Please, devs, protect the authors


Aquila_NA

 

Posted

You flatter me to think I could cause such so much angst amongst such an elite group of players.

lolDetectivework


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twoflower View Post
It's a valid point, and a perspective I hadn't considered. The core problem is a glut of stories to play, combined with an inability to find the ones you want. Skewing the ratings up or down doesn't change that.

That's why I'm thinking an overhaul based on recommendations and users with similar tastes is key. That way, you're led to the arcs you're most likely to enjoy -- not just "The top X arcs visible in the window sorted by rating."

The fact that people CAN knock an arc down several pegs into the land of obscurity is a flaw with a straight rating system and rating sorted display in general. No amount of bias will change that. We need a new approach entirely.

Gonna take time to get that, time to do it right. As long as this is on the devs radar, and they are willing to accept that what we have right now is not working, I'd be satisfied for now.
Absolutely. In the ideal system, a farmer downvoting a story arc and a story arc player downvoting a farm should either have no effect on the ability to find the arc for players that want to play it, or it should actually benefit those players by learning the arcs that people like or don't like, and recommending ones that similar people liked while not recommending ones that similar people didn't like.

Instead of having my front page loaded with arcs ranked a certain way, my front page should load with arcs aimed at my tastes based on my past ratings. I should be able to add authors and players to lists (kind of like how Pandora works), and it should be able to take that extra information into account when recommending arcs to me. The rating system should change to "like" and "dislike", and try to show me arcs it thinks I would like.

If it worked this way, then I'd be all for the ability to rate an arc without finishing it. I do that all the time with songs in Pandora, and it only affects my song listings.

The problem with the current 5 star system is that it only works for finding arcs you want to run if you're in a massive majority of people that like the same kinds of arcs, and 5 stars arcs that they like.

Of course, Wonderslug brings up good reasons why changing it to this kind of system is unlikely to happen.


Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)

 

Posted

Okay, IANAL, but I do know a thing or two about harassment. The most important thing to know about the laws and terms defining harassment is this:

Harassment is not ruled according to intent on the part of the harasser, but according to the impact on those harassed.

What this means is that I can make a simple joke, but it offends someone. I then make another joke, and the same person finds similar offense with it. I'll give an example here:

  1. Farm 'Arcs' in AE are like Carrot Top. They clutter the stage with a bunch of dumb props and the dumbest people in the world laugh because their sole remaining functional synapse is stimulated.
  2. The AE system is like Gallagher. At one point it was a refreshing thing that had never been done before, but now it's a SAD shell of its former self that is barely able to perform what was once the signature portion of its act.
  3. Stories in AE are like music. Everyone has different tastes, but they all agree that rap barely qualifies. AE farms are a lot like rap, just with a certain letter tagged on before it.

Now, it is not my INTENT that these jokes/remarks be harassing in nature...but if anyone does feel that this comes across as harassment, they are free to report it as such, and it will likely be punished as such because harassment is purely in the eye of the beholder.


 

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Quote:
Harassment is not ruled according to intent on the part of the harasser, but according to the impact on those harassed.
If the law supposes this, then the law is a...donkey.


Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

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Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard View Post
Okay, IANAL
You should have stopped there. That was the only part of your post with any merit.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard View Post
Stories in AE are like music. Everyone has different tastes, but they all agree that rap barely qualifies. AE farms are a lot like rap, just with a certain letter tagged on before it.
While something of a tangent, most modern rap may be garbage but a lot of older stuff is solidly done and culturally conscious. In fact, one of my personal biggest frustrations is that some modern stuff has offensive lyrics yet has a beat I like. So...no, not everyone agrees.

/end tangent

edit: Erm, what does IANAL stand for?


 

Posted

I Am Not A Lawyer.


Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

Posted

Personally, I'd love to see it done like YouTube.

Like/Dislike. Bye-bye star ratings.
You can subscribe to authors whose arcs you've enjoyed, receiving gleemail notifications when an author you've subscribed to adds a new arc.
And the UI shows "because you played X, you might like Y".

And the front page should CONSTANTLY be random, with say 2 random DCs listed first, and the remaining 18 (or however many display per page) being random arcs. If people then CHOOSE to sort by "Likes", "Title", or some other search feature, fine. But STRICTLY FOR MYSELF, I am so sick and tired of seeing the same 20 arcs on the front page. Give me raw variety every single time.

As far as anti-griefing measures:

a) you must complete an arc before you can rate it.
b) you cannot PLAY more than 5 (or maybe 10) arcs in a 24-hour period.
c) you cannot RATE more than 5 (or 10) arcs in a 24-hour period.
d) put a cooldown time between arc ratings to minimize the likelihood of griefing.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite


Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
I don't see how anything can be done.
Remove the 1-5 star rating system and change to a "Like" only system, no "Dislike" option.

Require a story to be completed before it can be rated.

Create a category for Farms that allows them all to be grouped together so that people that we can all easily separate stories from farms.


OR

The Devs have in the past said that people should not create farms. If people should not be creating farms they need to start enforcing the rule. This requires an Summer Intern or equivalent to start playing through likely arcs and warning/banning authors.

I am most in favour of the first option.


This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04

 

Posted

I have always found myself griefed far more often by AE Naz-...um, not-so-nicies than by farmers. For instance, I had an arc called "Malpractice, the Undead, and You". I actually still have it, but this was back when I was 'looking for feedback' on it. It got a lot of 1- and 2-star ratings because "Puns are not solid writing" and "Mobs are a little bit spread out on the first map", as if I have a real say in where they spawn on that particular outdoor map. And yes, that particular map had a storyline reason for its use. I just wish I could have added screaming civilians to it running hither and thither, it would have worked better.

I agree with the "Like" option, no "Dislike". I don't agree with the inability to rate an arc before you finish it. Let's face it, some arcs are freaking terrible. You *should* have to complete at least half of it before you can rate it lower than 3 stars.... but the "Like" system would be much more preferable.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychoti View Post
I have always found myself griefed far more often by AE Naz-...um, not-so-nicies than by farmers. For instance, I had an arc called "Malpractice, the Undead, and You". I actually still have it, but this was back when I was 'looking for feedback' on it. It got a lot of 1- and 2-star ratings because "Puns are not solid writing" and "Mobs are a little bit spread out on the first map", as if I have a real say in where they spawn on that particular outdoor map. And yes, that particular map had a storyline reason for its use. I just wish I could have added screaming civilians to it running hither and thither, it would have worked better.
Ah the roving AE ratings cabals from days of yore. Good times. (Only not.)


Ambush City, Or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Ambush - Arc #1043
Strife of the Grave - Arc #3409
Shift - Arc #529411

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture View Post
I Am Not A Lawyer.
Really I thought is was just web speak for "I Anal". Sort of I maybe viewed as an **** but here's my opinion anyway."


 

Posted

I don't think having a system in place that suspends your rating privs if you give too many 1 stars within a certain span of time is a bad idea. If its a tight span and a large number of 1 stars it would obviously be someone downrating on purpose.

That said, any judgment system is open to the whims of those that are able to participate in judgment. The only solution is to remove rankings and instead go by amount played.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite View Post
Personally, I'd love to see it done like YouTube.

Like/Dislike. Bye-bye star ratings.
You can subscribe to authors whose arcs you've enjoyed, receiving gleemail notifications when an author you've subscribed to adds a new arc.
And the UI shows "because you played X, you might like Y".

And the front page should CONSTANTLY be random, with say 2 random DCs listed first, and the remaining 18 (or however many display per page) being random arcs. If people then CHOOSE to sort by "Likes", "Title", or some other search feature, fine. But STRICTLY FOR MYSELF, I am so sick and tired of seeing the same 20 arcs on the front page. Give me raw variety every single time.

As far as anti-griefing measures:

a) you must complete an arc before you can rate it.
b) you cannot PLAY more than 5 (or maybe 10) arcs in a 24-hour period.
c) you cannot RATE more than 5 (or 10) arcs in a 24-hour period.
d) put a cooldown time between arc ratings to minimize the likelihood of griefing.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
What I want is very similar to this.

Exceptions: Likes only, no Dislikes.

No limits on how often you play (MARTy may have nipped that issue in the bud).

Allow me to search and/or organize arcs by who else Liked them, and pull up a list of who Liked a given arc.


Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite View Post
As far as anti-griefing measures:

a) you must complete an arc before you can rate it.
b) you cannot PLAY more than 5 (or maybe 10) arcs in a 24-hour period.
c) you cannot RATE more than 5 (or 10) arcs in a 24-hour period.
d) put a cooldown time between arc ratings to minimize the likelihood of griefing.
Youtube would be better than what we have now, but I'd still like it to work more like Pandora (I know I said this before, but I'm going into more detail). There should not be a public front page. There should only be your front page. When you use it for the first time, it should ask some seed questions (and "do you just want XP, and don't care about story" should be one of them) and build a list from there. On the ratings page (which would just be like/dislike), it should ask if you want to add the author to your list. It should also allow you to add players to lists (something Pandora doesn't do, to my knowledge), so that it can recommend arcs they liked.

You should also be able to create multiple lists, because some people want story arcs some of the time and farms other times. Sometimes people are in the mood for drama, and sometimes people are in the mood for comedy. Sometimes people are in the mood for classic superhero stories, and sometimes people are in the mood for the unusual.

Anyway, the reason I'm responding to you and quoting that portion of your post is this: if it was designed this way, there would be no need for anti-griefing measures, and people could dislike arcs they immediately know they don't like without having to complete it to get it off their list. It wouldn't be griefing at all-- it would be setting a preference list, and it wouldn't affect the author in any way (unless they want people that hate their arcs to be forced to play them for some bizarre reason).

I also think they should abolish ticket rewards for authors, by the way. That just encourages people who would otherwise not care for writing arcs to flood the system with junk.


Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Gerbil View Post
Ah the roving AE ratings cabals from days of yore. Good times. (Only not.)
Dev didn't protect the AE then. They won't now. What about all those people who do nothing but 1 star farms to get them off the front page? What about those authors and the story they want to tell about how to level quickly? Trash or Treasure is not for the devs to decide. I say bring back the Comm officers and charge $10 for an AE permit. That should bring in the $$$$ from the Free2Play folks.


"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twoflower View Post
I was asked about this in beta chat today. I've got eight arcs out there including several DCs, so if anybody's getting piles of feedback to contribute as datapoints for this, it's me.

I rarely see "Somebody has rated your arc," which indicates a low star rating. (Not trying to brag, honestly, just pointing out I haven't seen a rash of one-stars.) In terms of feedback, I haven't seen a single "Bad XP" or "not a good farm" note.

The most common negative note I see is "too difficult," particularly on the Laser Moonbase which is, well, difficult since I didn't set the minimum level high enough to reasonably take on custom enemies. I guess that could mean "unrewarding" since repeated deaths cleave into rewards like an axe, or at least seem to.

Are other authors seeing a rash of 1-stars and negative reviews? Is this an actual problem out there?
I think DCs have a sort of immunity to the 1-starring (which, if the problem is ongoing as of now, means that a lot of tools will now attempt to 1-star my DC arc. Because some people are just jerks ... )

I don't know if that's because people tend to go for the arcs that aren't recognised by the Devs but have been created by people on the forums who have a counter argument to lolfarming. Personally, I think that's the case.

Anyway, might as well put this suggestion in again - make the 'rating' system into a 'Like' (with absolutely NO 'Dislike' button) and remove any arcs from the initial search screen, allowing folks to genuinely search for things.

Oh and segregate arcs into categories please.

I figure if repeated requests for something eventually work (for things like power customisation - not like we're asking for vehicles is it?) in some cases, may as well roll out the horse corpse and start flogging away.


 

Posted

Wow I had no idea about that, that's really awful. I have never experienced it, but it's just ridiculous that you can be one-starred for not producing enough xp or simply for no reason at all. Farmers are one of those things you have to live with, but that they believe they are actually in the right by farming is a notion I can't understand. Mission Architect was not created with the purpose of allowing players to create farms. But I digress.

You should be unable to rate an arc you cannot complete. The weighting system for ratings should be altered so lone one-stars amid several 4 and 5 stars can't have such a negative impact.

There should be no front page of arcs, people should have to search.

I'm not sure what the "Like" system would achieve. If you had that you might as well not have a rating system at all. Ratings are present for two reasons, one so writers can get a sense of how good their arc is, and two, so people can find more highly prized arcs. With this system, an author would find it difficult to work out whether someone thought his arc was good or not, especially if they couldn't even put Dislike, so he wouldn't know he needed to improve it. People searching for better arcs would unequivocally fail, because the number of likes would be massively associated with the number of plays. And Farms get the most plays.

If you were to institute the "Like" system, don't have a rating system at all.



Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.

 

Posted

One issue with the current rating system is that we get a vague, "You're near this whole number" tally. Allowing an author to see an actual breakdown of star ratings would give that author a better indication of where folks really stand. For instance, after the latest round of one-star smashings from a couple of weeks back, all of my arcs say that they're at four stars. But which ones are REALLY liked best by my audience and by how much? I have no real clue as-is.

Such a view would also help us, the authors, better identify precisely when we get one-star slammed, and it would give us some ammunition to tell support, "Look, this arc has fifty five-star rates, twenty four-star rates, three three-star rates, no two-star rates, and ten one-star rates that have all appeared in the last week. What gives?"


I'm out of signature space! Arcs by Tubbius of Justice are HERE: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=218177

 

Posted

I am in favor of abolishing ratings in favor of a "Like Only" system.

The idea being, when someone Likes your arc, they are added to a cross-indexed database system that allows you to:

- Contact people who liked your arc to get more info on what they liked/disliked.
- Find out who else liked an arc you liked.
- Find out what other arcs that person liked.
- Add/organize those who liked your arcs in categories: "Likes anime" "Likes mystery" "Likes xp"

This would allow you to improve your arcs by increasing the aspects that are liked as well as contact people for advise.

You would also be able to find arcs you will like by creating lists of people with similar tastes, and hunting down arcs they like.

If there must be a ratings system, I'd rather it be something like:

0 stars: I did not like this arc enough to recommend anyone play it.
1 star: I liked this arc, but it needs a lot of improvement.
2 stars: I liked this arc a lot; not perfect but great.
3 stars: I liked this arc so much I can't think of how it can be improved.


Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

Posted

I will mention as another data point, that I do occasionally see "someone has rated Ctrl + Alt + Reset" while I'm on, I would say that it's only once or twice a week if that, but I do see it. Heck, when I sort through my saved comments on occasion, I'll even see that people have reported the arc for content violations. That's even rarer though, maybe once every couple months and I don't even get a notification on them, they just show up if I click on the "see comments" button on the arc.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard View Post
Stories in AE are like music. Everyone has different tastes, but they all agree that rap barely qualifies.
You spoke to everyone? Whoah.

Stop posting.


 

Posted

This weekend saw the release of Real Steel and The Ides of March in theaters here in the US.

The Ideas of March has already garnered some critical acclaim for the story and acting. Real Steel is about a motherfarking robot battles with robot limbs being torn asunder and used as melee weapons to beat down the giant robots.

Guess which one will win the box office totals for the weekend?

There is a segment of the population that wants stories, desires stories and decries anything that isn't a good story. This is a minority. This thread even goes so far as to proclaim it a "protected class" minority.

Sorry folks....stories don't bring in the money. Some money, sure, but not as much as giant robots wailing away on one another.

Farms pay to keep the lights on around here. For the storytellers. You owe them a debt of gratitude and thanks.