Okay, let's sort this out once and for all. Lore: What do we do about it?

So as more and more issues come out the more and more I see players starting to object to the state of this game's storyline. This probably has a lot to do with the fact that after a couple of years where the game's lore didn't really go anywhere (I would say roughly from issues 9-17), the game's lore has begun to rapidly advance, and with it bring a whole host of various revelations, reveals, and retcons. And understandably, not everyone is happy about this.

But as I read more and more posts I begin to wonder if this issue is really as pervasive as it seems or is it just the work of a few dedicated and vocal individuals. So honestly, I think it's high time we all just lay our cards on the table and say what we think about this game's lore. So to that end, a couple of questions.

1: Is the lore of this game significant enough to be a reason to subscribe?

(My answer: Yes, but it's always been secondary to the gameplay.)

2: Is the lore of this game fundamentally broken? That is to say, contradictary, messy, and poorly written?

(My answer: Yes and no. Yeah the lore can be poorly written, but for every badly written story there's a good one to balance it out. And frankly, due to the weird per character basis on which continuity works in this game, the lore has always been eight kinds of screwed up.)

3: Do you like the current direction the lore is taking?

(My answer: All things considered, yes I do. Personally I've always liked stories that let the characters grow and grow in power until they reach near-godhood, and from a conceptual level I'm glad the game is going in that direction. The actual execution of that direction could use some work, in that frankly I feel it's a bit too complex for it's own good right now, but I'm overall content with it.)

4: Would you like the development team to spend a significant amount of time fixing all the old lore, even if that meant spending an issue not moving the game's story forward and just patching things up?

(My answer: Nah. I would much rather have new shiny stuff.)

<QR>

Okay, I'll bite...

1) Subscribe? Depends on how deeply you want to get into it. When I was young and Dad was paying for my comics, I had both DC and Marvel titles on my pull list. Prices eventually went up to the point that Dad said I had to make a choice, and I decided I'd rather read about the Justice League than the Avengers so I pulled my Marvel titles out. In short, that's a personal decision based on how much people like reading about Statesman, et al.

2) Contradictary? On occasion? Messy? Yeah, probably. Poorly written? Not in my opinion.

3) Can't really answer that since the "Gathering Storm" stuff still seems to be intentionally vague. Specifically, I think changing Praetoria from the "Star Trek 'Mirror, Mirror'" universe into "Morally Grayville" is more interesting from a STORY perspective, but leads to the contradictions and messyness above.

4) I think they can BOTH fix old lore and still generate new stuff. In fact, I'd hire me as editor to rewrite the older lore.

...what?

I have no problem with the "lore" of this game as an effective backdrop to populate the game world with NPCs and a sense of history. But by the same token none of my character concepts actually rely on any specific plot point connected to the lore. This makes my characters relatively immune to any changes that occur beyond my control.

I can see if you have a character concept that heavily relies on specific elements of the game lore that it would be annoying if the game around that character changes enough to mess that up. All I can say is that things like that are bound to happen in one form or another in a game as long-lived as this one.

Okay, I'll play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Squid 1: Is the lore of this game significant enough to be a reason to subscribe? 2: Is the lore of this game fundamentally broken? That is to say, contradictary, messy, and poorly written? 3: Do you like the current direction the lore is taking? 4: Would you like the development team to spend a significant amount of time fixing all the old lore, even if that meant spending an issue not moving the game's story forward and just patching things up?

1. No, not alone. Even for someone like me, who pays attention to the stories and usually likes them, they aren't the sole or even primary reason for subscribing. It's a combination of gameplay, visuals, and story.

2. The lore is sometimes contradictory and often messy, but I have rarely found it to be poorly written. I applaud the question for breaking these ideas up. I read a lot of complaints about the backstory that scream, "These writers suck!" when they actually mean, "This new thing contradicts the old stuff!" (Some also scream, "These writers suck!" when they really mean, "I don't like [time travel/alternate universe/giant dinosaur/alien invasion/what-have-you] stories." There have been more and more such people in the superhero/comics world ever since comics began tearing themselves apart in the '80's. Personally, I don't think every superhero story needs to have the overwrought personalities of Watchmen or the emotional hooks of The Incredibles or reflect manga rather than western comics or whatever, but I'm starting to think I'm in the minority.)

3. Speaking of personal taste, I'm not a fan of the Praetorian storyline. Its guiding theme seems to be, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!" I'm just not comfortable with that notion, especially in a fairly lighthearted setting of superheroic adventure. Further, while I understand Praetoria and Incarnates had to be tied together because they were being sold together, it's a pretty rough marriage. That said, I think the writing team has done a good job of presenting it and making the most of the material they were given to work with.

4. This question is akin to, "Would you have a issue of just bug fixes?" Like that question, it overlooks that the writing is an ongoing process integrated with other aspects of design. For what it's worth, I don't think any of the issues with the backstory are serious enough to warrant something this radical, or even to warrant in-game changes, for the most part. There are inconsistencies and rough patches, but I don't think they're as game-breaking as most people who comment on the story here like to argue.

I would, however, suggest that the way the story bible is maintained from here on out change. Despite repeated player arguments to the contrary, there is a story bible. Former chief writer Manticore has quoted from it extensively, and CoH comics writer Troy Hickman has described its appearance. However, having seen the quotation made by Manticore (it was about the Minions of Igneous and explained why they are called that), I see a significant issue with it, one that explains most of the inconsistencies and other issues I've seen lately: it isn't being maintained consistently.

The story bible itself, or an outline the writing team comes up with in a meeting, is just a preliminary document. The actual in-game story that gets delivered may differ from it. When that happens, the story bible needs to be updated to reflect what actually went into the game. This is not a novel. There is not a single person who can resolve all story conflicts and provide final answers on all questions. If a statement on the story gets made in-game, it needs to go into the central document. The other side of all this is that the writing team needs to review the material before writing, rather than just going ahead with the ideas that came out of the meeting with the art and mission design teams. It's pretty much that simple.

Finally, all the player screaming over lore should realize something. No one paid to deal with this stuff as a work for hire will ever have the investment in it that a fan does.

1: Is the lore of this game significant enough to be a reason to subscribe?

IMO, no. But that is not because I dislike it or that I think it is bad (neither of which are true), it is simply further down my "list of values" than other things. I play this game to make my own superhero ideas come to life, and while some are based in the lore of the game, many could exist in any game.

2: Is the lore of this game fundamentally broken? That is to say, contradictory, messy, and poorly written?

It's here and there. Some arcs are a hot mess of seemingly random missions with only a loose storyline. Others are tight and have a very coherent and engaging storyline. I'll say this: the quality has been steadily increasing over the past year or two.

3: Do you like the current direction the lore is taking?

I'm going to take this to mean "heavy focus on Praetoria." If this is the case, then I am fine with it for the time being, but I am just beginning to tire of it. Granted, with the addition of First Ward and the different side of Praetoria that that will offer, it may become more interesting. But after i20.5, I began to feel like we were getting a whole lot of Praetoria-related content, and not much else.

4: Would you like the development team to spend a significant amount of time fixing all the old lore, even if that meant spending an issue not moving the game's story forward and just patching things up?

Just fixing the old lore? No because I am not sure how much of it really needs "fixing." But expanding on it as well as possibly updating it? Hell yes. A changing universe is a huge part of character immersion. The changes being made to Galaxy City are a huge step in (what is, in my opinion) the right direction. Basically, making "what if" scenarios come to life. For example:

• What if Arachnos expanded their base behind Faultline's dam?
• What if "the Zig" had a catastrophe?
• What if something actually happened in Dark Astoria or Boomtown?

As one of the vocal voices (I have no problem envisioning people at PS looking at the forum and saying "Oh, yeah, Slickriptide is ******** about the story again. Moving on...") I'll limit my answers to short ones:

1) Yes, emphatically.

2) No, at least not for what I take the word "fundamentally" to mean. It is frequently inconsistent and opaque.

3) A qualified no, but that's not my lookout. I don't expect the devs to change the direction of the story just because I don't like the idea of a cosmic Elder God being involved.

4) Yes, emphatically. I would be quite happy if an issue was devoted to investing the lore into the game so that it was accessible, official, correct, and relevant. Especially if it meant that some sort of historical content was added to coincide with that infusion of lore. The "story pack" in Guild Wars being an excellent example of such content. (The player relives a historical event by playing the main character of that historical event rather than playing her own character, and gets a souvenier on completion of the content.)

Lore! uhhhh...good God ya'll....What is it good for?!

Couldn't resist...but to answer your questions...

1. Reason to subscribe, no. A factor, yes, though pretty much one of the smaller factors.

2. No. It has its weak points, but I actually don't expect a masterpiece of fiction from a video game.

3. No in so far as the "current direction" has been towards Praetoria. Yes in that the latest turn has been to start moving toward the Coming Storm.

4. Significant, no. Some, yes.

That Guild Wars idea is a cool one. I'd love it if something similar were added to Ouroboros.

For me, there are lots of confusing and contradictory items in the game. The recent threads discussing whether Back Alley Brawler is part of the Freedom Phalanx or not are a case in point.

Another thing that irks me to no end is the insistence the writers have on creating storylines and lore to explain changes to game mechanics. The Origin of Power and Power Proliferation are the worst offenders in my book, but it goes all the way back to the not-having-capes-at-launch silliness. I think they should stop doing such nonsense because it is utterly irrelevant. That's exactly like writing new lore because we got new hats in the costume creator. (I'd also take out the two things above, because they are just dumb.)

Retcons need to be sorted out. Particularly this whole "Well of Furies" business. Statesman originally went to the Orient to unlock his willpower or chi or whatever, then when CoV came out they added Lord Recluse who had to be Statesman's best bud, so instead they adventured around Europe after WW I and found the Well of Furies, an actual water well, and they opened Pandora's Box, which released superpowers into the world. Now the well isn't a water well but an amorphous conduit of power that can... I'm not sure, really. Take whatever shape it wants? Or, not "wants" because it's apparently not sentient. Yet still has a goal. Or something. No idea.

With Statesman's journey, Hero 1's Excalibur/Lady of the Lake connection and the Lost Continent of Mu and the African gods, it seemed to me the original intent was to have multiple sources of power in the world. To me, that's much more interesting than the new Well business, but they could combine both ideas into saying that the Well is somehow the source of all that stuff, it just manifests differently. Whatever they do, they really should go through the lore bible and sort everything out.

Sure, why not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Squid 1: Is the lore of this game significant enough to be a reason to subscribe?

That's a loaded question, to say nothing of a meaningless one. City of Heroes is a collection of features, and I dare say no single feature alone is worth subscribing to the game. You should, instead, have asked something along the lines of "Is the lore important/central to your gaming experience."

Story, plot and lore are crucial to any good game. In City of Heroes, they serve to inspire me, expand my horizons and bathe me in amazing ideas. When I am presented with good stories, I am moved to sympathise with the characters, care about events that transpire and generally be emotionally invested in the game. That's the sort of hook gameplay CANNOT offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Squid 2: Is the lore of this game fundamentally broken? That is to say, contradictary, messy, and poorly written?

"Fundamentally broken" is also a loaded term, as it implies that the lore is so broken that it cannot be salvaged. It isn't. It is, however, "severely broken" and in need of some serious TLC. The City of Heroes canon contradicts itself all over the place, when new stories are added, they often deprecate older stories, turning them into nonsense (see poor Angus McQueen) and some stories contradict themselves within their own narrative (see Roy Cooling). What's more, for every great, moving story written with love and talent we have ten mediocre flops the Shadowy Figure, Lt. Demitrovich, Roy Cooling and any of the "You go do that and I pay you!" dreck that plagues red-side.

What's worse is that a lot of even the newest stories suffer terribly on a purely technical level. I don't know if Paragon Studios employ an editor, but I've seen far too many story arcs ship with inexcusable spelling and grammar errors that really detract from the experience, and I've seen all too many written in a very ho-hum "Ikea erotica" fashion, boiling down to essentially a sequence of "this happened, then this happened, then this happened again." Just check out the Quaterfield TF souvenir to see what I mean - creatively bankrupt writing that strives for nothing more than to put SOMETHING in the briefing boxes, even if it's terrible.

Comic books can make sense and make for compelling reading. City of Heroes has many shining examples of this. But the timelines need to be straightened up and the writing cleaned up BIG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Squid 3: Do you like the current direction the lore is taking?

That depends. Had you asked me before I heard news of Freedom, I'd have said "No." Praetoria was interesting at first, but it has been sorely overdone and its importance badly overstated. We had more or less a full year of Praetoria, and to me it looked like we were due for a year more. My beef with the whole Incarnate/Praetorian shtick is that it expects all of my characters to be politically-minded. It's not about just doing the right thing or doing whatever you like, you have to be loyal to someone, you have to fight in someone else's war, you have to report to someone else... This whole thing where my characters are always someone's lackey or ally or servant or such just never sat well with me.

If you ask me NOW? I don't really know. I haven't seen much of the I21 storyline since I've been busy with work and the Beta server has been wonky. But to be honest, moving away from Praetoria, even partially, counts for a lot. I like the idea behind the First Ward, I like the idea behind the Shiva meteorite and that's all I know about the story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Squid 4: Would you like the development team to spend a significant amount of time fixing all the old lore, even if that meant spending an issue not moving the game's story forward and just patching things up?

This is a loaded question for me, because I don't really even want an evolving, progressing storyline. I don't like having old content taken out of the game or rendered contradictory, and I'm perfectly happy following the imaginary "level-based" timeline without needing a real-life timeline to spice it up. For me, returning the Jewel of Hera or putting down Colonel Metzger is as fresh now as it was back in 2004, because in the timeline of my characters, these events are happening "now."

So, yes, I would like to see the development team spend a significant amount of time cleaning up their act. Fix the inconsistencies and contradictions, spell-check your texts (and actually read the so I don't have to facepalm over your/you're mistakes) and rewrite any arcs that come off pointless. And when I say "pointless," I mean arcs that have zero significance in the grand scheme of things. I don't care about virtual money that I don't even get. If a contact has my villain do something, have that result in something interesting. Not just "Go kill, come back, get paid."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

1: Is the lore of this game significant enough to be a reason to subscribe?

Yes, there's more than enough potentially interesting lore to create a character and play out a narrative arc if you put your mind to it.

2: Is the lore of this game fundamentally broken? That is to say, contradictary, messy, and poorly written?

Yes, in the sense that in its current state it's like a broken-down jalopy. It will eventually get you from here to there, but the ride will be bumpy, the derails and breakdowns inevitable, and the repairs jerry-rigged.

3: Do you like the current direction the lore is taking?

No. With the Going Rogue expansion's successful retcon of the "evil goatee" alternate dimension now well in the past, the pile-up of plotlines for Praetoria, the Well of Furies, and the Coming Storm is reaching the point of no return.

4: Would you like the development team to spend a significant amount of time fixing all the old lore, even if that meant spending an issue not moving the game's story forward and just patching things up?

Yes. I think the devs need to create a small but dedicated Strike Team to repair the lore that's broken down and set a proper course for future development. It's probably too late to call in Rick Dakan as a consultant, though Troy Hickman might be amendable. Otherwise, Dr. Aeon would be an excellent in-house choice to lead the team.

I blame Mender Silos. "A Time Traveler did it" is the new "A Wizard did it".

I like the game to have a lore and storyline. That said, even if it was perfect, that's only good for discussion purposes, because people would still change the lore to fit their concepts when wanted.

Never mind that some of it's kinda sketchy.

Magic's been dormat for a LONG LONG time, but around in some not noticable ways (think of it like magic might be alive now, but the general populace doesn't know of it, and would consider it myth).

Mutants didn't appear untill the 60's (according to lore) and the real powers didn't start untill Statesman and Recluse's little adventure before they were Statesman and Recluse, but we know there's been a few extraordinary people around before that, if Lady Grey is truely as old as people think/say she is.

Basically, I'd like to see them put down a few more "this is how it is" storylines to flesh it all out, rather than leave it so vague it leaves answers unanswered.

1. A world needs history. (Preferably history that makes sense.) So if you're trying to create a world that you can tell stories in, that people believe in and can find a place in it for their characters, yes. If you just want a gameboard to play on, I don't think there's much explanation or backstory needed for an 8x8 grid, except for chess scholars interested in the game's development over time. But my characters aren't just pawns.

2. Fundamentally, as in irreparably? No. The necessities of a persistent world (and the desire for new players to be able to experience old content) and the practical limitations of the dev team when it comes to consistently and comprehensively updating that old content and moving the storyline forward often cause problems, but I believe they can be overcome. It may require more attention and people-hours than Paragon Studios is willing to budget, however.

3. It's a very mixed bag. Parts of the advancing storyline no longer match up with legacy content - Crey, Malta, Nemesis, Oroborous, the true nature of the Rikti et al are an open secret (and lower-level but later-added arcs often treat them as such), the second Rikti invasion that Agent McQueen wants us to stop is already in full swing, parts of the city are demolished by Praetorian attacks during task forces and just fine as soon as you finish. Many meta-game issues that may not really require an explanation (power proliferation, the origin of powers, mission architect) have gotten ones that many players consider unsatisfactory or just stupid. That said, recent issues have also brought some very good writing that goes far beyond what we had back in the single-digits.

4. As someone else noted, we had plenty of issues when the meta-plot didn't move forward significantly, and yet none of the inconsistencies added by previous issues were addressed. Frustrated outbursts aside, I don't think it's realistic at this point - with the plot now moving full speed ahead - to expect any resources to be allocated in this area. The devs of this game (like most others) have almost always preferred adding new content to fixing what's wrong with the old.

1: Is the lore of this game significant enough to be a reason to subscribe?

Going to be somewhat pedantic and split the answer here.

The lore is not the reason to subscribe. For it to BE the reason to subscribe, it has to be a reasonably known property - for example, WoW had, what, a decade of Warcraft lore behind it. DCUO had, well, DC behind it. COH had... what? They made it up. So no, nobody's going to go "Oh, that Statesman game! Yes, I want it!"

Now, reason to STAY subscribed - or quit subscribing? Depends on the person. For me... yes. I love lore bits. It's why I keep pushing for something to happen in DA - it's like a big book with a bunch of empty pages. It's why I worked out the Kheldian backstory guide. And if they alter the story too much, or retcon horrifically, it would be reason for me to leave.

2: Is the lore of this game fundamentally broken? That is to say, contradictary, messy, and poorly written?

Fundamentally, no. There's a few general directions and overarching lines to follow.

Specifics, though, there are things that need clarifying and fixing - most notoriously any reference to the former Fifth Column. Those of us who have been around long enough (and this happened JUST as I started, so it wasn't a change for me) know about the retcon that went wrong, where any reference to the Fifth Column was removed. I *still* cringe seeing some of the heavy-handed "The former organization" statements (such as in the Kheldian arcs. You CAN say "Fifth Column.") Those could really use fixing - since it's a big "What?" to a newer player reading that.

3: Do you like the current direction the lore is taking?

Meh. I think the whole Well direction just - yeah. It's nice to flesh out Praetoria, I don't mind that, but making the Well this... odd... thing... yeah, it's awkward at best. I think that could have been handled much better.

4: Would you like the development team to spend a significant amount of time fixing all the old lore, even if that meant spending an issue not moving the game's story forward and just patching things up?

Doing just a "Lore fix" issue? No. That would be a waste of resources. Patching in corrections, yes. Better yet, expanding on some of the grey areas in the lore with issues (and new EATs, which can be great vehicles for exploring bits of lore more in depth if done right) while fixing sections of old lore and making sure they're all consistent would be a win all around.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Addendum: as Bill (and maybe others) hints at, it's not so much the big picture that's messed up as the details - the annoying, "oops we forgot to change that" little details. The things that the actual comic companies have editors for, and I admit that even so, they still mess up sometimes.

Besides outright mistakes and things that have been broken by changes to the game since - like McQueen's arc - there's the more subjective issue of things which some writer obviously thought was a great idea, but which fails my disbelief test. My go-to for this one is the official backstory for Architect Entertainment:

"Lord Recluse's favorite Mad Scientist and EvilCo, I mean, Crey have teamed up to create something that is not at all sinister! These VR entertainment centers work by uploading people to a virtual world that would never be turned into a deathtrap or brainwashing mechanism, even though the company literature acknowledges that the technology gives them read-write access to customers' brains!"
"Wow, that sounds awesome! I'm gonna go down to the nearest one and stick my head in the datastream right now! What could possibly go wrong?"

Are you kidding me? I'll say it once more: either whoever came up with this is ******* stupid, or they think that I am, or expect me to play my character(s) as if they are.

The result of stuff like this is that I can't ever ask or hope for more lore without being afraid they're going to serve up something incredibly awful that I'll just end up having to ignore anyway.