are notoriously illogical and jealous. They don't care that people earned something. At the very least, they feel cheated because they just don't have the time to run the same trials endlessly to hoard 800 empyrean merits, thousands of astrals and dozens of rares and very rares. These people wouldn't think it "fair" that hoarders would be able to get a head start and get all the incarnate powers five minutes after logging on. It's roughly analogous -- though obviously not identical -- to the people who ragequit the game because of PLing in AE. They feel the whole experience is cheapened because some people can get something quickly and they can't. |
Perhaps a more apt analogy would be when the invention system was introduced. Veteran players had accumulated much, much more inf than newer players and could easily afford to buy the IO's and recipes they desired as they came to the market, while others labored through the same TF's again and again. Where was the outcry for fairness then?
Which is kind of what I'm irritated about. Now, if it is merely a difference between running tons of them to build stuff up that's one thing. If its' "SuperJoeBlow ran 30 trials and got all the salvage he'll need to craft tier 4's" while SuperJohnDoe runs 10x that many and is still having problems getting stuff together or is having to cash in Empyreans due to the luck(lessness) of the drop? That's what irritates me.
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Really, I think a system like the one Zortel describes would be best, eschewing the need for a new currency entirely and preventing hoarding, but that boat sailed a long time ago.
Unless you want to experience the new content. Just like you don't have to level beyond 30 if you don't care to see the content there.
I agree with this 100% and I have commented as such in other places. Progress to the third and fourth tiers seems to hinge on luck. The deterministic path to acquiring these things should produce faster results on average than random drops.
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Now, I don't like that there are random rolls, and therefore I would be OK if, with some other changes to go with it, the random rolls were indeed removed. But I have no illusions that the deterministic path would be faster than the random path we have now.* The devs have a vested interest in making this be a slog of some sort.
* And since I have had rather fantastic luck, my progress would probably be a lot slower under a purely deterministic system.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Odd in what way? Progression throughout the rest of the game does not come in random spurts. The incarnate system introduced a new system of progress that was divergent from what already existed. Imagine if the rest of the game played in a similar fashion; 1 bubble until level could mean defeat 100 more foes or 10.
In my perspective, the random reward should be a bonus, a little something extra.
I'll concede that it's a personal perspective. I enjoy working toward a set outcome more than risking a roll of the dice.
I'll concede that it's a personal perspective. I enjoy working toward a set outcome more than risking a roll of the dice.
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I'm not disagreeing with your preference - I actually share it. My manifestation of that though would be not to include random progress at all.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I've suggested similar before, it's a far more sensible solution. Use the incarnate trials to actually unlock the slots initially (but provide other ways to do that too), then let the player select the branches they iXP goes towards (and you earn iXP from any level 50 mobs). It'd be a far more enjoyable way because, primarily, you're NOT forced to grind those bloody trials.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
That system would be terrible. You're not 'forced' to 'grind' anything. It takes maybe a couple of days of play per slot, about a week to get rares in each slot.
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Actually I sort of like the system he suggested, just make the trials give much more incarnate exp than normal mobs do, and it'd be golden.
Complete the dungeon to access the random number generated loot, is so fantasy mmo.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
That system would be terrible. You're not 'forced' to 'grind' anything. It takes maybe a couple of days of play per slot, about a week to get rares in each slot.
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If you want those goodies in any timely fashion, you have no choice but grind. If, like me, you're more a casual player; forget it.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Odd in what way? Progression throughout the rest of the game does not come in random spurts. The incarnate system introduced a new system of progress that was divergent from what already existed. Imagine if the rest of the game played in a similar fashion; 1 bubble until level could mean defeat 100 more foes or 10.
In my perspective, the random reward should be a bonus, a little something extra. I'll concede that it's a personal perspective. I enjoy working toward a set outcome more than risking a roll of the dice. |
That it usually takes longer than the random rewards is wholly intentional. Otherwise, the random rewards are pointless.
I would also take issue with your assertion that progression isn't partially random in the rest of the game. Gear progression is, in this game and most other MMORPGs, as much a part of player power as level progression. The difference between a IOed to the gills level 50 and one in SOs shows that. IOs, like Incarnate abilities have both random and deterministic elements. The deterministic elements have been becoming more dominate over time. First the introduction of reward merits, then alignment merits, then Astrals/Empyrean merits have made earning IOs much easier.
Likewise, we are already seeing the first tip-toes into creating more deterministic paths to Incarnates. Earning thread/Astral merits from the Signature Arcs is just the first such way I'll bet.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
If you're running them every day for those days, 15 hours a day, maybe. Otherwise, bull poop.
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If you want those goodies in any timely fashion, you have no choice but grind. If, like me, you're more a casual player; forget it. |
If you did just ONE 30 minute BAF or Lambda a week, and alternated between them, you could have had at a minimum 3 rare Incarnate abilities. That's even if you didn't earn a single rare drop.
I don't see how you folks can seriously say that the Incarnate system is 'hardcore'. It's the easiest, most casual friendly endgame system out there, and not by a little bit.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
So farming the BAF wouldn't achieve anything in terms of progressing towards new goodies (aside from collecting components, which I think is fine.)
This started with the Task forces and the Punchy Mchit point model of bosses.