Concerns about the new EULA
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-09-11 04:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
In the end, what matters to me is what it says, not whether it's enforceable or not. I will not agree to something that I disagree with on a fundamental level.
That is correct of you.
My point is that the new EULA does not actually say anything new.
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Originally Posted by Westley
In the end, what matters to me is what it says, not whether it's enforceable or not. I will not agree to something that I disagree with on a fundamental level.
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Well, go away then!
Your loss is our gain.
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That isn't really true. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
That is correct of you.
My point is that the new EULA does not actually say anything new. |
City of Heroes User Agreement (official document at NCSoft.com, last amended March 2010).
CITY OF HEROES USER AGREEMENT SEPTEMBER 1, 2011 (as provided in the Freedom Beta client).
If you compare those side-by-side you'll find rather a lot that's new. That's why there's an issue here, even if some people prefer to ignore the issue or put blanket trust in the fact that Zwillinger is a nice guy and therefore the company that pays his salary must be just as nice and trustworthy.
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Beaten to the punch here, I but really don't understand how you can say that.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
My point is that the new EULA does not actually say anything new.
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Before you even posted this, I mentioned specifically that the part about being able to look at any part of your computer's RAM or storage is new.
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For what it's worth, I actually agree with Westley. The EULA is a joke. In fact, all modern EULAs are a joke. Unfortunately, in today's society which is ruled by lawyers, it's a joke we can't get away from.
I continue playing the game not because I think the EULA is a-okay, I don't. However, I do think that if NCsoft were to try to do something evil, I would pretty effectively be able to fight it. And if it's really evil, we could do more damage to their reputation by publicizing it than they could do to us through banning or other legal means.
So we live in this sort of mutually assured destruction scenario. I don't try to screw them over by cheating (can I? yes...), and they don't try to screw me over by taking over my machine (can they? yes...).
At the end of the day, though, I choose not to let my life to be ruined by the lawyers. I know that the management of Paragon Studios has zero interest in doing stuff the EULA claims they can. They just want to make a decent living by making a fun game. Likewise, I just want to play a fun game, so life goes on, ho hum.
I respect people for taking a stand for what they think is wrong in the world. But while I think these EULAs are wrong, I'm just not as passionate about it as others are. Trust me, though, I am passionate about other things that a lot of people are ho hum about, and I feel frustrated when people don't think it's as important as I do. But you know, that's what makes the world go 'round, different people having different priorities.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Bwahahahahahahaha.|
Originally Posted by Cryion
I can understand the whole bot and other exploits concern, however no company or individual can force you to allow them access into your system which from what I've read so far is exactly what the EULA is stating *And yes in print its liable and legally unjust as the law takes printed litigation word for word* This can never be enforced and any and every lawsuit made by NCSoft on these grounds would fail simply due to the Internet Privacy Act which was signed and passed by Former US President Bill Clinton. The privacy act clearly states that no company or individual has the right to enter your computer system without express permission from the system owner. Any attempt to do so without written, signed, and dated consent is a violation of this law. So NCSoft purely putting it into a EULA is unenforceable and may actually result in several litigation's being filed against the company. (Not saying it will but that it could)
The only actual legal way for them to do what they are trying to do is from their end and must be done on the server. I suggest everyone here read up on the Internet Privacy Act you might learn a thing or two. Again I'm not discrediting NCSoft for wanting to stop exploits and other hacks, I am merely stating that they cannot force you to give them access to your system just because you play their game and as I said before any litigation the company might file against a individual would not hold up in any court. |
You may want to read up on it yourself.
It's a hoax.
It's still a hoax.
Yep, still a hoax.
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yeah there's plenty new. One can't seriously argue that.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Beaten to the punch here, I but really don't understand how you can say that.
Before you even posted this, I mentioned specifically that the part about being able to look at any part of your computer's RAM or storage is new. |
Now one could say it doesn't matter. There are no rights when dealing with a private company.
You choose to use their service, you abide by their rules. Not choosing to use their service, don't have to worry about their rules.
it's the same reason there is no freedom of speech on forums, roughly put.
EDIT: That EULA is a joke honestly. There is no way any of that could be enforceable. The ONLY enforceable part is the termination of your account. There's no if ands or buts about that. There is no RIGHT to play COH. They can choose to terminate your account or refuse to give you service, as their right as a private business.
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While these are indeed new words, my point is that I don't beleive they actually confer rights or protections that were not in place before.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Beaten to the punch here, I but really don't understand how you can say that.
Before you even posted this, I mentioned specifically that the part about being able to look at any part of your computer's RAM or storage is new. |
In other words, if they had looked at my RAM/Storage during I20, I would not have any different legal recourse; I could complain, I could uninstall. If I had complained (or indeed whether or not I had complained), they could have banned me.
This has not changed.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Pretty much this. There are soooooo many other REAL WORLD rights being taken away that I'm concerned about that this doesn't even rank in the top 1000.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
For what it's worth, I actually agree with Westley. The EULA is a joke. In fact, all modern EULAs are a joke. Unfortunately, in today's society which is ruled by lawyers, it's a joke we can't get away from.
I continue playing the game not because I think the EULA is a-okay, I don't. However, I do think that if NCsoft were to try to do something evil, I would pretty effectively be able to fight it. And if it's really evil, we could do more damage to their reputation by publicizing it than they could do to us through banning or other legal means. So we live in this sort of mutually assured destruction scenario. I don't try to screw them over by cheating (can I? yes...), and they don't try to screw me over by taking over my machine (can they? yes...). At the end of the day, though, I choose not to let my life to be ruined by the lawyers. I know that the management of Paragon Studios has zero interest in doing stuff the EULA claims they can. They just want to make a decent living by making a fun game. Likewise, I just want to play a fun game, so life goes on, ho hum. I respect people for taking a stand for what they think is wrong in the world. But while I think these EULAs are wrong, I'm just not as passionate about it as others are. Trust me, though, I am passionate about other things that a lot of people are ho hum about, and I feel frustrated when people don't think it's as important as I do. But you know, that's what makes the world go 'round, different people having different priorities. |
What's the worst that could happen? I no longer play COH. Other games out there.
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
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I'm sorry that I cannot be as apathetic about this as you are. This game meant a lot to me, and so it makes me passionate.
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Ohhh I'm passionate about a lot of aspects of this game. This isn't one of them.|
Originally Posted by Westley
I'm sorry that I cannot be as apathetic about this as you are. This game meant a lot to me, and so it makes me passionate.
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I also understand that by posting on this forum and playing their game I give up SOME of what I wouldn't normally give up in the real world. This isn't the real world, this a private service run by a private company. If I really truly objected to that, and here's the kicker, I never would have started playing in the first place!
As has been shown already by the Supreme Court "our rights" works a little differently when dealing with a private entity.
EDIT: There have been times when a service I wanted to try had terms which I felt took more than I could approve of, then I choose NOT to use the service. I'm well within my rights not to use a service I feel is taking more than they should, as well as the service being well within their rights not to serve me for whatever reason, including not agreeing to their terms.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I cannot disagree with this, I am just stating my opposition in the hopes that it might possibly be changed. I WANT to play this game in the future. Defenders getting Fire Blast and the new focus on content rather than new systems/doo-hickeys that I never cared about got me very excited about coming back to the game again.... and then this. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
EDIT: There have been times when a service I wanted to try had terms which I felt took more than I could approve of, then I choose NOT to use the service. I'm well within my rights not to use a service I feel is taking more than they should, as well as the service being well within their rights not to serve me for whatever reason, including not agreeing to their terms.
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My husband and I are living in a flat. The flat does not belong to us, we are renting it. We've both signed a lenghty legal agreement when we first rented it, and let me assure you, I read through the whole thing carefully.|
Originally Posted by Westley
This does seem to be the case, and it makes me sad. People are so easily willing to give up their rights, pretty soon we won't have any left.
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There was, in fact, a provision that the landlord may use his duplicate key to enter the flat at his discretion. I actually asked about that. IIRC the explanation was that in case there's a reason to believe the tennats have abandonned the flat, the landlord can come in and check and not have to wait until the rental agreement has run out.
I didn't demand that the provision be taken out. I don't believe I have signed away any of my rights. I am still legally protected from being stabbed in my sleep or having my stuff taken away, because those are both crimes. I still have to take steps to protect my data, because that's something I should be doing anyway. And, after all, the landlord *owns* this appartment. He has a right to check up on it if he wants to.
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I understand your concerns, and fully defend your right to state them and hope they will be addressed in a way you find satisfactory by empowered red names.
I think that people are looking for the EULA to unequivocally specify "we will never do x, and if we do, you can sue us for all of our money and we won't fight it. Unless we are lying liars."
I just don't see that happening.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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NcSoft does not own my computer. They do not have the right to check on my software or hardware.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
And, after all, the landlord *owns* this appartment. He has a right to check up on it if he wants to.
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It not a hoax it is filed under several names Internet Privacy Act, Data Privacy Act, and Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act. It was signed and passed in 1997. You really need to learn to do research before you claim something is a hoax.
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Originally Posted by baron_inferno
Actually that is a hoax. Clinton never signed such an Act because it didn't exist. Even now the courts are relying on the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 which is obsolete and woefully inadequate when it comes to all forms of communication over the internet.
The U.S. is behind a lot of other developed nations in this respect. |
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But they DO own the service that you're using, and they most certainly DO have the right, both moral and legal, to make sure you're not doing something evil to that service. We might disagree on how far that right extends. The EULA states that it extends pretty far. Practically speaking, it won't ever come to that, it's just lawyers playing the "what if...?" game.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
NcSoft does not own my computer. They do not have the right to check on my software or hardware.
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We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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They do (and indeed must) have the right to say "if you do not have 'this much' RAM or 'this much' storage, you cannot play.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
NcSoft does not own my computer. They do not have the right to check on my software or hardware.
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Beyond that, I agree with you.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I understand precisely what my legal rights are, and moreover precisely what rights I had the first day I loaded this game compared to now, because I actually do in fact read the EULAs of all software I load, if for no other reason than professional interest. For that reason specifically, I recognize that pretty much 99.9% of the worry is hyperbole, insofar as the rights being spelled out by the current EULA are not significant extensions of the original EULA. For example, the notion that they can "monitor" what you say on other boards. *I* can do that, and I don't need you to agree to an EULA to do it. I can do it because your public speech on another board is just that: public. The notion that they could theoretically ban me or terminate my access for something I say on another venue is a right they *always* had: they can terminate me for any reason, or for no reason. They had that right from the start.|
Originally Posted by Westley
This does seem to be the case, and it makes me sad. People are so easily willing to give up their rights, pretty soon we won't have any left.
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As to monitoring my computer, the law has always been vague on how far a company can go in that regard, but randomly snooping on people's computers with or without the EULA is extremely hazardous these days. No good can come from it and public sympathies are not with the companies doing the snooping. So while they could theoretically do such things, it would be bordering on suicidal to do so. I'm not especially worried about it when Apple gets hauled before Congress to explain why the iPhone keeps track of just geographic data.
Having spoken on the subjects of identity theft, personal information protection, and general information protection, I'm as informed about the issue as I think anyone not actually an EULA specialist can be. I'm not suggesting my own evaluation substitute for anyone else's: I think people should make up their own minds on something of this nature. However, I'm also disinclined to accept anyone's pity for not giving the matter more emotional energy.
If the EULA causes people to decide not to play the game, that's entirely their prerogative. However, I presume they are opting out of the entire MMO genre, and all online gaming in general. They all have the rights most people are objecting to here, whether that is explicitly stated in their EULAs or not, to within the limits of local governing laws.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
But they DO own the service that you're using, and they most certainly DO have the right, both moral and legal, to make sure you're not doing something evil to that service. We might disagree on how far that right extends. The EULA states that it extends pretty far. Practically speaking, it won't ever come to that, it's just lawyers playing the "what if...?" game.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
They do (and indeed must) have the right to say "if you do not have 'this much' RAM or 'this much' storage, you cannot play.
Beyond that, I agree with you. |
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Heres a nice link just to prove you wrong ya troll|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Bwahahahahahahaha.
You may want to read up on it yourself. It's a hoax. It's still a hoax. Yep, still a hoax. |
http://www.case.info/jmlsarchive/statutes/dpa.html
and heres another
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.1367:
and another
http://www.netatty.com/privacy/privacy.html
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Oh, gotcha.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
I was replying to a specific post about a specific analogy and why it did not apply. That's all.
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Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[QUOTE=SlickRiptide;3873226]
1) The EULA doesn't say anything about how NCSoft goes about its monitoring. There's nothing to prevent them from intalling a Sony style root-kit or using something that acts like GameGuard or NProtect only worse. Whatever they want to do is okay. [QUOTE]
My understanding (IANAL) is that the Freedom EULA does not impact their rights in this area whatsoever. They are not expressly promising that they will not install a rootkit, nor are they asking for permission to do so.
Of course, they do have the "right" to change their software in any patch however they want. Technically, after Freedom installs we could find ourselves playing in the Marvel Universe, and if we didn't like that, our only recourse would be to uninstall.
Even more to the point, if it were to be discovered tomorrow that a rootkit had in fact been installed way back with Going Rogue, the EULA would have no impact on our legal recourse regarding that fact.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!