No Borg In Star Trek Sequel. Will it be Kahn?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-08-08 08:53 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
I didn't even know Borg was a rumour.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
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Quote:
While I enjoyed the "reboot/alternate timeline" aspect of the first movie, I did have a problem with Kirk basically going from cadet to captain in such a short period time, skipping all the steps between. |
Originally Posted by Irish Fury
Article.
I am glad to see they won't be using the Borg, but I am still undecided on whether or not I want to see this new timeline take on Khan's story. Could be interesting, but part of me wants to see an original story. What do you guys think? |
"Okay son, you saved the day - have your own starship! Just don't scratch the paint and have it back before dawn."
Honestly, I never watched all of The Original Series, but from what I understand, Khan popped up during the 5 Year Mission.
With the reboot, who is to say that the Enterprise was even sent on that 5 year mission?
If they're going to reboot the franchise to breathe new life into it, I would hope they went with original stories from this point forward.
It was nice having the Spock to Spock connection in the previous film to have some sort of bind to the regular universe but now that it's out of the way, let's get some new stories going forward.
And on a side/personal note, I really wished that they would've done a movie that incorporated characters from TNG, DS9 and Voyager - A Star Trek Universe film so-to-speak. It would've been hilarious to see some interaction between Neelix and Quark!
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It would've been interesting if it were the Borg. Events from First Contact and Star Trek: Enterprise could make it feasible that they could've been a threat.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I didn't even know Borg was a rumour.
|
And speaking of which, in Star Trek: Enterprise, and Voyager for that matter, there were organizations from the "future" that monitored and protected the timeline.
It irks me that the "reboot" movie even took place with that type of precedent in place.
*head explodes*
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Frankly I still believe the absolute worst thing the Star Trek reboot did was subject us to a bit of universe-shattering time travel nonsense just to be able to have an excuse to have 10 more minutes of screentime with Leonard Nimoy. I've loved Nimoy as Spock for decades, but honestly they could have had a very effective reboot without any time travel shenanigans at all. As a long time Star Trek fan I could have easily accepted a reboot without ANY of the original cast making an appearance. But I digress...
As far as them redoing a Khan movie I think it's kind of sad that JJ Abrams would make all that effort to change the entire Star Trek universe only to fall back on one of the most notable villains of the prime timeline. Does he really not have the balls to do some else semi-original at this point? Being such a Star Wars geek I'm almost surprised he's not giving us a "Deathstar" with a villain named Varth Dader. 
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Leonard Nimoy was in the last Trek movie? Really? I couldn't see him through all the lens flares and camera shakes. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Frankly I still believe the absolute worst thing the Star Trek reboot did was subject us to a bit of universe-shattering time travel nonsense just to be able to have an excuse to have 10 more minutes of screentime with Leonard Nimoy.
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As a big Star Trek fan, I felt the alternate time line approach was a good way to handle the reboot, and still respect the 40+ year history of the franchise. However, my brother who introduced me to Star Trek, felt the exact opposite. He felt like they just invalidated everything that had happened in Star Trek's history. All in how you look at it, I suppose.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Frankly I still believe the absolute worst thing the Star Trek reboot did was subject us to a bit of universe-shattering time travel nonsense just to be able to have an excuse to have 10 more minutes of screentime with Leonard Nimoy. I've loved Nimoy as Spock for decades, but honestly they could have had a very effective reboot without any time travel shenanigans at all. As a long time Star Trek fan I could have easily accepted a reboot without ANY of the original cast making an appearance.
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It is such a shame that that aweful movie delayed it.
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The only thing that bothered me about the reboot was the fact than in EVERY other instance in the entire Star Trek universe that the characters realize that the timeline has changed, they work for the rest of the episode (oe movie, whatever) to RESTORE the previous timeline.|
Originally Posted by Irish Fury
As a big Star Trek fan, I felt the alternate time line approach was a good way to handle the reboot, and still respect the 40+ year history of the franchise. However, my brother who introduced me to Star Trek, felt the exact opposite. He felt like they just invalidated everything that had happened in Star Trek's history. All in how you look at it, I suppose.
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This time, they just sort of look at each other, shrug and move on. Really?
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
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I have to disagree; nothing has ever been interesting when it was the Borg. They were the lamest villain group ever invented, and I say that on the boards of a video game that includes no fewer than three Cobra knock-offs (four if you count the Praetorian Police) and the Snakes. :)
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Originally Posted by SolarSentai
It would've been interesting if it were the Borg.
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Hear! Hear! I hated when he Borg became such a major villain in TNG.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
I have to disagree; nothing has ever been interesting when it was the Borg. They were the lamest villain group ever invented, and I say that on the boards of a video game that includes no fewer than three Cobra knock-offs (four if you count the Praetorian Police) and the Snakes.
 |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Yeah with reboots there's always the question of how you avoid "stepping on the toes" of the original.|
Originally Posted by Irish Fury
As a big Star Trek fan, I felt the alternate time line approach was a good way to handle the reboot, and still respect the 40+ year history of the franchise. However, my brother who introduced me to Star Trek, felt the exact opposite. He felt like they just invalidated everything that had happened in Star Trek's history. All in how you look at it, I suppose.
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The thing is that Star Trek is a big enough universe that I'm very sure with a minimum of effort a new set of stories could have been written that would have wedged themselves into the episodic nature of the original series without disrupting everything else. And as far as the "origin" stories go we had never really seen that anyway. Roddenberry never really covered how the original crew met in the first place - what was there to "ruin" by the time Abrams got a hold of it?
Bottomline I will always consider the time travel "crutch" Abrams used to explain his reboot as a very lazy and ultimately problematic method to handle the situation. He could have very easily come up with his own vision of Star Trek without having to completely rewrite the entire universe along with it. This is what you get when you have someone running Star Trek who never even liked it when he was growing up.
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Originally Posted by ZephyrWind
The only thing that bothered me about the reboot was the fact than in EVERY other instance in the entire Star Trek universe that the characters realize that the timeline has changed, they work for the rest of the episode (oe movie, whatever) to RESTORE the previous timeline.
This time, they just sort of look at each other, shrug and move on. Really? |
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That's a great point. While I did enjoy the reboot, a true prequel would have been preferable. As you pointed out above, new stories could have been told without messing with continuity.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
The thing is that Star Trek is a big enough universe that I'm very sure with a minimum of effort a new set of stories could have been written that would have wedged themselves into the episodic nature of the original series without disrupting everything else. And as far as the "origin" stories go we had never really seen that anyway. Roddenberry never really covered how the original crew met in the first place - what was there to "ruin" by the time Abrams got a hold of it?
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
I have to disagree; nothing has ever been interesting when it was the Borg. They were the lamest villain group ever invented, and I say that on the boards of a video game that includes no fewer than three Cobra knock-offs (four if you count the Praetorian Police) and the Snakes.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Hear! Hear! I hated when he Borg became such a major villain in TNG.
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Then, Voyager comes along and they become more of a nuisance than anything else.
Would they have been overpowered for a TOS setting? Probably... but still, (as with anything) if it was done correctly, it could've been awesome
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I enjoyed the movie as an action flick, but not as a Star Trek movie. Yes, it was a reboot of the story, but you can't just throw out common science terms like they don't mean anything and you can make up your own science behind them. I think that when Star Trek first came out, you could probably have gotten away with something like "A supernova is threatening half the galaxy," but not today. I think most Trekkies know that that wouldn't happen, and that if it could, a black hole wouldn't stop it (after all, there are a decent amount of black holes out there, wouldn't one of them have stopped it?).|
Originally Posted by Irish Fury
That's a great point. While I did enjoy the reboot, a true prequel would have been preferable. As you pointed out above, new stories could have been told without messing with continuity.
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Doing a true prequel showing a logical reason for this staff all coming together on the same ship and working together in a coherent chain of command would have been better. I think that most trek fans would have been okay with fitting stories in between where the episodes and movies took place. Better that than having to Hamfist everything together and explain horribly how the main cast of characters got their positions on the ship. "You! Guy right out of the academy! The guy 249th in the chain of command. Yeah you! Take over, you're the captain if I should die." Really? REALLY? That's the best you could do?
But yeah, glad that the Borg aren't the enemy in the new movie. If you've got a reboot of a universe, make some previous friends enemies, and enemies friends. Have the Bajorans take over the Cardassians, or something. Klingons and the Federation make peace much earlier. Have the Ferengi try to acquire the Federation in some sort of trade deal. There's plenty of lore out there that you could change just slightly to make for a completely different universe.
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Quote:
They could have blown up the entire galaxy and it still wouldn't have made them any more interesting.
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Originally Posted by SolarSentai
In TNG the Borg were pretty badass. 1 cube tore through how many starships in that initial battle? Yea... exactly.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Sadly, it's the nature of the beast. Yes, it would have made a lot more sense, if they were going to play it that way, to document James T. Kirk's entire career from (PANCAKE)(PANCAKE)(PANCAKE)(PANCAKE)(PANCAKE)(PANC AKE)(PANCAKE)(PANCAKE) midshipman to war hero to youngest-ever-to-date starship captain - but to the General Public, for whom - let's be honest with ourselves - such films are made and not The Fandom, that would have been entirely too much faff. John Q. Public wants to see Captain Kirk of the starship Enterprise, and he's not going to be up for sitting through Mr. Midshipman Kirk, Lieutenant Kirk, Kirk and the Hotspur, Kirk During the Crisis, and Kirk and the Atropos just to get there.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Really? REALLY? That's the best you could do?
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Mind you, what this reveals is that the entire "start at the beginning" strategy was flawed and should've been discarded as unfeasible, rather than what they did instead to make it fit into their expectations of the public's patience for such things - but that's life in the big city.
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Kidding!
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Quote:
I still chock most of this up to Abrams thinking he can cookie-cutter his love for Star Wars and make that kind of science-lite space-cowboy movie work for Star Trek.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I enjoyed the movie as an action flick, but not as a Star Trek movie. Yes, it was a reboot of the story, but you can't just throw out common science terms like they don't mean anything and you can make up your own science behind them. I think that when Star Trek first came out, you could probably have gotten away with something like "A supernova is threatening half the galaxy," but not today. I think most Trekkies know that that wouldn't happen, and that if it could, a black hole wouldn't stop it (after all, there are a decent amount of black holes out there, wouldn't one of them have stopped it?).
Doing a true prequel showing a logical reason for this staff all coming together on the same ship and working together in a coherent chain of command would have been better. I think that most trek fans would have been okay with fitting stories in between where the episodes and movies took place. Better that than having to Hamfist everything together and explain horribly how the main cast of characters got their positions on the ship. "You! Guy right out of the academy! The guy 249th in the chain of command. Yeah you! Take over, you're the captain if I should die." Really? REALLY? That's the best you could do? |
Again I have nothing against Abrams' ability to make space-based action films that make lots of money at the box office. I just contend (much like you) that what we are getting from him are not Star Trek movies in the strictest sense. The last one was more like Star Trek by way of Armageddon.
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This made me LOL.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Have the Ferengi try to acquire the Federation in some sort of trade deal.
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And for that... I think these would apply:
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Rule of Acquisition 242: More is good ... all is better.
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I'd rather it be Futurama's V-GINY myself. |
Originally Posted by mousedroid
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Kidding! |
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Oh, I get that, I really do. I wouldn't want to sit through that either. In that case, where I a paid movie script writer, I'd ask myself what I could do to have those skips without completely negating the chain of command. I'm sure there are ways. Starting at the true beginning was most definitely not the way to really go, I'll agree with you there. But if that was your course of action, at least string the rest of it together with at least some sense.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Sadly, it's the nature of the beast. Yes, it would have made a lot more sense, if they were going to play it that way, to document James T. Kirk's entire career from (PANCAKE)(PANCAKE)(PANCAKE)(PANCAKE)(PANCAKE)(PANC AKE)(PANCAKE)(PANCAKE) midshipman to war hero to youngest-ever-to-date starship captain - but to the General Public, for whom - let's be honest with ourselves - such films are made and not The Fandom, that would have been entirely too much faff. John Q. Public wants to see Captain Kirk of the starship Enterprise, and he's not going to be up for sitting through Mr. Midshipman Kirk, Lieutenant Kirk, Kirk and the Hotspur, Kirk During the Crisis, and Kirk and the Atropos just to get there.
Mind you, what this reveals is that the entire "start at the beginning" strategy was flawed and should've been discarded as unfeasible, rather than what they did instead to make it fit into their expectations of the public's patience for such things - but that's life in the big city. |
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
No contest, I'd much rather see an original story for the next movie. They've gone through all this trouble to set up a new universe to breathe new life into the franchise and introduce Star Trek to a new generation, so why would they go back and rehash the old stories? I mean, if I want to watch Khan in action, then I'm going to break out my DVDs and watch the original Space Seed or Wrath of Khan. I don't want to see some watered-down, Star-Warsey remake, I want the real thing. It'd be much better if they came up with a new story to tell rather than try to shoehorn one of the old ones into a remake.|
Originally Posted by Irish Fury
Article.
I am glad to see they won't be using the Borg, but I am still undecided on whether or not I want to see this new timeline take on Khan's story. Could be interesting, but part of me wants to see an original story. What do you guys think? |
edit: Also, the first JJTrek was more or less a WoK remake anyway. Except, you know, worse.
Goodbye, I guess.
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I definitely want to see an original story. Wrath of Kahn is and forever will be the pinnacle of Star Trek. It needs to be left alone.
It's an all new timeline where Kirk is Captain of the Enterprise five years ahead of schedule. He is still the youngest Captain, but now he's perhaps the most inexperienced Captain.
Also: Captain Pike has not gone to Planet Talos, Kirk has not encountered that vampire cloud while serving on the Farragut thus he wont recognize it later as Captain of the Enterprise. It's also five years too early to find Khan's sleeper ship in space, and it is five years too early for things like the Doomsday Machine to appear or for the Romulans to have developed the cloaking device and sent the lone Bird of Prey to test it. Also Kirk will not serve on the ship with his old pal Finnigan and have to file a report for his failure to close a critical valve before going to warp thus the ship would have been endangered had Kirk not caught it. So there goes Kirk's future court martial/frameup by Finnigan. Hm, does this also mean that Kirk was not around to witness Kodos' the Executioner in action?
So basically, in a nutshell everything has changed now for Kirk. Time for all new adventures.
As for Khan......ok honestly now, WHO could possibly play Khan with the same charisma, magnetism and power that Ricardo Montalbon conveyed?
As to fixing the timeline, well they have not yet learned of the Guardian of Forever, nor accidentally discovered the "Slingshot effect" of using a sun or black hole to slingshot around to hit timewarp speeds. (to this day I've never thoguht that method would work anyway but oh well), nor have they met any of the Q Continuum.
So to fix the timeline.....can the Guardian of Forever lock onto Spock-Prime's timeline so that they can stop Nero from going back in time in the first place? This should be the easiest solution. The other solution would be to timewarp back before Nero arrives and blow him out of space as he emerges from the timewarp, but that could still alter things since George Kirk should still live but will have witnessed time travel, alternate futures, etc etc. So would that "Fix" the timeline or only "patch" the timeline but still leave some changes? The ultimate solution is to get a member of the Q to snap their fingers and restore the timeline.
Article.
I am glad to see they won't be using the Borg, but I am still undecided on whether or not I want to see this new timeline take on Khan's story. Could be interesting, but part of me wants to see an original story. What do you guys think?