Premium Players get less than expected!

Oh, yeah. I think they have to keep the Incarnate System within VIP in the business model they're going with, Makes perfect sense and would be crazy not to.
And I am honestly not just being the devil's advocate in what I was bringing up.
I just don't like seeing weird twistings of things, whether they come from marketing-talk, misconceptions or whatever... Honestly, I especially don't like truth to be twisted in order to defend a valid point.
The whole slant just sounds like something George Carlin would pick on with great humor.
This makes no real sense:
"The epic endgame content, that centered around the locations and main villains of Going Rogue, was not a part of the Going Rogue expansion that you had to purchase in order to participate in."

It was a part of it, heeehee!

Honestly though, perhaps I shouldn't have bothered to continue it in this thread (as the OP and main topic is far from reasonable). I talked about it elsewhere on these forums and it was a nice reasonable conversation.

Since so many were talking about this aspect here, I thought I'd get a good discussion about it.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

That is the thing, you are giving people that are making those claims extra ammunition bassed on a false premise. Just because I have to buy a satalite/cable TV decoder from one of the digital TV providers here does not mean the satalite/cable servise is part of that purchase. There is absolutlely no other way for me to use their servise without buying the box first, but buying the box does not mean i get access to their servise. As is the case here.

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.

This isn't a false premise nor is it a satellite/cable service...
It is epic endgame content, that centered around the locations and main villains of Going Rogue, that you're claiming was not a part of the Going Rogue expansion even though that you had to purchase that particular Going Rogue expansion in order to participate in it.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Not if we are getting more value for our money than before, and the value add proposition is equal to or higher than our original subscription value. The one is not tantamount to the other.

Just like the cable/satalise servise provides and epic TV package compared to what is availible for free that requires the purchase of a particular decoder box to use. No, it is not exactly the same, because there is nothing exactly the same as COH, GR and Incarnate abilities, but it is the same deal. Purchase of product A grants access to Service B, that is only accessable through the purchase of product A but not a direct part of it.

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.

In all sincerity, why do you make that distinction, with this content that was only accessible through the purchase of that expansion, as opposed to it just simply being a part of it?

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I make the distinction, because that is how the real world works. What you are saying is what the people that are claiming that incarnates were part of GR are using, and thus should be free to those who bought GR.

The fact that the Ifarms are centred around the characters and locations of GR just means, to my mind at least, that the devs just wanted to get a bit more post L20 use out of them.

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.

See, every time people say the system isn't a part of the expansion, they keep the conversation within defense against someone vying for something to do with the Freedom business model.
That is not necessary.
And what about the fact that it is connected through purchase as well?

I just see it as a matter of semantics. To me, in the case of an mmorpg expansion, your "prerequisite" = part of the expansion.
What is the difference?

I'm not addressing the "in the real world" comment. I'm keeping it respectful and reasonable.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I am also trying to keep it respectful and reasonable, as i have done with all my posts in this thread.

The reason people keep saying that is because the whole reason this thread was created and has been continued this long is some prems want incarnates for free coz they bought GR. Which, as you said, you don't aggree with and is far from reasonable.

As for the Difference, because the Dev say it isn't and make no mention of it in reguards to GR in any official documentation. and really, what is part of what and what is free, or purchasable, to prems is their choice, not the players.

Yes, I agree that in the past, Incarnates could have been concidered a part of GR under a completely different business model. But that is the past, that is not what we have now.

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.

Ahh, I love an elitist.

Here, how about this. Your game company is LUCKY THEY HAVE ANY CONSUMERS AT ALL. You think they're giving something away for nothing? Or that they're somehow doing this desperate scheme out of the goodness of their hearts? Of course not. F2P is an effort to save an old game reaching the end of it's natural life cycle. It is hoped that the teaser from being Premium will prompt people to want more and pay the monthly sub to have access to it. This is also perfectly above board and natural.

However, the doublespeak and sidemouthing what's available with what account type and is not is bad business. It's sounds and feels shady because it's a shady way to do things. Getting all freaky elitist and declaring yourself empress of crap hill in comparison to people pointing out the flaws in the account systems isn't a good way to help anything. People raising concerns that may be new to them are not OMGWHINZORRZ, they are performing a necessary function in this transition. They NCSoft team or the PS team or whoever is in command of this fiasco are guilty of enough bait and switch and doublespeak, not to mention price gouging and other unseemliness that it leaves a bad taste after looking it over.

I will just continue to pay my monthly sub as I always have, but I think I'm not going to be using this little paragon store anymore. It's just too shady, and the people pointing out the disparity between what's generally advertised and is available are not wrong to do so, regardless of how it offends your ego. You are not better than them, your opinion is not more valid or better than theirs, or more necessary. As far as combing through post after post or scouring the website for what's part of what, that's just irresponsible marketing, or worse, and more likely given NCSoft's history, deliberately misleading.



END OF LINE

there has been no doublespeak or side mouthing over incarnates being vip only, as long as there has been info on who gets what incarnates has been listed as VIP.

And it's not elietest to say prems are lucky to get anything without a sub, even by your own argument we are all lucky to be playing the game at all after 7 years, not all MMO's make it thus far, and though many have gone free to play now all have, and COH is at least not as limiting as a certain other overbloated monstrosity that has given a very limited free to play service. We are all lucky, just some are more lucky than others. The game could have closed up shop and none of us would be able to play and NCSoft could have moved on to something else that was subscriber only.

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.

What happens if something has more than one prerequisite? If "the" prerequisite is the thing that actually purchased the item in question, what happens when there are two prereqs? Hypothetically speaking, how would you decide when you "bought" the thing then?

I should point out that Freedom is *not* the first time this entire subject was debated. It was debated *at the time* when the Alpha slot sneak peak was pulled from Going Rogue and people complained Going Rogue "promised" the incarnate system. The devs said then that incarnates were never officially part of Going Rogue. It cannot therefore be a surprise now that the devs are continuing to have the exact same position on incarnates and Going Rogue that they expressed before Going Rogue launched.

Analogies are actually pretty apt here. Especially the ones regarding things that are a prerequisite.

Example:

1)Because you needed to have Going Rogue to access Incarnate content, that means Incarnate content is in fact PART of Going Rogue. (That's what you're saying, right?)

2)Now, at my college, English Composition I is required to get a degree, any degree. Since it is a prerequisite, that means that every degree the college offers degree is PART of English Composition I. (See? Exact same logic)

If the first is true, as you are asserting, then the second HAS TO be true as well because it is coming to the exact same logical conclusion as the first.

I can tell you right now that the college does NOT consider every degree they offer to be part of a single class simply because that class is a prerequisite. If they did, you would be entitled to any degree you like on successful completion of English Composition I, since that degree would be part of the class.

Since the second is most definitely NOT true, it kind of shoots the first in the foot as well.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

If you really believe all of this is true, and yet continue to pay your subscription as you always have, then you are adding to the problem.

You are SUPPORTING their "doublespeak, bait and switch, and misleading policies" by continuing to subscribe.

If you believe what they are doing is wrong, why are you pledging your support to it?

In MY book, knowingly continuing to support something you personally believe is wrong makes you JUST AS GUILTY OF IT.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Here's the quandry I run into with that, Claws, because I believe you are correct in your assessment. However, I can never figure out if it's NCSoft or PS that's guilty of this kind of crap. Whose marketing is responsible for this? Would my cancellation of my accounts make a meaningful impact either way?

No, I don't think it would, but I DO think that by drawing attention to it over and over, the same way everything works with this game, is the only way to get it addressed in a meaningful fashion. While not always successful, that tactic seems to have a better track record than most other avenues in our game's history. That, and warning people off or encouraging them to join again on our various websites and other concerns.

Other than that, there isn't a great deal I can do to impact this game or the direction it takes here and there. A lot of positive changes have come out of Freedom, but if history dictates anything with the future of CoX, it's that the development team will stop well short of the necessary steps to effect a lasting positive impact in a way that will keep new revenue coming, and that their marketing boneheads will continue to be a disaster.

Other than piping up here and there to draw attention to those issues, which I feel are massive underlying problems with this game and always have been, there isn't much else we can do, in my estimation. I want this game to succeed. I know what would get my old friends to come back to it. There are a lot of them. I also know that NCSoft, or PS or whoever will not do them, and will instead focus on more hideous Incarnate embarrassment, or wedding packs or dance packs or something equally shortsighted. I wish very much that wasn't the case, but it historically is.

Pray continue.

Because "gated behind" does not mean "part of". I honestly don't understand why you're asking the question, because I see zero lack of clarity there.

Let's say that next week the devs came out with something that, in order to access this new feature, you were required to have bought City of Villains or the GvE bundle.

Set aside for a moment that they would never do that now because of the addition of F2P.

Would that new feature be "part" of City of Villains? Or would it be a new feature?

To me, that's almost totally unambiguous. It would not be a "part" of CoV. CoV is a package bundle that came out six years ago. A new feature could not be "part" of it.

I see this as no different, except the time scale is shorter. Not so much shorter, though, that it's obvious that the two things in question (GR and Incarnates) were clearly released together. If they had been, I would be of the other opinion. But they weren't released together, even setting aside that the Alpha slot was supposed to be part of GR. iTrials and the later slots were not.

^this.

I've never really seen what all the fuss is about whether Incarnates were meant as a part of GR because to me it meant the new Praetorian starter zone, new content, and alignment/side switching.

You're really not. I was excited about GR for side switching. Now, I was definitely interested in the Incarnate system, but when I figured/found out that access to the Incarnate system was going to be linked to buying GR, I just figured "bonus, I was going to buy it any way."

Actually, the Dev's have done that regularly over the last 5 years, it was called villain content. And that was absolutely part of CoV.

Additionally, I would consider First Ward part of GR. As this is an MMO items are added which require you to have unlocked access to different parts of the game. Incarnate content required you to have access to GR, as does First Ward.

Since i had my "epiphany" it is. Prior to that, I honestly thought there MIGHT be some merit to claims that pre-purchases MAY have explicitly stated that Incarnates were included. IF they could but show it. But that devolved into a load of horse-pucky and I'm glad I was able to get out of the conversation.

To my current way of thinking, that conversation was, and this one still is completely irrelevant. But other people have the right to their beliefs and to explore/argue them, as they will. Even if I think that they are wasting their energies.

Want another good laugh? There's a thread up in player questions where the OP is angry that the devs are adding stuff to the store faster than he can earn free points to buy it with his subscription. It's so unfair he can't get everything for free as soon as it's released.