The End of DC's Modern Age
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2011-08-19 24:26 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
Just wanted to point out to those talking about continuity and tying the universe together and all of that stuff - this reboot isn't half as much about story continuity as it is about that #1 on the cover of the book. The goal is not to get everybody to buy every book, and it's not to make things "make sense." The goal is to give potential new readers an opportunity to get in on the ground floor. When they go out and see a cool Batman movie, or a friend makes a recommendation, they don't walk into a store and see issue #452 and go "what the hell, screw that." Instead they see #9 or #15 or something and they think "OK I'll check it out and if I like it, I can go back and pick up the ones before it."
That's the goal. Will it work? Is it a good idea? I don't know. We'll have to wait and see. All I know is this: After the "New 52" panel at Baltimore Comic Con this weekend, and hearing Scott Snyder talk about Swamp Thing and Batman, I know two #1's I'm picking up in September that I wouldn't have before.
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
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Like I said|
Originally Posted by Quasadu
Just wanted to point out to those talking about continuity and tying the universe together and all of that stuff - this reboot isn't half as much about story continuity as it is about that #1 on the cover of the book. The goal is not to get everybody to buy every book, and it's not to make things "make sense." The goal is to give potential new readers an opportunity to get in on the ground floor. When they go out and see a cool Batman movie, or a friend makes a recommendation, they don't walk into a store and see issue #452 and go "what the hell, screw that." Instead they see #9 or #15 or something and they think "OK I'll check it out and if I like it, I can go back and pick up the ones before it."
That's the goal. Will it work? Is it a good idea? I don't know. We'll have to wait and see. All I know is this: After the "New 52" panel at Baltimore Comic Con this weekend, and hearing Scott Snyder talk about Swamp Thing and Batman, I know two #1's I'm picking up in September that I wouldn't have before. |
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Tthe whole new "#1" issue reset is a shell game. This is a syphilitic hold-over from the whole collectible comics market crash back in the early 90's.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I think there's a difference between the collectible comics game and trying to get new readers in. DC isn't trying for a cash cow at this point, they're trying to survive. For many various reasons they're hemorrhaging readers at this point and are looking for a fresh start; not only in the paper market but also expanding that to the digital market. By giving lower numbers, they're trying to entice new readers so that character history isn't as daunting. In the 90's, #1's came out to pander to the audience that already existed, cashing in on the relatively new market of comic collecting/buying. The 90's weren't going for readers, this reboot is.
I'm not a fan of a lot of the redesigns or the exact way their handling the line between keeping old fans and new (the never-ending problem with continuity), but I am pulling for the company. I'd not be playing CoH today if it weren't for DC helping me fall in love with comics in the first place.
You're not super until you put on The Cape!
Attercap.Net
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I'm sorry, but resetting it to #1 doesn't help achieve this.|
Originally Posted by Attercap
The 90's weren't going for readers, this reboot is.
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It just doesn't. Coming in at issue #3 is no more daunting than coming in at issue #543. The whole sentiment of "getting in on the ground floor with issue #1" is simply the same turd from the 90's with a slightly different packaging.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Back in July I realized I could have not bought any books in August and I wouldn't have missed a thing. Most of the last issues were lousy one offs written by people who weren't the book regular.
Batgirl was great, like the book generally was, and Secret Six was interesting but both of those were written by their regular authors. Red Robin was getting long in the tooth, but it made it across the finish line well enough.
The last issues of Power Girl were okay for one offs, and I'm still sad to see the book end.
The Green Lantern stuff has been terrible.
At least September is almost here so I can look forward to actually buying my comics again.
Infinity
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Cinderstorm 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
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I was referring more about the reasoning of why they were restarting the count than if it worked or not. Comics were experiencing a boom in the 90's thanks to speculative purchasing and releasing #1's and alternate covers and the like cached in on that. The releasing of #1s now is just the hope that it'll bring in new readers because the comic bubble has burst. Whether lower numbers will actually help... *shrug*|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
It just doesn't. Coming in at issue #3 is no more daunting than coming in at issue #543. The whole sentiment of "getting in on the ground floor with issue #1" is simply the same turd from the 90's with a slightly different packaging.
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Personally, I find the current comic medium outdated, especially the concept of "issues" which typically fail to tell a concise story in a solitary purchase. I think DC would have been better off looking more at releasing trades (electronically or via paper) which would have been 4-6 issues thick all at once because, you're right, coming in at the middle of a story (#3, using your example) is still off-putting and lacks a sense of where the earliest place to start is.
You're not super until you put on The Cape!
Attercap.Net
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Originally Posted by Attercap
I was referring more about the reasoning of why they were restarting the count than if it worked or not. Comics were experiencing a boom in the 90's thanks to speculative purchasing and releasing #1's and alternate covers and the like cached in on that. The releasing of #1s now is just the hope that it'll bring in new readers because the comic bubble has burst. Whether lower numbers will actually help... *shrug*
Personally, I find the current comic medium outdated, especially the concept of "issues" which typically fail to tell a concise story in a solitary purchase. I think DC would have been better off looking more at releasing trades (electronically or via paper) which would have been 4-6 issues thick all at once because, you're right, coming in at the middle of a story (#3, using your example) is still off-putting and lacks a sense of where the earliest place to start is. |
I can agree with this. I miss the days when you could pick up a comic and it didn't matter what the number on the cover was because you would always get the whole story in that one issue. There could still be references to past issues, but the entire issue was a self contained story. And even when there was an overall story arc, the book itself still managed to tell an entire story. These days any comic you buy is going to be a 4-6 issue commitment.
The other problem of course being that the books have gotten so expensive. Yeah, I'm old. My first comics were 45 cents (I still have some of them). I know those days are gone forever, but I just cannot convince myself to pay 3-4 dollars an issue when I know before hand that I will have to buy 6 issues to get the whole story.
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taking into account inflation comics cost less now i think... and they really should cost more. The average pay for each piece based on the amount of time/effort put in is under minimum wage.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
I can agree with this. I miss the days when you could pick up a comic and it didn't matter what the number on the cover was because you would always get the whole story in that one issue. There could still be references to past issues, but the entire issue was a self contained story. And even when there was an overall story arc, the book itself still managed to tell an entire story. These days any comic you buy is going to be a 4-6 issue commitment.
The other problem of course being that the books have gotten so expensive. Yeah, I'm old. My first comics were 45 cents (I still have some of them). I know those days are gone forever, but I just cannot convince myself to pay 3-4 dollars an issue when I know before hand that I will have to buy 6 issues to get the whole story. |
First comic I bought was 75 cents and minimum wage was $3.50. When comics were cost $1 minimum wage was $5. Today comics cost $4 and the federal minimum wage is $7.25.
Once upon a time you could go mow someones lawn, work an hour, and if they went cheapskate and only payed you the minimum they had to, you still ended up with enough money to buy almost 5 comics. If that happens to a kid today they can get 1 maybe 2 comics.
Something to keep in mind we considering the price of comics today compared to pre 1995ish. Comics wear printed on a cheaper material with a more limited color array. In the mid 90s the comic industry upgraded to a higher quality paper that gave us gloss and many many more colors for the art work. That same upgrade added big numbers to the price of a comic. I'm only pointing this out since in Japan, they sell alot of comics(mangas) but they print on the cheep paper and in Black and White to keep the price down.
One thing that is the same today as it was when Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created Spiderman, Fantastic Four and the X-men. A new comic is going to give you 20 minutes or so of fresh never seen before entertainment. In 2011 the price of a comic can get me 8 hours of fresh entertainment from Redbox. For the cost of 4 comics I can subscribe to MMO for a month. Comics don't offer a whole lot of "new" bang for a buck.
Once upon a time if you were Batman fan and you wanted to collect Batman your only option was to collect comics. Today, you can be a Batman fan and collect action figures or DVDs or Video games. Maybe its apples and oranges to compare comics and action figures. I just think we should take into consideration if DVDs and Action fiqures didn't exist those Batman fans could possibly be buying Batman comics to fill their Batman needs.
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Its an attempt to say "we have an incredibly rich history and universe of characters and events, but feel free to ignore all of it if you like." They want to have their cake and eat it too. Getting in on the "ground floor" is really nothing more than saying we are still the DC Universe, except we want the right to override any part of it if we want. In effect, the old history is basically legendary and not canonical (and I understand there is an actual new 52 bible that states what is and is not canonical moving forward). They actually want the ability to in effect plagiarize their own content without being beholden to it.|
Originally Posted by Attercap
I think there's a difference between the collectible comics game and trying to get new readers in. DC isn't trying for a cash cow at this point, they're trying to survive. For many various reasons they're hemorrhaging readers at this point and are looking for a fresh start; not only in the paper market but also expanding that to the digital market. By giving lower numbers, they're trying to entice new readers so that character history isn't as daunting. In the 90's, #1's came out to pander to the audience that already existed, cashing in on the relatively new market of comic collecting/buying. The 90's weren't going for readers, this reboot is.
I'm not a fan of a lot of the redesigns or the exact way their handling the line between keeping old fans and new (the never-ending problem with continuity), but I am pulling for the company. I'd not be playing CoH today if it weren't for DC helping me fall in love with comics in the first place. |
Will it work? I have my doubts. Not because I think it can't work, but because I think the very discipline it would take to pull such a thing off is the very discipline DC is announcing to the world they lack by doing the soft reboot. They should have simply done more self-contained stories. But they lack the discipline to not make super duper cross title self-referential hyper event stories. Self contained stories are self contained stories: they present no daunting backstory to intimidate readers. But its too tempting to be "epic." And that temptation will eventually unravel the new 52. Because all that daunting backstory history is still out there, and writers and editors are going to suck it all back in eventually.
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... fire Geoff Johns.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But they lack the discipline to
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I'm not sure DC would have survived this past decade without Johns, and they certainly wouldn't have been better off sales-wise; it's also highly doubtful they would have been better off in terms of stories. It's not really Johns' fault they guys up stairs or either forcing whatever he's doing into a mega-event or demanding mega-events out of him all the time now. I mean, he already took a crack at the continuity mambo with Infinite Crisis; Morrison (or even take it back to DiDio again) fracked that all up with Final Crisis and no one could sustain the readership on any of the titles that Johns moved on from, so yeah . . .
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
... fire Geoff Johns.
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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I'm... not sure that would have been worse, actually.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
I'm not sure DC would have survived this past decade without Johns
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You're approaching Durakken levels of wrongness, sir.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
I'm... not sure that would have been worse, actually.
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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I dunno, I mean, it's like a beloved relative who went totally off the rails and had to be sent to a sanatorium at this point. If it'd just died we'd at least have our untarnished fond memories. No one would ever have to wake up in the morning and think, Wait. Punched the space-time continuum? You tell me that wouldn't be a better world on some level. |
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
You're approaching Durakken levels of wrongness, sir.
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Well, we might think that if we were looking to be dismissive about it, seeing as how SBP didn't punch reality, just like we could write off Blackest Night simply because of multi-colored ring corps.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
I dunno, I mean, it's like a beloved relative who went totally off the rails and had to be sent to a sanatorium at this point. If it'd just died we'd at least have our untarnished fond memories. No one would ever have to wake up in the morning and think, Wait. Punched the space-time continuum? You tell me that wouldn't be a better world on some level.
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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Comics aren't that bad for bang-for-the-buck. Movies in theaters have that same issue. Once you factor in a drink and maybe some popcorn, you are approaching, if not outright over, the cost factor for a month of an MMO. And that's if you go by yourself. A matinee with just a drink can squeak by, but a night showing will be over.|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
One thing that is the same today as it was when Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created Spiderman, Fantastic Four and the X-men. A new comic is going to give you 20 minutes or so of fresh never seen before entertainment. In 2011 the price of a comic can get me 8 hours of fresh entertainment from Redbox. For the cost of 4 comics I can subscribe to MMO for a month. Comics don't offer a whole lot of "new" bang for a buck.
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Two hours of entertainment vs a month's sub. It's not really difficult math there. Comparatively, an MMO will beat out most things in terms of return on investment for entertainment purposes.
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Indeed we could. And, once again, human civilization would rest easier in its bed at night. |
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
we could write off Blackest Night simply because of multi-colored ring corps.
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Seriously, though, I mean, crap is crap, regardless of whether it Saves the Day corporate-survival-wise.
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We obviously aren't going to agree on this, so I'll just say I really enjoyed Johns' body of work over this last decade, including Flash, Teen Titans, JSA, 52, Infinite Crisis, Superman, and Green Lantern. I thought he always did a good job of striking a balance between action and characterization, and I don't think there's ever been a more well-orchestrated crossover event than Infinite Crisis.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Indeed we could. And, once again, human civilization would rest easier in its bed at night.
Seriously, though, I mean, crap is crap, regardless of whether it Saves the Day corporate-survival-wise. |
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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Originally Posted by Dark One
Comics aren't that bad for bang-for-the-buck. Movies in theaters have that same issue. Once you factor in a drink and maybe some popcorn, you are approaching, if not outright over, the cost factor for a month of an MMO. And that's if you go by yourself. A matinee with just a drink can squeak by, but a night showing will be over.
Two hours of entertainment vs a month's sub. It's not really difficult math there. Comparatively, an MMO will beat out most things in terms of return on investment for entertainment purposes. |
But movies suffer from the same problem that comics have. The price increases are not due just to inflation, but the increased production costs. Good, quality movies can be made for far less than the current average. Not every movie has to have the biggest stars. Even decent special effects don't require budgets in the hundreds of millions. It's more a mindset of "more is MORE" and the entertainment industry can't get away from that. And, for the most part, we the public encourage it by demanding more even while we complain about how much it costs. It's a vicious cycle.
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I'm with the squirrel on this one.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
We obviously aren't going to agree on this, so I'll just say I really enjoyed Johns' body of work over this last decade, including Flash, Teen Titans, JSA, 52, Infinite Crisis, Superman, and Green Lantern. I thought he always did a good job of striking a balance between action and characterization, and I don't think there's ever been a more well-orchestrated crossover event than Infinite Crisis.
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@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
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... Yeah, you're right, there's no possibility of agreement here. I'm having a hard time even believing you're serious with that statement.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
I don't think there's ever been a more well-orchestrated crossover event than Infinite Crisis.
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Are they still making the digital price point the same as print for the first month of release? I'm a bit conflicted. On the one hand I want to see digital sales bomb because of the lack of a competitive price for those who just want to read the stories and own a digital copy. And on the other hand I want digital comics to succeed and show that there is a market for it.
As for the reboot I have similar feelings. I want it to bomb for ditching continuity and dumping us with some 90's rejects. But if it does it might be the end of DC as we know. I had know interest in DC until a few years ago when Joe Q started running Marvel into the ground. And it would kind of suck if Joe Q's Marvel was the only game in town.
Way to many alts.
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Last I heard, the prices for digital and print are the same first month of release, then digital gets a dollar cheaper. I like this model, as those who are patient can get a much better deal on their comics. It'll be the only way I read Batman or Superman most likely|
Originally Posted by Scarlet_Phantom
Are they still making the digital price point the same as print for the first month of release?
I had [no] interest in DC until a few years ago when Joe Q started running Marvel into the ground. And it would kind of suck if Joe Q's Marvel was the only game in town. |
And its, kind of funny, that I used to read Marvel books exclusively, but I've slowly phased out all my Marvel titles sans the Avengers books and picked up a large DC pull list. In my world, right now DC has the characters that are worth reading about.
Infinity
Sam Varden 50 MA/Reg Scrap
Doomtastic 50 SS/Inv Brute
Ceus 50 Eng/Kin Corr
Cinderstorm 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
DC is pretty much done with me.
Maybe in a year or two I'll check back.
I'm actually considering changing my avatar pic.
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