Premium Players get less than expected!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-09-24 05:58 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
By that logic then the F2P system in general is a significant erosion of the exclusive benefits of VIP subscribers. I don't think that you are saying that the system is bad, but rather pointing out that erosion of VIP exclusive benefits are not needed so long as buying those out are sufficiently costly. It is a similar argument to buying s lifetime subscription only without the ability to access all future content. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The correct argument against the notion that selling incarnate access would cause people to stop subscribing is that its hyperbole and no one thing is really capable of doing that extreme thing. However, because its irrelevant to the question of whether its a good idea or not, arguing against the point directly takes the bait of transferring the discussion to a point where its impossible to make any logical progress on any reasonable point regardless of the outcome.
Whether its a good idea or not depends less on if, and more on how. But its a true statement that allowing ala carte purchase of the incarnate system is a significant erosion on the exclusive benefits of VIP subscribers. There is no one specific point you can point to and say with any confidence "up to this point its ok and then past this point its bad." The problem is the first sign you'll have that you've gone too far is when you've irreparably damaged the game, and then its too late to say oops. |
If I were to suggest lifetime subscriptions for $300 then there wouldn't be an argument of eroding subscriber exclusive rights because lifetime subscription models are equivalent to subscriptions in people's minds. There may be other arguments for/against it, but none would say that lifetime subscribers are eroding exclusive rights. However, if I say you should be able to buy the incarnate system for $300 then the idea of exclusive rights comes up even if it is the same price for less benefit. This is where I feel flustered by the arguments. If I pay $300 for a lifetime account I am putting my money up for the right to play the game for as long as it lives. If I pay $300 for incarnate I am paying for the right to use incarnates as long as the game lives. There is no need for subscribers to have exclusive rights in order to maintain value. Value comes from getting access to all of these features and future features for $15 a month instead of $300+ dollars once and payment as new content comes out.
In fact this sort of system makes the idea of "lifetime subs" a much more viable option for developers. Instead of lifetime subscriptions the players can pay a lot of money for access to everything (which is equivalent to a lifetime sub at time of purchase), but still have them pay for large updates so that the developers still gain money from them.
Quote:
I know what the words mean. However, in this instance, it being a paid-for expansion, they are basically one and the same.|
Originally Posted by mogura
So what that means to me is that Incarnate content is not part of the Going Rogue package, but that the Going Rogue package is prerequisite to Incarnate content.
Much like French 201 is a prerequisite to French 351 (Francophone Society), but French 351 is decidedly not a part of French 201. Pretty simple, huh? |
I think the only distinction is that the initial expansion purchase was not focused on the Incarnate content (and did not include it right away), yet it is still connected to it down the road.
Since I don't see an mmorpg expansion as a one-time purchase/event (I see it as a continuous experience of content that will umbrella many things as time goes by), citing a connection, but not being a part of it seems somewhat odd to me.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mogura
[Edit: Telling people to not use analogies? Really? How about not using logic, reason, analytical thinking, or even pattern recognition in crafting a response? I mean really, the less we think about this, the easier it is to expect to get stuff for free that we've always had to pay for prior to the Free Trial being extended from 14 days to infinity. Think less, qq more! YEAH!!!1]
|
I don't see any qq-ing from me... your little EDIT there, however...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by St_Angelius
Or to put it another way in purely game terms, being L50 is a prerequiste to bein an incarnate, but being level 50 doesn't automaticatlly unlock incarnate abilities.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Or being a Hero is a prerequisite to becoming a Vigilante.
|
You needed to buy GR in order to take part in it. And you needed a subscription. What is so difficult about the Incarnate content being attached to GR?
Admitting it does not give any bit of credence to the people asking for Incarnate Content to be opened up for Premiums.
It's okay.
Really.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
Nit-pick, but being a Villain is pre-req for being a Rogue.
|
Originally Posted by St_Angelius
Or being a Rogue, but yes.
|
Quote:
<<did you see them too?>> |
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Are you sure the mice didn't steal your thoughts and run away with them? That is what happens with me.
|
Seems like alot of people weren't hooked on phonics. Premium players will retain MOST of what they had when they paid 4 the game.
Definitions of Most
ADJECTIVE:
Superlative of many, much.
Greatest in number: won the most votes.
Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion.
In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins.
NOUN:
The greatest amount or degree: She has the most to gain.
Slang The greatest, best, or most exciting. Used with the: That party was the most!
PRONOUN:
(used with a sing. or pl. verb) The greatest part or number: Most of the town was destroyed. Most of the books were missing.
ADVERB:
Superlative of much.
In or to the highest degree or extent. Used with many adjectives and adverbs to form the superlative degree: most honest; most impatiently.
Very: a most impressive piece of writing.
Informal Almost: Most everyone agrees.
Quote:
And, maybe this would actually help you understand why I asked for no analogies...|
Originally Posted by mogura
[Edit: Telling people to not use analogies? Really? How about not using logic, reason, analytical thinking, or even pattern recognition in crafting a response? I mean really, the less we think about this, the easier it is to expect to get stuff for free that we've always had to pay for prior to the Free Trial being extended from 14 days to infinity. Think less, qq more! YEAH!!!1]
|
(Again, I have zero issue with what is free, what is not, what is VIP-Only and so on... I am not arguing ANY of that. I completely disagree with the O.P.)
In this particular case, we are talking about a very peculiar thing: an mmorpg expansion. More specifically: Going Rogue and subsystems that require that paid-for expansion.
Some people insist that they are not one and the same. Yet, you needed to pay for the expansion to access the content.
A prerequisite, in this case, is the connection... it ties them together.
You did not need to buy the AE box in order to use the AE.
You did not need to buy GR in order to access Ultra Mode options.
You did need to buy GR in order to access Incarnate Content.
They are connected.
What is the connection if the subsystem is not a part of the expansion?
What is the meaning of "prerequisite" in this case?
SG bases were a part of CoV.
CoV wasn't just a prerequisite...
Was GR just a prerequisite to getting the new costume pieces?
The fact that the Incarnate System was also 100% based around the Going Rogue's Praetoria just makes it second cousins, once removed... as opposed to... PART OF IT?
I am bringing this up for discussion not because there is some bone to pick with how things were divided up for Freedom or how things were handled by the development team... I have no such complaints!
I only bring it up because I see a bunch of forum-users repeating this mantra as though it means something... But I don't think that it does. I think it sounds ridiculous (in a funny way). So, I'm addressing it. I'm completely willing to have a reasonable conversation about it (and have with some people elsewhere).
So far... I just see it as a silly bit of semantics... When, really... it is what it is. The endgame content came later, but they gated it behind the purchase of Going Rogue (until their new business model came out).
It's no big deal.
But... until now... the Incarnate Content was directly tied to Going Rogue (which was tied to having a subscription, of course).
Nothing wrong with that!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
Your explanation isn't that useful since the official site says "retain nearly everything", not "retain most" anyway.
|
Originally Posted by mogunz02
Seems like alot of people weren't hooked on phonics. Premium players will retain MOST of what they had when they paid 4 the game.
Definitions of Most |
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
I think this is the major hangup for everyone who's, well, hung up on this point.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
What is the connection if the subsystem is not a part of the expansion?
|
I suspect that this connection was almost totally arbitrary.
As I mentioned earlier, there are obvious "soft" links between Incarnates and the GR setting, since the progression of the Well of the Furies sub-story has been wrapped up with the Praetorian arch villains. Other than that, there's no obvious, direct, mechanical connection. Incarnate abilities have nothing technical to do with the central theme of Going Rogue, which was side switching and morality.
Remember, we have learned that the devs have been working on F2P features for a very long time. They probably had already decided that Incarnates would be subscriber-only before GR was even released. Knowing that, they may have wanted to gate it behind something, even during the subscriber-only phase (which is when the Incarnate content was released) to establish in advance that it was special, reserved content. Since, at that time, everyone who could play at 50 was a subscriber, the only thing that they could anchor it to was some sort of purchase. The most obvious thing we could purchase at that time was Going Rogue.
While the above is pure speculation, it's not speculation I invented just for this thread. I've been viewing the link between GR and Incarnates this way ever since it was announced that Incarnates would be VIP only. People are assuming that the link implies that Incarnates were somehow a feature of GR, because you had to buy GR to use them. I don't think that's the case. I think GR may just have been the most local flag they could gate access behind, and when F2P went live, they gated it instead behind something else that was their real target all along.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Absolutely. In fact, I responded to someone (I think it was you) in this thread, mentioning that very same theory.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I think this is the major hangup for everyone who's, well, hung up on this point.
I suspect that this connection was almost totally arbitrary. As I mentioned earlier, there are obvious "soft" links between Incarnates and the GR setting, since the progression of the Well of the Furies sub-story has been wrapped up with the Praetorian arch villains. Other than that, there's no obvious, direct, mechanical connection. Incarnate abilities have nothing technical to do with the central theme of Going Rogue, which was side switching and morality. Remember, we have learned that the devs have been working on F2P features for a very long time. They probably had already decided that Incarnates would be subscriber-only before GR was even released. Knowing that, they may have wanted to gate it behind something, even during the subscriber-only phase (which is when the Incarnate content was released) to establish in advance that it was special, reserved content. Since, at that time, everyone who could play at 50 was a subscriber, the only thing that they could anchor it to was some sort of purchase. The most obvious thing we could purchase at that time was Going Rogue. While the above is pure speculation, it's not speculation I invented just for this thread. I've been viewing the link between GR and Incarnates this way ever since it was announced that Incarnates would be VIP only. People are assuming that the link implies that Incarnates were somehow a feature of GR, because you had to buy GR to use them. I don't think that's the case. I think GR may just have been the most local flag they could gate access behind, and when F2P went live, they gated it instead behind something else that was their real target all along. |
And, yeah, nothing wrong with that approach.
However... as costumers... tell me, what is the difference of what you said and the Incarnate System being a part of Going Rogue?
If I had to purchase Going Rogue in order to access the Incarnate System... How is it not a part of it?
From our perspective, how is it not one and the same?
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
Going Rogue can be considered part of the Incarnate System as much as any other prerequisite, but that does not mean that the reverse is true.
|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
If I had to purchase Going Rogue in order to access the Incarnate System... How is it not a part of it?
|
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
Haha!|
Originally Posted by Aneko
Going Rogue can be considered part of the Incarnate System as much as any other prerequisite, but that does not mean that the reverse is true.
|
What do you honestly think that statement means?
You had to purchase Going Rogue in order to take part in the Incarnate Content.
There is zero ambiguity there.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
I haven't disputed that. However, the Incarnate System is not part of Going Rogue.
|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Haha!
What do you honestly think that statement means? You had to purchase Going Rogue in order to take part in the Incarnate Content. There is zero ambiguity there. |
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
We're talking in the past tense though...|
Originally Posted by Aneko
I haven't disputed that. However, the Incarnate System is not part of Going Rogue.
|
The Incarnate System was a part of Going Rogue.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
A small part of it, during testing. Irrelevant.
|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
We're talking in the past tense though...
The Incarnate System was a part of Going Rogue. |
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
No, after it went live.|
Originally Posted by Aneko
A small part of it, during testing. Irrelevant.
|
It was a part of it.
I know. I was there. You had to pay for it in order to take part in that system.
Hehe... don't get me wrong... It means nothing. It's just that every time someone mentions that the system was a part of Going Rogue, someone uses analogies to express something that makes no sense in the true context of what they're discussing.
The Striped Cat Tail was part of the Animal Booster pack.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
It wasn't. I was also there. And in GR Beta, when it was removed.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
No, after it went live.
It was a part of it. I know. I was there. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
You had to pay for it in order to take part in that system.
|
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
It was pushed back/delayed. Not removed.|
Originally Posted by Aneko
It wasn't. I was also there. And in GR Beta, when it was removed.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aneko
And I'm saying that does not mean what you think it does.
|
There is zero ambiguity. As a customer, one had to buy it in order to take part in it. It is simple. No further explanations need to be given and I'm not sure why people feel the need to divide them.
They were combined. Only words, after the fact, attempt to divide them.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
Removed from Going Rogue and released as part of a later issue.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
It was pushed back/delayed. Not removed.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Not, it means exactly what it means.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
There is zero ambiguity. As a customer, one had to buy it in order to take part in it. It is simple. No further explanations need to be given and I'm not sure why people feel the need to divide them.
They were combined. Only words, after the fact, attempt to divide them. |
They were not "combined". The Incarnate System is not part of Going Rogue. Repeating yourself endlessly is not going to make it true.
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Quote:
| The epic endgame content, that centered around the locations and main villains of Going Rogue, was not a part of the Going Rogue expansion that you had to purchase in order to participate in. |
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
You seem to care a lot for someone who doesn't care :P|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
|
But personally, I don't care if you care
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
Quote:
Isn't this whole thread just one long nit-pick at the end of the day?
|
Originally Posted by Aquila_NA
Nit-pick, but being a Villain is pre-req for being a Rogue.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
You seem to care a lot for someone who doesn't care :P
But personally, I don't care if you care |
I just find it odd! I like to point out oddities and play with them.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Pax slide stated: A "Taste" in going rogue, but the slide was, in fact, part of i19 info.
Devs said: "Sneak Peak" being released with Going Rogue.
Does not mean the system itself was to be part of Going Rogue only attached in that you were required to own GR as a requisite to taking part. This was to prevent players who did not purchase the expansion from taking part in the content.
The Alpha was removed because we, the players, found it too grindy and wanted content to go with it. NOTE: iTrial were not in the beta at all nor any means to get Astrals and Emperials. The original Tier1 and 2 had to be built with shards from certain (already in the game) Task Forces. Thus, even with the slimmest argument, iTrials should not be given to Premiums at all only the means to get Shards via the Weekly Strike Targets. Annnd if you realy want to go into slimmest then only the first two tiers of the Alpha slot.
Now, the only requirement is you be a VIP. It is no longer locked behind Going Rogue. And no where on the box or preorder information was there listed anything about Incarnates being part of Going Rogue.
What it boils down to is entitlement. Again, Freedom was not designed for the existing player base to step down to Premium. It was not set up to even approximate a Lifetime subscription (again, the devs said they would not be offering this.) I find it ridiulous that people are complaining because they can't play for free. Keep the subscription going and you barely lose anything.
So, you have to buy bundled costume sets. We were doing that at $10 a pop anyway. Now those same bundles are coming out at $5 a pop (Win). Horde your points and you'll still get you free powersets. The devs any stated VIPs would still be getting additional content with the Issue Updates (This included costume sets and powersets.) Yes, you have to spend real money to get your storage increase, costume slots, etc, but none of this was game breaking before and still isn't.
And again, you get 400 points a month and one free server transfer ($15.) Basically, you are playing for free but with some additional perks.
All this being said, I'm a VIP and staying that way because I love this game and enjoy contributing to its ongoing development. I have no sense of entitlement, but rather a sense of giving my support to a hobby that has given me enjoyment over the years.
Quote:
Devil's advocate is always fun :P I just hate the random misinformation that people squeeze out of it (not your questioning, but the small perceptions that slip by). |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I just find it odd! I like to point out oddities and play with them. |
This is my first and last mmo, yet I used common sense to figure out the big things would be held back for ViPs in the f2p hybrid. You've already said you're fine (and knew/accepted it) with it as long as someone admits they're wrong, I just don't think that's helping anything. The worse thing about a game's "community" can be it's "community".
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
Right now there are two ways of looking at that argument. You can look at other games which have allowed people to buy into the end game and have succeeded or there is talking about conjecture and assumption. I prefer to take the approach of looking at facts rather than whatever I want to believe.
That being said, I do personally think that being able to buy the incarnate system is a good idea for the overall health and growth of the game. I believe that buying the incarnate slots (and access* to the tier one powers within them) for $15 per slot and then to buy the higher tier access* at $10 per tier would be both fair to subscribers and would allow for people who didn't want to subscribe a way to buy into the end game. Keeping in mind that to buy the entirety of the incarnate system under this would cost $450 and that this is just one of the things subscribers have access to for their $15 a month.
I really can not understand in the slightest the idea that the ability to pay $450 one time and then $5 a month (for the story arcs) and another $5 a month (to make up for the TP from subscribing if you want to buy powersets or costumes in the future) and also pay for future zone content (as with first ward) would somehow make it so everyone would stop subbing. Especially since you would need to pay a lot more than $450 that one time in order to keep the character slots, epic arc types and other benefits if you were to stop subbing. If someone wants to explain this point of view to me then I would be more than happy to hear it.
If you want I can also cite how lifetime subs also don't end up making it so no one subs even though they cost a lot less than what I proposed above.
*Access meaning, of course, the ability to earn those within the game not automatically gaining those abilities.
Whether its a good idea or not depends less on if, and more on how. But its a true statement that allowing ala carte purchase of the incarnate system is a significant erosion on the exclusive benefits of VIP subscribers. There is no one specific point you can point to and say with any confidence "up to this point its ok and then past this point its bad." The problem is the first sign you'll have that you've gone too far is when you've irreparably damaged the game, and then its too late to say oops.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)