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Except, without GR you can't access it.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Uhm the Incarnate System was Issue 19 which was released on November 30, 2010. Three months after Going Rogue went live on August 17, 2010.
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With Freedom, if you bought GR, and are going Premium you can't access it. Despite having bough GR for access to it.
There really is a double standard there.
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Somewhat. And?
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Originally Posted by Diggis
Except, without GR you can't access it.
With Freedom, if you bought GR, and are going Premium you can't access it. Despite having bough GR for access to it. There really is a double standard there. |
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The only problem is he doesn't have any legitimate concerns.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Guys? Seriously...
I'm gonna quote this since everyone seems to have glossed over it with their bigoted ideas of what it 'should' say. Now, I have no problem jumping all over the 'Ragequitters' as I have before. Theres the door and all that jazz. You know what though? This isn't ragequitting... This isn't even 'whining' This is a problem, plain and simple. You don't have to agree with it, you just have to accept it. This poster, played for a bit years ago and then left for unstated reasons. They heard about Freedom and wanted to come back, bringing a handful of friends (or hyperbole) with them! Once they came back they remembered the fun, they got their friends hooked and were all excited about pumping money into the store for 'goodies' ala most F2P. They then found out about the tier structure, realized they'd end up spending all their 'Goodies' money on features of the game, thus leaving them unable to buy the extras... The extra's that attracted them back to start with and decided to cut their losses ahead of time. Then they come here and calmly spell out why, in a thread asking for feedback on this issue. Do we offer up alternatives? Do we inform them about how simple and cheap it is to get the features they'd be missing? No, we kick them in the teeth and say good day. /Facepalm. NOW. That said, let me point out the real problem here. Perception. However wrong Fetus was is irrelevant, the fact is he brings to light a serious issue. Perception could very well kill this whole endeavor before it even has a chance. Look, this was a returning player, the very kind that Freedom is designed to appeal to. Get them back with the lure of F2P and then they'll be rehooked and subbing. That is the desired goal. Focusing on Subs will be the mandate, I have no doubt. That also means PS is wanting to convert as many premiums into ViP's as possible. In fact, this has to happen. Sadly, perception could very well stall the whole effort. It doesn't matter what Paragon Studio's calls it, it doesn't matter that we have a mountain of evidence that this is NOT F2P. All that matters is the returning premiums, the new players coming on for free... They all have the misconception of what F2P means. Since every single outlet that covers this is going to brand it as F2P and not hybrid, they will come in droves, wallet in hand to buy some bling. When they quickly realize they'll be spending all their cash on missing features instead of bling, it's bye bye birdie. Why should you care? You're here aren't you? If Freedom fails it's very possibly game over within 2 years. Freedom needs to generate more $ than we are currently getting through Subs. The hope is to achieve this by converting Prems into Vip's and Freebers into Prem's. I'm not advocating for a change, I'm not saying Fetus was right. I'm saying we need to 'open our eyes' and stop jumping down every negative post like it's the 2nd coming of Twixt and realize that maybe, just maybe, they have a legitimate concern. |
1. He and his friends don't NEED to buy anything to play the basic game. He's mad because he doesn't WANT to play the basic game, he WANTS to play the enhanced game but he doesn't WANT to pay for it.
2. NCSoft always said the game is a hybrid model. It is not their fault that sources outside their control are giving people the wrong idea.
3. The details of the new hybrid payment model were released on June 21st. Several weeks before Heroic bought his copy of CoH on sale for $1.99. He had plenty of time to read up on the details of Freedom and make an informed decision that he wasn't going to like it before he spent a dime.
4. Ah yes the Dooooom!. We've been getting those predictions going on 8 years now. Considering that NCSoft has a rep for simply axing games that aren't profitable (Dungeon Runners, Tabula Rossa, Exsteel for examples) I'm not going to put much faith in any negative forecasts about the future of this game when they are still pumping money into it's development. That tells me NCSoft still feels this game is still profitable.
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Yeah some double standard. Players were much better off when they cancelled their subs and lost all access to the servers. NCSoft is a bunch of jerks. Where do they get off thinking people should still get limited access for free. |
Originally Posted by Diggis
Except, without GR you can't access it.
With Freedom, if you bought GR, and are going Premium you can't access it. Despite having bough GR for access to it. There really is a double standard there. |
You know if you could bottle the GeekRage in this thread you could power most 3rd world countries for the next thousand (or so) years.
In essence:
From i21 launch (after the head start). The game will come in two flavours.
City of Heroes Freedom and City of Heroes VIP
Frees and Premiums will be restricted to City of Heroes Freedom while VIPs will get the VIP game. They will share servers.
End of story.
If you think that the restrictions are wrong, the suggestions forums is this way. Or you know vote with your feet and leave the game.
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Personally I'd prefer that the Frees and Prems wait until after I21 launches to make their complaints on the forums. |
Originally Posted by Lost Ninja
If you think that the restrictions are wrong, the suggestions forums is this way. Or you know vote with your feet and leave the game.
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Yes, some of the hybrid payment model details were released on June 21st. But to be fair, not all of the details were released. Paragon Studios alluded to the Premium Tier Perks, but the full extent on how they would impact returning players (including the subscription time commitments required to unlock key components of the game) were not fully known to the general public until open beta.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
3. The details of the new hybrid payment model were released on June 21st. Several weeks before Heroic bought his copy of CoH on sale for $1.99. He had plenty of time to read up on the details of Freedom and make an informed decision that he wasn't going to like it before he spent a dime.
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What Paragon Studios marketed on June 21st was a three tier account system. What returning players are greeted with upon return is, in essence, a 9 tier account system, with 7 of those tiers hidden in the Premium level due to the Premium Tier Perks.
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But -- but -- but it said on the BOX I BOUGHT* that I would have to PAY A SUBSCRIPTION to play. They SAID IT RIGHT THERE ON THE BOX**!!! HOW DARE THEY CHANGE IT LIKE THIS!?!!??!!!???|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yeah some double standard. Players were much better off when they cancelled their subs and lost all access to the servers. NCSoft is a bunch of jerks. Where do they get off thinking people should still get limited access for free.
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* From e-bay, for £2.50 inc p&p.
** Which also said that game experience may change during on-line play, but WHATEVER.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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Look, I'm not against Freedom, but they said users wouldn't lose access to anything they paid for. And, in buying Going Rogue, you paid for access to the Incarnate system. Can you honestly say that's not a little bit rich?|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yeah some double standard. Players were much better off when they cancelled their subs and lost all access to the servers. NCSoft is a bunch of jerks. Where do they get off thinking people should still get limited access for free.
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How would you feel if you bought the cyborg pack, but if you dropped to premium you lost access to it?
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Well I am willing to bet that after Freedom launches we will get less complaints from the Free players here on the forums than we do now.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Personally I'd prefer that the Frees and Prems wait until after I21 launches to make their complaints on the forums.
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Originally Posted by Diggis
Look, I'm not against Freedom, but they said users wouldn't lose access to anything they paid for. And, in buying Going Rogue, you paid for access to the Incarnate system. Can you honestly say that's not a little bit rich?
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And when they said that people would not lose access to anything they paid for, they meant exactly that. The Incarnate system was a free issue, not part of any paid expansion. The only thing you paid to get it was your subscription fee, which at the time was necessary for the game. For obvious reasons, that doesn't count toward paying for it.
On a personal note, I bought GR for the zones, the costumes, the alignment system, and the new playing opportunities. I didn't even know about the Incarnate system at the time.
Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Nope. Players that used to cancel their subs didn't get any access at all to the game. |
Originally Posted by Diggis
Look, I'm not against Freedom, but they said users wouldn't lose access to anything they paid for. And, in buying Going Rogue, you paid for access to the Incarnate system. Can you honestly say that's not a little bit rich?
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| How would you feel if you bought the cyborg pack, but if you dropped to premium you lost access to it? |
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No anyone who claims that purchasing Going Rogue purchased incarnates is wrong. They where not part of the package when Going Rogue released. Thus they were not purchased with it. |
Originally Posted by Diggis
Look, I'm not against Freedom, but they said users wouldn't lose access to anything they paid for. And, in buying Going Rogue, you paid for access to the Incarnate system. Can you honestly say that's not a little bit rich?
How would you feel if you bought the cyborg pack, but if you dropped to premium you lost access to it? |
What was done was to use Going Rogue as a gateway for incarnates when they did release an issue later. Exactly like purchasing City of Villains unlocked bases for City of Heroes. And then a year or so later they merged the two together. This is the same and anyone trying to claim that they had THE RIGHT TO incarnates is just being a fool and fighting a lost battle.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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City of Heroes: Going Rogue - Incarnates Overview|
Originally Posted by Justice Blues
Except that the Incarnate system wasn't in Going Rogue. You will find nothing on the box or the inside saying that it is part of Going Rogue. You won't even find anything on the website saying it is part of Going Rogue.
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Originally Posted by Justice Blues
You will find they were trying to put a sneak peek at the Incarnate System in the expansion, but took it out at the request of the Beta testers. So while Going Rogue is required to use the Incarnate system at this point, the system is not and never was part of Going Rogue...The Incarnate system was a free issue, not part of any paid expansion.
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Not that I'm arguing for Premium players to get access to the Incarnate System...I totally understand why Paragon Studios is making it VIP only and can support them tying this type of new content to subscriptions. But I also can totally understand the argument that those Premium players who purchased Going Rogue should have access to Incarnates.
Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be allowing those Premium players who purchased Going Rogue to have access to the Alpha Slot (which was released as part of Going Rogue)? Give them a taste to entice them to buy more?
Yay! More assuming the Premium status was meant to be a substitute for a Lifetime subscription. Nope.
Just looked over my Going Rogue box. Nope, no Incarnate info. Sorry, just because you need Going Rogue to utilize the Incarnate System does not mean it is part of the expansion.
Again, Premium was never meant to be a substitue for your subscription.
((Manoa snuck one in ahead of me. This was being typed as she posted.))
Edit: Good idea Manoa, but I would amend it to mean they can run the weekly Task/Strike Forces and get Shards only. No, absolutely, no access to iTrials.
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Exactly. Basically through today and ending tomorrow you must have purchased the latest expansion to utilize the newer features in issues released after it. This was to encourage people to go back and buy the last expansion and is somewhat of an industry standard. This doesn't mean that the last expansion itself had the features in it. |
Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose
Again, Premium was never meant to be a substitue for your subscription. |
Additionally as of tomorrow they are effectively rolling all of the expansions into the basic subscription. This means that everyone starting as a subscriber following 9/13/2011 will start even without having to go back and buy previous expansions. Now anyone who has purchased those expansions will have some advantage if the drop to premium in that they will retain a fair amount of the features but not incarnates since they where never specifically part of any expansion.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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Incarnates were advertised as part of Going Rogue, they removed them after the original design of the Alpha slot proved to be rubbish|
Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose
Yay! More assuming the Premium status was meant to be a substitute for a Lifetime subscription. Nope.
Just looked over my Going Rogue box. Nope, no Incarnate info. Sorry, just because you need Going Rogue to utilize the Incarnate System does not mean it is part of the expansion. Again, Premium was never meant to be a substitue for your subscription. ((Manoa snuck one in ahead of me. This was being typed as she posted.)) Edit: Good idea Manoa, but I would amend it to mean they can run the weekly Task/Strike Forces and get Shards only. No, absolutely, no access to iTrials. |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=229365
The fact that they are currently linked to the purchase of GR clearly shows that they are a part of GR
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And because they were not released with GR they are not part of it.|
Originally Posted by Death_Badger
Incarnates were advertised as part of Going Rogue, they removed them after the original design of the Alpha slot proved to be rubbish
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=229365 The fact that they are currently linked to the purchase of GR clearly shows that they are a part of GR |
MMO's which use expansions regularly use the expansion as a gateway on newer content that is released after the expansion. Ie you must have the expansion to use the content but the content is not part of the expansion.
Sorry this entire battle is a lost cause and good riddence it should not be something that Premium ever has access to.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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Only the Alpha slot was meant to be in GR - but because the first Incarnate content wasn't going to be released until I19, plus the feedback the devs got from the GR beta testers asking for more lore atatched to the slot, they decided to push it back to I19.
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Originally Posted by Manoa
As I recall from Beta, the Judgement, Interface, Lore and Destiny slots of the incarnate system were intended to be released with Going Rogue; however, they weren't ready before Going Rogue's release. As to not release something that wasn't ready, the developers released Going Rogue with just the Alpha Slot and postponed release of the remaining slots until Issue 20.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Oh no the Alpha slot was nothing to do with Going Rogue|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
And because they were not released with GR they are not part of it.
MMO's which use expansions regularly use the expansion as a gateway on newer content that is released after the expansion. Ie you must have the expansion to use the content but the content is not part of the expansion. Sorry this entire battle is a lost cause and good riddence it should not be something that Premium ever has access to. |
http://goingrogue.cityofheroes.com/e...lpha-slot.html
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Then you've somehow managed to be somehow involved in this subject without reading any of the literally hundreds of posts I've made about it in a significant fraction of every thread about it. What I've said repeatedly, and since day one of the announcement, is specifically what are model actually is, and therefore what its actual objectives are, and specifically why comparisons to other models have to be made extremely carefully and without making unwarranted extrapolations due to terminology. Many posters, you included, seem to be making the logical leap that says this game has a mode of play that doesn't require paying, therefore its a free to play game, therefore it should have all the trappings of a free to play game. CommunistPenguin seems absolutely in love with this logical sequence. Its unfortunately false. Or rather, for most of the players of this game, its fortunately false.
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Originally Posted by Manoa
What I've been seeing from those defending the current model is this:
Poster 2 essentially shuts down the second they see the term F2P without even bothering to see what game Poster 1 is talking about (and doesn't even bother checking to see if the game mentioned qualifies as "hybrid" per their strict definition of F2P). The only time I saw someone actually recognize that these F2P MMOs are actually hybrid models too, it was fanwanked away by saying "well, this game is MORE F2P than hybrid though"...making it sound like COH is the only true hybrid model out there and what those other guys are doing doesn't even matter because they aren't really the competition. Which is a notion I respectfully disagree with. |
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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LOTRO and DDO are branded in the exact same way, and have almost the exact same mechanics in place with regard to gating content behind $$ - except they gate MORE content - and having an item shop in place to nickle and dime both subscribers and non-subs with a bunch of gotta-have-its.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
They all have the misconception of what F2P means. Since every single outlet that covers this is going to brand it as F2P and not hybrid, they will come in droves, wallet in hand to buy some bling. When they quickly realize they'll be spending all their cash on missing features instead of bling, it's bye bye birdie.
Why should you care? You're here aren't you? If Freedom fails it's very possibly game over within 2 years. Freedom needs to generate more $ than we are currently getting through Subs. The hope is to achieve this by converting Prems into Vip's and Freebers into Prem's. |
Freedom's NOT going to fail because people are like "Oh my god, an endless free trial with an item shop and a sub that lets me have everything - that's not like any of the F2P games marketing right now!!!"
Seriously, I'm tired of that argument. Freedom's hybrid structure is EXACTLY like the two biggest success F2Ps on the market right now. Anyone who wants to act shocked about it is a poor actor and should be laughed off the stage.
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You always needed to subscribe to access the incarnate system.
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Originally Posted by Diggis
Except, without GR you can't access it.
With Freedom, if you bought GR, and are going Premium you can't access it. Despite having bough GR for access to it. There really is a double standard there. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Except that LOTRO and DDO both let you earn the points to buy stuff in the shop while playing the game. |
Originally Posted by Feycat
LOTRO and DDO are branded in the exact same way, and have almost the exact same mechanics in place with regard to gating content behind $$ - except they gate MORE content - and having an item shop in place to nickle and dime both subscribers and non-subs with a bunch of gotta-have-its.
Freedom's NOT going to fail because people are like "Oh my god, an endless free trial with an item shop and a sub that lets me have everything - that's not like any of the F2P games marketing right now!!!" Seriously, I'm tired of that argument. Freedom's hybrid structure is EXACTLY like the two biggest success F2Ps on the market right now. Anyone who wants to act shocked about it is a poor actor and should be laughed off the stage. |
And neither LOTRO or DDO is the biggest success F2P at the minute. In fact they are nowhere near the top of the list. Maple Story has in excess of 95 million accounts.
I just find it amusing that Incarnate access is part of GR when it suits the Devs. Post Freedom, it is no longer considered part of GR, as if it were then surely non subscribers who had bought GR would have access.