Discussion: Paragon Rewards program details

There is one other thing that bugs me too...

If you bought a boxed set of the game, you'll get 1 Token.
What about the people who bought multiple boxes? they only get 1 token.

So the fact that this rewards the same no matter how much you have spend, is rubbing the people who bought multiple boxes the wrong way too. They paid more money to get: Good vs Evil, AE, Collector's Edition's, Mac Version, Going Rogue and so on, yet get the same as people who only bought Going Rogue.. makes no sense to me.

They also got to experience that content before the people who didn't buy those sets AND got a month of game time included with that purchase.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

The game has been running for more than seven years; launch was in late April of 2004. For nearly all of that time (with a couple of unintentional lapses) I've been a subscriber. I've bought every box set and most every Booster Pack.

If I were given full credit, under the new system, for all of the money I've spent on the game, I'd have something like 90 reward tokens, instead of the 36 I have now. Is that unfair? I suppose it is on its face, but I don't feel that way. See, if everyone like me had been given 90 tokens, then either we'd have turned the current Rewards system into a joke (~50 tokens at Freedom's launch to spend on nothing but consumables), or the entire Rewards system would have to be redesigned with ~90 tokens as the new Top Tier.

And if 90, instead of 35-39, were the new Top Tier, the Rewards system would be awfully intimidating for new players, much more intimidating than it is now. The bottom line, for people like me, is that we got what we paid for at the time. By definition, we can't have been deprived of something that didn't exist. And if some deep-pocketed new player wants to lay down the ~$500 it would take to equal my Reward Token tally in one go, then the game I've spent so much time supporting can only benefit.

It's in my interest that the game continues to thrive. Money is what tends to decide whether businesses thrive. I understand people's reservations about certain aspects of the new business model, but as long as the devs aren't handing out obviously massive mechanical advantages in return for $$$, it should work out just fine -- and maybe much more than fine.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

It's for every 12 months subscribed. Time from a box purchase, time card or referral counts towards that time.

News to me. I know that about 2 years ago, they reworked the Vet Reward program because it wasn't awarding things on time, and as part of that, some people got a few extra rewards that they didn't actually earn (most I ever heard of was 3). But you shouldn't see anybody who left 5 years ago with all 7 yearly badges.

In my honest opinion, life in general is unfair to people who don't have enough money. This game is much more fair than most in rewarding its players, both past and present.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

According to the old reward system, yes. But this is the new system.

That's why i have seen people who have been gone for 5 years, have the 7 year vet badge?
And again, you are referring to the old system. These issues i have, are not with the old reward program, they are with the system that came out with i21.

I'm glad that you like the game being turned into real life. Myself, and several other i talked to, dislike this new 'reward' system.

Yes, exactly. It's not a Vet Reward system anymore; it's a system of perks you get for buying stuff, specifically $15 worth of stuff. The new Reward Tokens are only related to time spent because a month's subscription happens to cost the same $15.

So with that in mind, I have to wonder whether you're just caught up in the wrong terminology (understandable), or whether you do, in fact, simply object to Paragon/NCSoft selling anything at all. The perks you get under the Paragon Reward system are no different, in principle, from the perks you might've gotten from a Booster Pack or an Expansion, in the past -- or from the various items available now on the Paragon Market.

Do you think all of the above perks are unfair because they're bought? Or are you just annoyed that the old Vet perks in particular can now be bought? If the latter, why discriminate?

Sounds like a bug.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

That issue what i said "According to the old system" has NOTHING to do with what you are listing. It's regarding the new 1 year vet badges.
Maybe you are confused regarding this, since we have the Reward Tokens, and the 1 Year Veteran Badges. I don't see those Tokens as Veteran Reward Tokens, and i went in detail in previous posts why it's name is misleading.

I'm Wondering how they now decide the 1 year mark for players. Is it only for people who pay, and every 12 months paid they get the yearly badge? Even though it could be that they pay a month, go Premuim for a month, pay a month and so on. So, according to the time paid, he's a 1 year vet, but in all actuality, he's a 2 year vet.

There is nowhere where it is listed how they count this.

That's just a very round-about way of saying exactly what I said: the yearly veteran badges are awarded for every 12 months you've subscribed. Going by the NEW terminology, it's for every 12 months (total, not concurrent) of VIP status. VIP status is gained by paying your subscription fee, using a time card, or using the free month from a box purchase.

The badges should NOT be awarding up-front, so no, you should NOT be seeing people who were gone for 5 years with all 7 yearly badges. As Obitus said, if that is happening, then it's a bug.

Are you by any chance confusing the yearly badges (1 Year Veteran, 2 Year Veteran, ... , 7 Year Veteran) with the ANNIVERSARY badges (Celebrant, Reveler, Merrymaker, Entertainer, Jubilant, Exultant, Lucky)? The latter are awarded specifically for logging in during the month of May in any given year.

The old system folded into the new system. Everything I said in the quoted bit you made this reply to was valid pre-Freedom and is still valid today.

(Well, I guess the referral time has gone away and been replaced with a bonus Paragon Point stipend...)

I like this game doing what it takes to make a profit while simultaneously making the game better for everyone who plays. I've been willing to buy the occasional booster pack here or there in the past, which has funded the extra development. Some people haven't been willing to make extra purchases, but they're still benefiting from my doing so, and I'm okay with that.

Going to this hybrid subscription/microtransaction model means the game will stay profitable longer and continue to grow, rather than to start fading away. I get more value for the $15 monthly fee I continue to pay than I did prior to CoH Freedom AND I have more choices for ways to spend an additional $5 or $10 per month to get extra stuff. You have those same options, and are more than welcome to ignore them if you don't want to spend that extra money. You're even welcome to stop paying your subscription altogether and keep playing with around 80% of the things currently available in the game.

At the same time, the developers need to reward the people who are using the store heavily just as much as those who subscribe consistently. That's why the Veteran Rewards program had to evolve into the Paragon Rewards program--you're now rewarded for any real world money you spend on the game, whether it's on your subscription or on microtransaction points. People have been asking for that to happen ever since booster packs were first introduced. I'm sorry you don't like it, but I would bet heavily against that opinion belonging to the majority of players.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Meaning they should rename the yearly awarded badge to 1 year VIP, 2 Year VIp and so forth. As i stated before. If someone plays for two years, but half the time he's premium, he's still a 2 year Veteran of the game.

I know the difference between 'Veteran' and 'Event' badges, thank you very much.




I never said i was against the store. I said i was against the fact that people can throw a bunch of money at the game, and get rewarded immediately for it, making it unfair. As stated, i was fine with waiting on my Veteran rewards, because we all had to. Now some rich kid comes in, and throws $500 at the game the 1st day he plays it, and he has more rewards than someone who can't throw that amount of cash at the game, but who's been playing for 2 or 3 years. It would be more fair for all if they withheld the tokens and gave them monthly, or even two a month if you did spend a bunch of cash or bought a full year worth of game time.

Definitely looks like a bug. My secondary account (which was created nearly 7 years ago) still only has the 5 Year Veteran badge, which matches up with the fact that it has now been subscribed for a little over 63 months total. And yes, I've bought enough Paragon Points to make the account a Tier 9 VIP, so that's not where the discrepancy is coming from.

As I stated, many people felt it was unfair when that wasn't the case. Whether you're spending your money on subscriptions or buying bonuses from the store, you're still supporting the game, and they've acknowledged a 1:1 ratio on that support--$15 on either a month of subscription or Paragon Points will earn you a Paragon Reward Token (note: larger purchases discount this a bit; a 12 month subscription costs about $12 per month, and a $100 Paragon Point purchase earns you 8 tokens instead of 6 1/3).

You're still welcome to wait for your tokens. In fact, you'll get them faster NOW, since they're rewarded monthly instead of tri-monthly. And once they fix the bug that's currently preventing it, getting a multi-month subscription will give you all your Paragon Reward Tokens up front, so you'll get rewarded for your purchase immediately instead of having to wait.

I fail to see how this is unfair to anyone. If you spend extra money in the store, you'll get the same rewards at the same rate as everyone else who spends money in the store. If you don't want to spend extra money, then you'll still earn those rewards for your subscription alone faster than ever before. It's entirely win-win, for both the players AND the developers.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

I was addressing your obvious disappointment about the Paragon Rewards' system. You say it's unfair that anyone with money can toss it at the game and get the equivalent of your Vet status, even surpass it. So I say, maybe you'll feel better about it if you don't think of it as a Vet program anymore. Because it isn't, per se.

In reading subsequent posts, it's become clear that you are, in fact, annoyed with any purchased perk -- which is certainly your right, and even understandable to a degree given that games are generally based on parity -- but it kinda ends the conversation before it starts.

As for the rest, Chad answered all of it better than I could.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

That's what the Michigan man said too about him being on welfare and foodstamps while he won about $100mill a year earlier. :P

Everyone has their own opinion, you have your opinion, i have mine. I see it from both views, i hope you could see it too.

In my opinion, it unfair to people who have been waiting years for a certain veteran reward power, people who are still waiting on a certain veteran reward power, and don't have the cash to throw at the game like others do.

I understand that when people throw money at the game they should be rewarded, but instead of giving everything up front, give in moderation.
If you buy a year worth's of game time, give them 2 tokens a month. I'm ok with that. If you pay per month, and drop a $100 on the market to get Paragon Points, give them 2 tokens per month till the 'extra' tokens are all given. I'm ok with that too.

But to give all upfront, and basically reach VIP T9 in one day, is a slap in the face for people who have been playing years, and have been, or are still, patiently waiting, like everyone else, to get their veteran rewards.

It's no longer required to "patiently wait" the way it was in the past. And frankly, it shouldn't matter whether someone spent $100 over the course of a year or in one day--they should be rewarded equally.

I'm not saying it doesn't suck to lack disposable income. My hours just got cut at work right after I made that purchase on my second account, so I couldn't afford to buy more Paragon Points right now even if I desperately wanted them to purchase something. I kind of wish I could rewind the clock and NOT make that purchase, so I can have a better safety net between paying my bills this month and my next paycheck. But that doesn't mean I begrudge those who CAN make extraneous purchases... I'm just a little jealous of them.

I can absolutely see "the issue" from both sides, as you inquired... but that doesn't mean both sides have valid arguments. Your side has lost nothing and is now gaining rewards a little over three times faster than before (one reward per month, plus an extra every 12 months); you also have the option to make extra purchases and gain those rewards even faster. Your opposition has the same options, but chooses to exercise them both.

You have not been singled out and told that you're not receiving the same treatment as anyone else in your situation. As has been said, the new Paragon Rewards program rewards players for anything they do to fund the game. The duration over which you spread that expenditure no longer matters.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

You seem to be working under a misconception here, Dark... Those of us who have annual subscriptions only get one token a month, just like people who pay their subs a month at a time.

Yes, the devs and community staff did originally tell us (several times and in no uncertain terms-) that we'd get all of our tokens up-front once the new system went live... But that's not how it worked out. Right before the release they changed their story completely. We're now getting the things doled out one per month, no matter how far ahead we've paid.

The only way to get a pile of tokens at once is to buy a bucket-load of "points" for the market. You can't do it by paying for an annual or other multi-month subscription.

Life is unfair to people who don't have money to throw away and rewards the rich. This is just a fact of business and you can't base your business model after not allowing people with more money to pour more into your business. As much as you don't like it the idea, the focus of any business (including CoH) is to make money.

I really don't care if someone who started yesterday has all the same stuff as I do. If it gives paragon studios the money to keep the game going and improving upon it, I'm all for it.

Let people spend all the money they want on CoH it will only help all of us in the long run.

Actually, they've said that there's a bug that's keeping them from giving out the Reward Tokens up front, and that they still intend to do so once they've figured out a solution.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Whenever this topic came up prior to Freedom, it was generally expressed by a majority of players who were subscribed the longest and already had them that it wasn't considered especially unfair to give players who had not subscribed for as long a way to gain the rewards at an accelerated pace than we did.

And I say "we" because I've been subscribed for nearly the entire duration of the game. I don't feel giving people a way to get to tier 9 faster than years is unfair to those people who have been subscribed longer. No one will have taken significantly longer to get to the top of the reward tree than me, and I don't consider it a slap in the face that no one else ever will take that long.

To be honest, I'll believe a fix is in the works when I see it go live. <_<

I'm not certain it is intentional.

The whole "reward" system (including things like points) seems to be a bit buggier than meant.

Some people reported getting Reward Tokens on their billing date in September. Some reported not getting them. Of those reporting not getting them, I know two reported starting September with an extra reward token (myself being one). I do not know about the others reporting not getting a token.

So it seems we need to be diligent and wait out the month to see if it gets ironed out.

Yeah it seems most of i21 is quite buggy.. which as usual begs to question why they launch stuff prematurely, all of this -could- most likely have been tested more properly since they -knew- that the Store was buggy as well even before they moved it to the live server for the forced "open beta"-session :P

But oh well, i suppose i'll soon join the ones who just can't be bothered to care anymore as long as i get to play.. I just think it's a bit of a shame that there's always rather large problems left when they send updates to live..

MMOs getting away with the most bug ridden code to ever be sold to customers. No other type of game company would/could get away with this type of nonsense. I have no idea how MMO game companys get away with this stuff but if console game companys tried this they would be laughed off the system and forced into bankruptcy.

Because if any company running a MMO had to live up to the level of bug-free experience you wanted, then updates would happen only once a year (and you'd be screaming for more content), OR, you'd be paying $50 a month for the bug-free experience.

There's a reason why PhotoShop costs over 700 bucks.

Cheap, lots of content, bug-free: Pick two; because all three are not possible.