Should villains be glamorous or disgusting?

Hmm..

Sometimes , they just want to watch it all burn.

For me, the most enjoyable villains are the ones you can still find "cool" in spite of, or perhaps even because of, their flaws. There needs to be something relatable, something that can make you at least *understand* why they do what they do, even if you don't agree with it.

The commonality I've noticed in my own roster of villains is that they've all been thwarted by life in some way. Trying to claw their way back from ruin, they make the decision to take back control of their own fates, and neither circumstances nor society's rules will stop them.

That doesn't mean that they have no moral or ethical code of their own, just that it varies individually and doesn't fit society's mandate. I hate it when villains are portrayed as having no boundaries at all, just because they're villains. It might make sense for a few rare individuals - psychotics, schizophrenics and complete nihilists with antisocial personality disorders. But most people, good or bad, have things they'll do and things they won't do; it's just that the two lists don't always match up.

Rorschach is a perfect example of a complex character who's so well-written that often people can't agree whether he's a hero or a villain. He works for the common good, but he's also ruthless and brutal. He refuses to follow society's laws, but has his own unwavering moral code. He kills viciously, but only as punishment for the victim's past crimes; he doesn't target innocent civilians. You actually feel *bad* for him at the end of the book/movie.

When you can feel that kind of sympathy for an otherwise unpleasant character, the writer has succeeded.

First, great topic. Allow me to jump into the fray if you will.


Next I want to point out something that I may have skimmed over but I didn't see stated: a hero or villain is not based on a black/white definition but more of a perspective one. A person can be seen as a hero for one action by one society but viewed as a villain by another society.

For example someone who runs a Nazi-hunting organization could easily be viewed as a hero. Hamfat - that's Captain America's bit. However if someone looks at this person who runs a Nazi-hunting group...but expands it to hunting down criminals for a price (and will do most anything other than an assasination) they may be viewed as a villain simply because they use leathal methods or they prefer to be paid for the work they do.

My primary is based on this actually. After a falling out with her family back in Europe - including the leagal rights to her corporation that began as a group of Nazi-hunters founded by her father - she went to the Rogue Isles. She's set up shop to secure funds for a legal battle to regain her company while retaining the original concepts: guns for hire with a predication toward the Council (derived from Nazi/5th column/etc.) as she'll take Council assignments for free.

She comes across as glamorous for the most part, but everyone will have his/her own view of her actions. She personally cares little for the view of others.

Ultimately, I think the disgusting/glamourous question has to be more a matter of a spectrum than of two discrete points. Where a character falls on that spectrum then varies by the story being told. For instance, I would characterize Caesura, my Sonic/Traps corruptor, as pretty much the definition of a glamourous villain. He's a mercenary to the core, in it for the money. He gets all the cool gadgets, always gets the girl, has an awesome car, and is generally kind of bad-*** all around.


That said, I have written stories about him specifically to show that he is Not A Nice Guy. He is utterly amoral, and willing to stop at nothing to ensure that he gets his goal. He's often needlessly cruel, resorting often to torture and intimidation when he could as easily get what he wants by other means because he likes the way it makes him feel powerful. If I were to confine the entirety of his character to this aspect of his life and his personality, he would be pretty much the definition of the “disgusting” villain.


Conversely, I think a good example of the other end of the spectrum is the Joker from “The Dark Knight.” I don't think there's any question that he was an Absolute Monster. However, he had just enough purpose, flair, charisma, and dare I say, humour, to make the audience want to watch him just to see what awful thing he would do next.


Ultimately, I think the richest characters are the ones that walk that line between “awesome” and “absolute monster.” I try very hard with all of my villains to make them glamourous enough to be relatable, while remaining “disgusting” enough to be legitimately threatening. If you go too far one way, you end up with the kinds of villainy you get from young childrens' TV shows, where the villain is at worst kind of a jerk, whereas if you go too far in the other direction you get either the stereotypical moustache-twirling villain or you get the raging lunatic who wants to blow up the world for no reason other than the fact that the world needs blowing up. Either way, it tends to make for a rather flat character if all they're doing is acting as a walking talking set piece.


I took a class in dramatic narrative while I was in University and the third week in, the teacher said something that I think frames this perfectly. He said, “To make a good antagonist, the villain in your story is the hero of their own story. If your story is about going down to the corner store to get some beer only to be thwarted by the other guy fighting you for the last case, then you should be able to tell the story with the villain as just another guy who wanted beer and being confronted by you.” I think this comes back at least in part to why you feel the “lunatics” don't work for you, Sam, because it's very hard to convey that in a manner that is relatable.


Maybe Matt Damon said it best in “The Talented Mr. Ripley”: Well, whatever you do, however terrible, however hurtful, it all makes sense, doesn't it, in your head. You never meet anybody that thinks they're a bad person.

honestly i see villains as disgusting, or at least focusing on their character flaw, even in their victories.
as for player villains, well i tend to play characters that have one foot in being good but are defined by their character flaw, closer to catwoman than the joker. they don't actively want to harm anyone, but they want what others have, so sometimes someone is going to get non-lethally hurt.

the thing for me was that in light of cov, i didnt really want to play a villain, bu t that was where the content was, so i made the least evil villain possible and ran with it. on both consoles and here i have tried various games that make me a villain, and it aint happening. a sympathetic villain will still be unsympathetic to me because of their character flaw, and the more a author tries to force me to like them(usually as some form of imbedded philosophical commentary of their own) the more their flaw sticks out. as such i tend to be amazed by people who find villains interesting, i cant. no matter how petty or charismatic they are, i see them as pathogens, viruses, nothing more. its cool if people can let that go and make a villain they like, but for me making any villain is simply a reaction to the change in the game's content that i was challenged to adapt to by making a villain that i could tolerate, so i figured a thief was the least reprehensible path to take.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

It is good to see all of you that actually flush out your characters with some thought and design. I hate to say it, but I have so many toons spread across a few servers, I just pick powersets I want to try (usually that may possibly play well with the current PvP mechanics as well as in PvE), draft up a quick backstory for bio purposes and commence to leveling.

The OP has put forth a pretty complex construction epecially when you consider the antivillain and antihero values of the "alignment" spectrum. I mean I wouldn't consider the Wolverine/Punisher archetypes to be either disgusting or glamorous and they're able to murder villains on a regular basis (albeit for the higher good). It really can be difficult categorizing villains into set parameters unless you have a very specific concept in mind.