Alignment QOL and Equalization.
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2011-08-13 14:47 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Is that not the payoff people playing the "pure" alignments get in return for not being able to travel freely to all the zones and team up with anybody and everybody?
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Originally Posted by Soul_System
2nd I cannot get A-merits. Even if I do the exact same amount I will end up falling behind reward wise.
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Yep. That's the choice Rogues and Vigilantes have to make. They can either remain between both factions and team and travel with everyone, or they can pick a side to get the benefit of A-merits. The system is working exactly as the devs intended.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Is that not the payoff people playing the "pure" alignments get in return for not being able to travel freely to all the zones and team up with anybody and everybody?
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Unless redside suddenly becomes booming that's kinda a shallow arguement. Especially since there is alot of crossover content and future content is all designed to be crossover. Especially since story arcs are pretty much left in the dust. With the joint zones you can team with anyone at any level. You just can't experience the redside content that most people don't bother with unless your a vigilante.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Is that not the payoff people playing the "pure" alignments get in return for not being able to travel freely to all the zones and team up with anybody and everybody?
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If I want to help my friend level up in a different alignment there is pocket D, AE, RWZ, etc. If I want to experience the content of red side i can flip at any time, or start red side then flip. If I want, thematically, to make a choice of the moral grey area though I get penalized long term. To me it's like being penalized for being natural origin.
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"Off in the distance I can see a huge holographic Ronald McDonald walking between the grain elevators and trees. If I had the money I'd have them make one of those of me, and I'd send myself to stalk the landscape and scare everybody. You see... 'cause I've got this sort of field around me. Because... 'cause I've got spikes. Because I go between the zones even when I'm not supposed to. Because I am a suspicious person report... and it's time to go shopping."
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yep. That's the choice Rogues and Vigilantes have to make. They can either remain between both factions and team and travel with everyone, or they can pick a side to get the benefit of A-merits. The system is working exactly as the devs intended.
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Dropping the A-merit thing for the moment, assuming thats the tradeoff, is there any reason we couldnt get some sort of partial credit for helping others with their alignment missions? It's not like we'll progress faster, we'll still progress slower. But it will at least make us not have to dismiss and then run 5 missions solo just to get ANY rewards.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yep. That's the choice Rogues and Vigilantes have to make. They can either remain between both factions and team and travel with everyone, or they can pick a side to get the benefit of A-merits. The system is working exactly as the devs intended.
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You get XP. You get Enhancement drops. You get Salvage drops. You get Recipe Drops. You get Prestige if you are in SG mode.|
Originally Posted by Soul_System
Dropping the A-merit thing for the moment, assuming thats the tradeoff, is there any reason we couldnt get some sort of partial credit for helping others with their alignment missions? It's not like we'll progress faster, we'll still progress slower. But it will at least make us not have to dismiss and then run 5 missions solo just to get ANY rewards.
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You are getting rewards and you can go between zones and run missions on both sides, things that pure alignments can't do. There are trade-offs built into the system. The thing is, you get to choose which are important to you.
If you really want all of the rewards that Heroes get for affirming their alignment, switch over to the Hero side. If you really want all of the rewards that Villains get for affirming their alignment, switch over to the Villain side. If you want to be able to run Hero missions and Villain missions and travel between the zones, stay in the gray area. It's your choice.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Re-affirming your Vigilance/Rogue status does give you 50 reward merits as well.
No, you can't turn them in for A-merits as a Vig/Rogue, but if you could, A-merits cost exactly 50 reward merits and 20 Million. So should you chose to go fully hero, or back fully Villain, you've at least got the Reward Merits to turn in for an A-Merit.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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You didn't pay attention much to what you quoted did you? This is in regards to simple QOL being able to handle your vigilante/rogue tips, and get your vigilante/rogue rewards by running with heros/villains, albeit at a slower pace. That way maybe if i help people run 10 hero missions in a day, I get my 5 vigilante fame at the same time. |
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
You get XP. You get Enhancement drops. You get Salvage drops. You get Recipe Drops. You get Prestige if you are in SG mode.
You are getting rewards and you can go between zones and run missions on both sides, things that pure alignments can't do. There are trade-offs built into the system. The thing is, you get to choose which are important to you. If you really want all of the rewards that Heroes get for affirming their alignment, switch over to the Hero side. If you really want all of the rewards that Villains get for affirming their alignment, switch over to the Villain side. If you want to be able to run Hero missions and Villain missions and travel between the zones, stay in the gray area. It's your choice. |
You could reason that me being there I added my vigilante spin to things, but was overruled by the group. Much the way Batman is known for conflicting with Superman, even if only 1 end decision is made. Even though they might do the goody goody thing, Batman still gets more known as being vigilante.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Re-affirming your Vigilance/Rogue status does give you 50 reward merits as well.
No, you can't turn them in for A-merits as a Vig/Rogue, but if you could, A-merits cost exactly 50 reward merits and 20 Million. So should you chose to go fully hero, or back fully Villain, you've at least got the Reward Merits to turn in for an A-Merit. |
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I did pay attention.|
Originally Posted by Soul_System
You didn't pay attention much to what you quoted did you? This is in regards to simple QOL being able to handle your vigilante/rogue tips, and get your vigilante/rogue rewards by running with heros/villains, albeit at a slower pace. That way maybe if i help people run 10 hero missions in a day, I get my 5 vigilante fame at the same time.
You could reason that me being there I added my vigilante spin to things, but was overruled by the group. Much the way Batman is known for conflicting with Superman, even if only 1 end decision is made. Even though they might do the goody goody thing, Batman still gets more known as being vigilante. |
You are wanting the hero/villain rewards for running hero/villain alignment missions when not a hero/villain.
I'm pointing out to you that you there are rewards for you doing those things, but they aren't the hero/villain rewards. And that is the tradeoff you make when YOU CHOOSE to remain in the rogue/vigilante state.
IF you want the hero/villain rewards, you can make the switch to full hero/villain status but you are limited to your zones and missions. IF you want to be able to cross between hero and villain zones and run both sets of mission you can choose to remain rogue/vigilante but you lose access to some of the rewards that a full hero/villain gets. Both get things that the other doesn't. It's all your choice.
The rewards you are talking about are rewards for affirming your hero/villain status. As Rangle stated, there are rewards for affirming your rogue/vigilante status as well. Heroes and villains don't get those rewards because they've made the choice to stay hero/villain.
On today's Lunch menu we have the following specials:
Chicken Fried Steak with Mashed Potatoes and Gravy, Corn, and Chocolate Ice Cream.
Or
Spaghetti with Meatballs, Apple Gorgonzola Salad, and Cherry Casata Torte.
No Substitutions allowed.
You want the Spaghetti with Meatballs and the Apple Gorgonzola Salad but you want the Chocolate Ice Cream instead, even though that doesn't come with the Spagehetti Special.
You have to decide which menu offerings choices you want but you don't get to cherry pick off of the other menu choices. It's all or nothing.
Same with the Alignment system.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
This isn't a QoL issue. It's a morality choice between being good or evil and not playing both sides. The complete names of the merits are Hero Alignment Merits and Villain Alignment Merits. Rogues and Vigilantes are not members of either faction and thus are by design not entitled to earn the merits.
You can argue all the excuses you want but it doesn't change he fact that the devs want you to choose to be either a hero or a villain in order to be eligible to get the merits.
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
I did pay attention.
You are wanting the hero/villain rewards for running hero/villain alignment missions when not a hero/villain. I'm pointing out to you that you there are rewards for you doing those things, but they aren't the hero/villain rewards. And that is the tradeoff you make when YOU CHOOSE to remain in the rogue/vigilante state. IF you want the hero/villain rewards, you can make the switch to full hero/villain status but you are limited to your zones and missions. IF you want to be able to cross between hero and villain zones and run both sets of mission you can choose to remain rogue/vigilante but you lose access to some of the rewards that a full hero/villain gets. Both get things that the other doesn't. It's all your choice. The rewards you are talking about are rewards for affirming your hero/villain status. As Rangle stated, there are rewards for affirming your rogue/vigilante status as well. Heroes and villains don't get those rewards because they've made the choice to stay hero/villain. On today's Lunch menu we have the following specials: Chicken Fried Steak with Mashed Potatoes and Gravy, Corn, and Chocolate Ice Cream. Or Spaghetti with Meatballs, Apple Gorgonzola Salad, and Cherry Casata Torte. No Substitutions allowed. You want the Spaghetti with Meatballs and the Apple Gorgonzola Salad but you want the Chocolate Ice Cream instead, even though that doesn't come with the Spagehetti Special. You have to decide which menu offerings choices you want but you don't get to cherry pick off of the other menu choices. It's all or nothing. Same with the Alignment system. |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
This isn't a QoL issue. It's a morality choice between being good or evil and not playing both sides. The complete names of the merits are Hero Alignment Merits and Villain Alignment Merits. Rogues and Vigilantes are not members of either faction and thus are by design not entitled to earn the merits.
You can argue all the excuses you want but it doesn't change he fact that the devs want you to choose to be either a hero or a villain in order to be eligible to get the merits. |
Read again "I want VIGILANTE FAME for VIGILANTE REWARDS that are DIFFERENT THAN HERO REWARDS from helping with my sides tip missions." I'm not even asking the same pacing, I even gave thematic justification of how, for instance, a vigilante would earn vigilante fame while helping with a heroic mission. After all vigilante's do their own thing, but if they didn't share heroic sympathies they would be Rogue's. Helping hero's sometimes and choosing their own way others is what vigilante's do. Same story with Rogue and Villain.
So here is the focal sentence: "Do you think it's fair for me to earn vigilante fame, for vigilante rewards (reward merits) at a reduced rate for helping hero missions?" (and the same for rogue/villains). It could be set to a choice so as to allow ascending but also allow vigilante's/rogues to play the field, as is their wont.
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Originally Posted by Soul_System
"Do you think it's fair for me to earn vigilante fame, for vigilante rewards (reward merits) at a reduced rate for helping hero missions?"
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Short answer: Nope. Rogues and Vigilantes get the option of doing content with teams on either side. They have increased Merit earning potential if they choose to take part in it, and that and their flexibility are their rewards.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Thank you, while it might not have been what I wanted to hear it was pertinent to what I was saying :P. I assume this increased merit earning potential (IE possible if conditions are just right) and the ability to team on both sides are big enough perks to outweigh the significantly higher (and easier) earning potential of A-merits? (whether it be recipe or inf)|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Short answer: Nope. Rogues and Vigilantes get the option of doing content with teams on either side. They have increased Merit earning potential if they choose to take part in it, and that and their flexibility are their rewards.
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Perhaps I'll agree with you post I-21. Maybe new life will be breathed into red side with the easier rolling to either side/start.
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That's a call for a value judgment, so everybody's answer is liable to be a little bit different. The game's designers, though, have the only opinions that ultimately matter (watch that remark get taken out of context), and the evidence suggests that their answer is "yes they are."|
Originally Posted by Soul_System
I assume this increased merit earning potential (IE possible if conditions are just right) and the ability to team on both sides are big enough perks to outweigh the significantly higher (and easier) earning potential of A-merits?
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Now, you want to talk alignment quality of life, why can't heroes become rogues without going all the way to villain and coming partway back? Not only is that an artificially drawn-out process thanks to the tip cap (which is its own issue altogether), it doesn't make sense from the standpoint of the in-game flavor they've tried to give the alignments. You can't become motivated by the profit margin without spending some time as a full-on sociopath? What Marxist-Leninist party hack came up with that bit of lore?
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I agree with this as well. Not only should the artificial jump be removed but the tip limit per day (for the purpose of transferring) should be removed. They can put a 20 hour lockout on the reward, let us "rise" or "fall" much more quickly. I would be ok with having to do some sort of arc, or double the amount of missions, but the time lockout is just arbitrary (as far as switching sides goes).
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
That's a call for a value judgment, so everybody's answer is liable to be a little bit different. The game's designers, though, have the only opinions that ultimately matter (watch that remark get taken out of context), and the evidence suggests that their answer is "yes they are."
Now, you want to talk alignment quality of life, why can't heroes become rogues without going all the way to villain and coming partway back? Not only is that an artificially drawn-out process thanks to the tip cap (which is its own issue altogether), it doesn't make sense from the standpoint of the in-game flavor they've tried to give the alignments. You can't become motivated by the profit margin without spending some time as a full-on sociopath? What Marxist-Leninist party hack came up with that bit of lore? |
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READ MY LIPS: I'm NOT Talking about A-Merits. YOU are the ones that keep bringing A-Merits into the discussion. |
Originally Posted by Soul_System
Would both of you drop the bloody A-merits. I know this goes against all internet logic but I agreed with you, albeit grudgingly, and CHANGED MY MIND on that. The last post that both of yall ran hard core towards A-merits on, had nothing whatsoever to do with A-merits.
Read again "I want VIGILANTE FAME for VIGILANTE REWARDS that are DIFFERENT THAN HERO REWARDS from helping with my sides tip missions." I'm not even asking the same pacing, I even gave thematic justification of how, for instance, a vigilante would earn vigilante fame while helping with a heroic mission. After all vigilante's do their own thing, but if they didn't share heroic sympathies they would be Rogue's. Helping hero's sometimes and choosing their own way others is what vigilante's do. Same story with Rogue and Villain. So here is the focal sentence: "Do you think it's fair for me to earn vigilante fame, for vigilante rewards (reward merits) at a reduced rate for helping hero missions?" (and the same for rogue/villains). It could be set to a choice so as to allow ascending but also allow vigilante's/rogues to play the field, as is their wont. |
You keep saying you want some type of Rewards for running Hero or Villain Alignment missions with your friends that are full Hero or Villain. I keep telling you that you are getting rewards. There are different rewards available depending on what your alignment is. IF you want specific rewards, you have to make a choice.
The reward for being a Hero running a Hero Alignment mission affirming that he is a Hero isn't something that should be offered to someone that isn't a Hero.
The reward for being a Villain running a Villain Alignment mission affirming that he is a Villain isn't something that should be offered to someone that isn't a Villain.
The reward for being a Rogue of Vigilante is that you can go places that a full Hero or Villain can't go and do missions that a full Hero or Villain can't do.
Those are trade-offs in the system. It's all about choice. What I'm saying has nothing to do with A-Merits. It has to do with why you aren't being given some type of credit for doing Hero/Villain Alignment missions when you aren't of that alignment. Since the mission is to Affirm the Hero/Villain alignment, credit (even partial credit) should not be given to someone that is not a Hero/Villain since you are not affirming anything.
You are merely along to assist and you are being rewarded for that with XP, Drops of various types, Prestige if in SG/VG mode. You aren't being offered Hero/Villain credit in a Hero/Villain Alignment mission since you aren't a Hero/Villain due to a choice you've made.
If you want the Hero/Villain credit for doing the Hero/Villain Alignment missions, you'll have to give up the rewards you get for being a Rogue/Vigilante.
If you want the Rogue/Vigilante rewards, you'll have to give up the Hero/Villain credit.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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But those were the rewards i originally stated and was talking about since step one lol. Dunno how what i meant changed without me |
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
READ MY LIPS: I'm NOT Talking about A-Merits. YOU are the ones that keep bringing A-Merits into the discussion.
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. The other was more of a making it easier to team together and get the "dailies" accomplished.
I still don't think pathetically easy access to rare recipes and frankly, access period to high-tier rewards is something that is equal with the dubious benefit of being able to team up on either side of the game.
Maybe, just maybe, if Vigilantes and Rogues could actually get missions from the other side's cities beyond more tips, it would be more fair, and even then I'm not sure.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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Now this would be a lot closer to a QoL than what the OP is asking for.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Maybe, just maybe, if Vigilantes and Rogues could actually get missions from the other side's cities beyond more tips, it would be more fair, and even then I'm not sure.
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I just wish the UI would show me an Alignment Roundel when I click on another Player, so I could see what THEIR Alignment is. Right now, that functionality is not a part of the $Target UI.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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? Everything settled on the rewards, which i dropped, im just asking for more comparable ease of running the tip missions for fame by letting us get partial credit from our sides other alignment missions. When most are pure because of the rewards most run pure tip missions. That's usually 7 members of the team getting their tips done all at once during the fun of a team, while i'll have to go solo them unless i search for as long as it takes to solo them to get a partner. Either that or i grab someone that gets no additional rewards for helping me. Which is not fair to them considering we could be running something to progress us both.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Now this would be a lot closer to a QoL than what the OP is asking for.
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The fact that we do not get true access to both sides is just part of our tradeoff, right?
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Actually, 60 merits.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Re-affirming your Vigilance/Rogue status does give you 50 reward merits as well.
No, you can't turn them in for A-merits as a Vig/Rogue, but if you could, A-merits cost exactly 50 reward merits and 20 Million. So should you chose to go fully hero, or back fully Villain, you've at least got the Reward Merits to turn in for an A-Merit. |
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Is it 60? Dang, my bad.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Actually, 60 merits.
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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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So glad to see you finally understand. |
Originally Posted by Soul_System
The fact that we do not get true access to both sides is just part of our tradeoff, right?
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Right now I team with alot of people, most are hero since I'm blue side and you get A-merits for running tips. I'm vigilante. This means i get left out in the cold 2 ways. This needs to be equalized and made fair.
1st I cannot get my tips done easily with the group, I have to do them on my own while ev everyone else gets theirs done all at once during the fun of teaming. Give us at least half credit. IE for every 2 hero/villain tip completed we get credit for 1 vigilante/rogue tip. We are, after all, not that far away. We are a shade of grey, sharing many of the same philosophies but differing in a few key areas. Chances are I agree with some of what they are doing even if i would do it differently.
2nd I cannot get A-merits. Even if I do the exact same amount I will end up falling behind reward wise. That's not cool, there is no real reason to do that. Either let Vigilante's/Rogues get A-merits or convert the A-merit system down into reward merits completely. Either way both sides should be treated equally.