Should villains be glamorous or disgusting?

We seem to be having this argument a lot recently, but it seems to me that the core question at the bottom of it gets overlooked in favour of arguing whatever the most current example is. I thought it was prudent that we should address this question on its own, outside of any specific context.

So how do YOU feel? Should villains be disgusting or should they be glamorous? Here's what I mean:

"Disgusting" villains are pretty much what Golden Girl would tell you all villains are. It's villains written in such a way that we end up hating our own characters. Everything is depraved, everything is uncomfortable, everything is sad and depressing, the world is bleak, crime doesn't pay but instead only gives a hollow sense of victory that helps us sleep at night and forget about the pain and darkness inside our hearts. It's the writing approach towards villainy that makes us feel bad for playing them. For years people have been asking for villains to be "more villainous" and inferred that this meant that villains should be nastier and more revolting.

The upside to this approach to villainy is that it's fairly realistic. Villains are not good people pretty much by definition, and we want to live in a world where good always triumphs and evil always loses, and even when it wins, it's only a Pyrrhic victory. The downside to this is that it makes the whole game very unpleasant to play for long periods of time, and actually even depressing at times.

By contrast, "glamorous" villains are generally a good thing. These are villains who, while unpleasant, are much more famous for being cool. These are the villains who don't focus on ruining lives and instead focus on doing amazing things, on overcoming great odds, on breaking new ground and generally on being cool. They have cool lairs, they have sexy minions, they have stylish outfits and they have this unerring knack for accomplishing what everyone would consider impossible. These are the kind of villains that, while most wouldn't admit it, people kind of sort of want to be.

The upside to this approach is that it makes the game much easier to play and much more pleasant besides. After all, we want to play games to have fun and not torture ourselves, right? The downside to it, though, is that I suspect not everyone would see robbing banks, building death rays and having volcano island lairs is villainous enough if you're not feeling the visceral revulsion at your villain.

Now, for the sake of honesty, I will admit that I'm not exactly objective on the topic. Personally, I prefer glamorous villains every time, simply because disgusting villains are difficult for me to play for any stretch of time. But this isn't about me. I want to hear what you guys think.

*edit*
Let me rephrase the question:

What kind of villains do you prefer to play as, what kind of villains do you prefer to watch movies and read comics about and why?

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I would prefer my villains to be glamorous. I have to play them after all.

Both. Just like reality, frankly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Some should be glamorous. Some should be disgusting. Some should be misguided. Some should be mad. Some should be filthy gorgeous. Some should be doing the wrong things for the right reason. Some should be loyal to Arachnos. Some should be disloyal to Arachnos. Some should be loyal to only themselves, or a small band of others. Some should act on behalf of a higher calling. Some should act on behalf of ascending to that higher calling.

There's no, or shouldn't be, one path of villainy.

For me, it depends on my mood at the time, and the nature of the story I'm writing. Sometimes I go with the guy who's interested in gaining power above all else, and doesn't much care who he tramples to get there. Sometimes I go for the manipulative type who turns the heroes against each other. Sometimes I run with the zealot who's gone too far. And quite fankly, sometimes I do play the one who does stuff because he's a sadistic monster who likes seeing the world burn.

And no, I don't lose any sleep over any of that. It's just a story. (And GG is delusional.)

I think some of both. I'm not sure those are the two endpoints I would set as defining the villainy spectrum, but going with your terms I would say mostly glamorous with enough disgusting to make it believable.

Not everything has to be either one though. Take for example the relatively new arc that has you taking over a cloning facility. I guess you could say that's on the glamorous end of things, but I'd say it's neither. It is a great arc though because it has you acting on your own initiative to seek power. The first time I played that arc I gained new hope that we could get real quality villain content in this game.

I'm glad we have Themari and Phipps in the game. I think we could use some more like that, but I wouldn't want all villain content to be like that. To me it should be just enough that I get an occasional reminder that I'm a real villain and not a reskinned hero.

Neither, if I'm being honest. All my villains have individual motives for why they do what they do but none could be seen as glamourous or disgusting.

My villainous Blaster only kills when he has to, stealthing past all the minions as they are beneath him and he wouldn't even bother, dispatching the boss to achieve stated goals. In his particular case, it's acquiring as much Coral as possible to further augment his powers and allow him to return home and destroy the entire Powers Division.

My Necro/Dark MM on the other hand, is more a malicious villain. Suppose on some level he could be considered disgusting. He was a dark magician in Victorian times that was killed. He became trapped in the underworld and there he used his magic to trap demons within himself. Once he was strong enough he broke free and returned to the world of the living. Using dark magic to bring back his gang to assist in his goal. Gaining enough magic via artifacts or spells or anything. Killing is beneath him as well, choosing to let his minions do the dirty work. His MO is to plot the eventual release of Rularuu, as only then would he achieve freedom from all existence.

I create a basic concept and look/name but then I allow the time played to shape the character. As I'm a hero at heart, I've found playing truly disgusting villains to be not that easy to get into. So most of mine have taken a more middle ground approach.

As for the tutorial and the brewha over that...

For me, the text and various things ingame are very flexible. It's easy to feel like your nothing but a lackey to Arachno's if you go strictly by the dialogue. It's also very simple to read what you want to into it. If a contact was talking down to my near god like villain, I'd just alter it in my head to make sense.
I'm letting them 'think' they are in control, to make it easier to stab them later. OR You may have info I need but I won't hesitate taking it by force if you don't cooperate so spill, kinda internal dialogue. Helps to flesh out the characters story if you aren't so rigidly held to what's presented in text.

Both, really.

I can't pick just one cliche to make all my villains, it really depends entirely on the character.

Some of my villains are glamorous swashbuckler types, some of them are just depraved killers. The story I come up with for them determines whatkind of villain they are, and it varies from character to character. There's no overall "type" of villain I prefer to play as, since my characters cover pretty much every villain type there is.

I'd say the answer, for me, comes down to the same spectrum we have in-game; Vigilante, Rogue and Villain.

Rogue's certainly strike me as 'Glamorous' villains. They get the girls, the gold, the guns and ammo. They have the small but dedicated cadre of goons that work with the inverse law of Ninjitsu; there's less of them, but they do a much better job.

Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist is a good example. Although he does kinda-sorta fit into the 'bad Good guy' camp, certainly later on. A 'Sympathetic Villain' if you will.



I think....hmn. In a way I think a healthy(?) mix of the two is actually most preferable. If a Villain is *only* disgusting, you lose all investment in the story, in the character. Even in reality, which has it's fair share, 'the bad guys' (such an Americanism >_>) always do what they do for a reason.

I think real Disgusting Villains fall into the mentally ill/disturbed/broken bracket, people who simply don't get society or people and want to tear it apart. People like Zsasz from Batman, and possibly Scarecrow. Even then, that 'broken' side of them makes for a kind of connection, because there is an inherent understanding that part of them is wrong, not working how it should.

Glamorous is perhaps the wrong word for it; Stylish? Or maybe 'Purposeful Villains'. Out for greed, out for vengeance, out because of fear; all human reasons that make a character more understandable, more interesting. Villains like Doc Doom and Mangneto are great examples; they've often ceased fighting to turn on a common enemy, or have the limits that even they won't cross (If I remember right I think Doom helped deliver Sue's child didn't he?)

So, rambling aside;
Villains with a purpose are interesting. 'Glamour' if you want to call it that, a goal, a personality and their own dreams, hopes and fears, however 'against the law' they may be. They are the characters I like to see. Sure, some of them can be pretty nasty. Some of them can be just as nasty, if not more so, than Disgusting characters.

'Disgusting' characters, as you mentioned, tend to just be dull, boring and depressing. They are almost a purpose-built...hm...not Mary Sue, but something that only exists to make people feel good 'Because I beat up the big bad villain yay!'

A real villain should be one that, even after you beat them, you are left wondering if you really, really did the right thing. Were they, just maybe...kind of right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I like my villains to be good to look at and play,as far as behavior then its a case of I,m a villain,so I,m going to rob, steal, beat up,kill ,and con as needs must.I have my heroes to be MR Nice Guy.My villain,s will always take the route of villainy to attain their goals.

I think a good study is Wrath from Fullmetal Alchemist. The guy is basically a fusion of human and an incredibly powerful alchemical object. He was designed for the on purpose of control of a country and aiding the overall big-bads in their schemes. And, in combat, he is a one-man army with no mercy, no compassion and horrendous power.

And yet, despite being undeniably bad, he is STILL a relatable character. Everything in his life is basically a façade for the end goal...expect for his wife. She's human, and knows nothing about who he really is, and yet he picked her and no other for their first encounter (Which was effectively her slapping him across the face for being rude)

He lives up to his name, and holds humans in contempt, and yet there are enough 'human' elements to him, such as him embracing final combat with another 'nameless man' as his final, fitting swan-song; his actual care for his wife; and the fact he is an aspect of such quintessential human-ness...that make him a relatable character.

I have to say, Wrath along with Greed are two of my favourites from FMA. Envy is another good one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

'Disgusting' villains are easier to deal with, since they come built in with negative connotations.

'Glamourous' villains are more insidious, playing on positive qualities yet performing evil. The dissonance can allow them to get away with more and leaves our guard down against them.

The same goes for heroes. The Acne Avenger is much harder to appreciate despite a heart of gold, while Captain Sparkles gets all the good press no matter how incompetent he is.

I think this is an interesting, and crucial topic. Crucial, because this sort of information should inform the creation of villain-side story arcs, and ideally, would offer players more opportunities to play the villains they want to play.

Personally, I can't bring myself to play a thoroughly despicable character. Every villain I play has a core distortion, an unbalanced point of view, that privileges a particular form of antisocial behaviour. One, simply, is mad and has no appreciation for the long term results of actions. Another has an unreasonable and abiding hatred of spandex-clad superheroes after a terrible, formative experience, and has so much invested in that hate that seeing reason on this is practically impossible. A third lacks self confidence to the degree that she has followed and continues to follow particularly poor role models and leaders.

Without these flaws, they would be normal, or even good, people. In their own minds, their actions are perfectly justified. But each in their particular way, is not sane.

My main villain feels that he's a misunderstood genius that's been pushed to the fringes of society by lesser minds. To him, he's the protagonist of his stories, but the reality is that he takes the easy way all of the time.

I have another villain who is an amoral assassin-for-hire.

I have another who was a victim of dark forces as a teenager who has been scarred ever since, ended up on the wrong end of the law, but is slowly trying to gain redemption.

I have another who is a serial killer, a psychopath who murdered most of his own family -- but is unfailingly polite and even charming.

I have another who is a former hero who took the Clockwork King for granted and had her psyche stripped from her body and placed into a prototype Clockwork body. This process has made her pretty much completely insane.

I could go on. How do I want to play them? Preferably, I'd have as many options as possible.