Premium Players get less than expected!

That is precisely the perceptual difference.
The two major mmorpgs that I have ever been associated with both had their new expansion as a perpetual over-arcing title of their game. I don't see them as frozen-in-time boxed items. That is simply the launch/release. The game may change within the new expansion as well.
Anyway, you pointed all of this out rather well! And I agree!

See, now this is where you're missing the main part of my distinction.
If it is gated by and/or requires the expansion... then it is part of it. That is not "meaningless".
There is zero difficulty in explaining, discussing, figuring that out.

And the example of Inventions and I6 is not a part of a paid-for expansion.
All of that, rightly-so, is considered part of City Of Heroes. It simply required access to the game.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

We are fortunate to have basked in your gleeful dissection of semantics.

Which brings me to my closing statement about your peculiar semantical tirade/inquisition.

Posting on the forums is only available for paying subscribers. Always has been, always will be. Within the forum's rules, we're allowed to discuss whatever we want, but there is a prerequisite. We had to be paying subscribers.

You could say that posting on the boards was "part of" having continuous uninterrupted access to City of *. After all, prior to Freedumb, if you could play the game you could post on the forums. Pay attention, this is where the semantics happen.

Now, legions of Freemium and Freedumb players have continual uninterrupted access to City of *. However, these legions of free players do not get access to things we considered "part of" City of * before - including both the forum and even live support.

Clearly, forum access is not a part of continual access to City of *. In truth, paying the bill is a prerequisite to forum access (and support).

Aren't semantics neat?

Here's how it ties into the Incarnate situation. There were more than one prerequisite for accessing Incarnate content, as Arcanaville has previously suggested.

One of the prerequisites was being level 50. No matter how much you wanted to experience Incarnate content, buying the GR box alone was not enough. You had to be level 50, as well. Further, you had to pay your monthly subscription after your 30 days were up. So it couldn't be said that Incarnates were "included" in the box. You couldn't roll a level one Incarnate. So it was not "included", it was a prerequisite.

Analogies are not always false. If the logic behind them is sound, they can be a very powerful tool. Semantics alone do not convey to one the gift of flawless logic.

Sorry if this sounds mean, but I think you were just being nitpicky to rile people up on a forum.

But there is, or there wouldn't be a debate. I find your definition of "included" to be so extreme that it destroys the ability to usefully use the word in communication without vast contextual qualification. I truly consider it akin looking at something that's "orange" and labeling it "red", because orange has some red in it. I get what you're saying, but I think the word "included" is wholly wrong to communicate what you're saying about Incarnates and GR.

And it is this error that leads you to continue to make further errors in your reply.

To me, insisting that something that requires the purchase of a paid expansion as not being part of that expansion is being nitpicky.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

You see, I find your definition to be exactly the same (great way of putting it).
Content that only comes with the purchase of an expansion is part of that expansion (at the time that the system came out, it required the purchase of that expansion in order to access it).
You saying, "that doesn't mean it is a part of it", to me, is equal to you saying that orange is not orange.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Given your rule, if I was an MMO developer and I decided to sell an expansion X that unlocked access to a zone, and then later decided to sell another expansion Y that unlocked a special feature in that zone, if I then say that expansion X is a prerequisite for the special feature but you still have to buy expansion Y to get it, you're saying I'm not allowed to do that by your rules of how MMOs are supposed to work; because the special feature is gated by and requires expansion X, then its a part of X by definition. I would be charging for the same feature twice. Furthermore if I decided to give away expansion X at a later date, I would be forced to give away the special feature because it was part of expansion X.

I would not consider myself to be bound to that rule myself.

No, I am not saying that, because there are no rules that cannot be broken.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Hey, before this, you had to buy City of Heroes to access any bit of the game. Going Rogue and Kheldians and Controllers and all the purchasable costume pieces had City of Heroes as a prerequisite.

I bought City of Heroes a long time ago. Obviously, since that was a requirement before, it's all included now. There shouldn't be a Paragon Market for me.

In the case we're discussing, it's being logical.

Wow, Dechs... I am disappoint in you.
You've ignored that this has NOTHING to do with the Paragon Market, Freedom or anything about that agenda.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

That sounds like you're saying I would be violating the rule in that case, but you'd be willing to grant me an exception.

I would not honor a game design rule that required me to break it and then hope for an exception to be granted.

The question really isn't whether some people think they deserve access to incarnates in Freedom by virtue of having purchased Going Rogue. The question is why should any game designer honor a rule that binds them in that fashion when it basically reduces to the whim of the person interpreting the rule.

Apologies if I've jumped into the middle of something here, but I have to agree that the Incarnate system is not a part of Going Rogue.

If insisting that new content and new systems that require purchase of an expansion is not part of that expansion is logical... you can keep your logic.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

So what happens if I sell you a new expansion that requires a prior expansion? Is my new expansion "part of" the old one? Are the features of my new expansion "included" in the fact that you bought the previous one?

This is a very unusual taxonomy.

Most people would view prerequisites for something as distinct from the thing itself. That's why we have all these words; to denote distinctions between a thing, and its prerequisites, and its dependencies, and so on.

The world is full of things which require something else, but are not part of that thing.

Not at all.
As you pointed out, you also required a subscription.
Now that subscriptions are not required under the new business model, the deals are all changed.
Subscribe, and you have what you had, regarding those deals. Unsubscribe... and you are not owed the benefits of the previous deal.

That is my point. So many people were using this semantic twist to defend the new business model... when that twist was not needed to defend it.
The demands that things should be kept under Premium are baseless.

And my perception that the Incarnate System was a part of the Going Rogue expansion because it required its purchase in order to access it, in no way devalues the fact that premium accounts are not due any aspect that Paragon Studios sees fit to withhold as VIP only.

(you missed all this and jumped in as though I was arguing something that I wasn't... which is okay, because that was a large part of my point. This is insistence by other people has greatly been about fighting an argument, rather than simple logic/truth)

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I ninja edited the post you quoted and I apologized for jumping into the middle of this.

I still agree with everyone else that the Incarnate System is not a part of Going Rogue. It's a prerequisite, not a piece.

It is a fun and silly thing to come up with distinctions for...
It would depend on a few things. What title the company wanted to go with afterward, I suppose...
I'd say that it required two expansions. No real need to try and manipulate things into simple terms. Things are what they are.
An expansion that requires another expansion.
As we've discussed up thread... this has actually happened.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

It's all good.
You know I don't usually get so invloved on these boards, but I figured I'd give a shot at some casual conversation about something that interested me (crazy people and their odd classification systems! ).

It is a difficult thing to maintain civility and a casual nature 'round these parts.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Strawman. Please refute the points I made, not the opinion I stated.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I really only enjoy discussing things with people who remain respectful.
If I have the time, I can go over your points later, if you would like.

EDIT:
Actually... that's pretty quick and simple:
Access to the forums was part of subscribing. What's your point?
Okay, there's more...
Incarnates require level 50:
Yeah, and different story arcs and content require different levels.
Incarnate Content is no different in that way.

Honestly, you made no valid point against anything about needing to purchase the Going Rogue expansion in order to partake in the Incarnate System when it opened up and how that can mean that it is a part of it.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I'm referring to the post I quoted stating that Controllers and Masterminds were not part of CoH and CoV respectively. I'm on the side of believing Incarnates are not a Going Rogue feature as they were never advertised as part of it, and Devs have specifically stated it was part of I19 and not Going Rogue, but the same can't be said of Controllers and Masterminds, which Terra Draconis seemed to be inferring was the case. They were advertised and directly linked to the game itself from launch of each respective title, thereby making them part of the game you were purchasing, whether it be the license to play it or not.

From the context of the post I was quoting, his statement was incorrect- Whereas Incarnates are not, from my point of view, part of the Going Rogue expansion, Controllers are directly a product of City of Heroes, and Masterminds are directly a product of City of Villains.