scrapper claws vs brute claws

I have seen some people on this forum talking about how much better claws is on brutes than it is on scrappers. I took it to Mids, and I really have no idea where that is coming from. Comparing the powers directly, scrappers do more damage, take less endurance, recharge faster, and in some cases animate faster.

The only pro for brute claws that I could find was that more attacks do defense debuff, but I really don't care about defense debuff because I will not have issues hitting anyone.

So can someone try to explain why the perception is there that brute claws are better than scrapper claws? Especially when paired with something like /SR where the lower scrapper resistance hard cap doesn't come into play?

Thanks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mids does not factor in fury, so that would be why you're confused.

You are right, I had forgotten about fury. But don't scrappers also get a chance to crit? I'm not sure how much extra damage you should factor it for that. Here's a chart with 70%fury for the brute damage. Does anyone know why Follow Up is such a longer animation time on a brute?

End Recharge Damage Cast Time

Strike (S) 4.16 3.2s 74.3
Strike (B) 5.49 4.8s 124

Slash (S) 5.49 4.8s 90.8
Slash (B) 6.82 6.4s 148.1

Spin (S) 9.15 9.2s 108.7
Spin (B) 13.1 14s 189.2

FU (S) 7.8 12s 55.1 .83
FU (B) 7.8 12s 80.1 2.64

Focus (S) 6.82 6.4s 95.7
Focus (B) 8.15 8s 151.1

Eviscerate(S) 8.87 8.87s 143.2
Eviscerate(B) 11.5 12s 218.3

Shockwave (S) 11.6 12.1s 72.3
Shockwave (B) 13.5 14.4s 113.1

So it seems like brutes pay an endurance cost and recharge cost for the higher damage. If paired with something like /SR, it seems like I should focus on recharge to make up for it, after I get soft cap. Does that sound right?

Thanks.

Follow-Up's animation time is incorrect in Mids. It is actually the same as a Scrapper's.

Scrapper crits add an average of 10% damage when fighting anything higher than a minion.

I posted in a Claws Brute vs Scrapper discussion on this forum recently. I did the math which shows how Brutes come out ahead but I did not include Scrapper crits. Brutes should still win, at least barely.

The most important thing when examining attacks is damage per animation time. Be sure to turn on Arcanatime in Mids first. You can view the base DPA for attacks in the powerset comparison window, but this does not include enhancements or buffs. A side-by-side comparison can be made with completed builds if you go to the power graph window for each build.

Since nobody else has mentioned it, as I am the only person who prefers scrappers to brutes, I shall point out that follow up for scrappers is approximately thrice as effective as it is for brutes. In addition to this already oceanically salient point, scrapper spin's recharge advantage is more than merely significant in applications where you can be sure that its target cap will be saturated even without considering its heightened ability to apply procs. To carve the stately wiener onto this David of an argument, the scrapper archetype icon is both yellow and swooshy, thus indescribably more liable to excite one's passions than the grey fist.

Brutes end up wining because they get a higher dmg but at the cost of lower rech. But the thing is, with the recharge is easily shorted quite a bit because of +Rech from sets and enhancements.

For example, With 3 SOs spin gets down to 3.47 and 5.28 rech for a scrapper and brute respectively. But the cast time is still 2.64
So the scrapper can fire their spin off every 6.11 seconds and the brute every 7.92 seconds that's 1.81 seconds faster some attacks animate slower than that...with very low and realistic +rech.

On a brute, in the high end, you want a slow attack that does higher dmg. Because it will become a fast attack that does epic dmg. But a fast attack with low dmg STAYS a fast attack with low dmg due to cast times. Well, actually the mid ground is where you want to be (for example on SS haymaker is a better attack than KoB) and claws is there for all of their attacks...the perfect spot.

A few things to take note of.
Scrapper crits are factored in and averaged by default on mids, fury isnt

FU's cast time is ****** up in mids, its actually the same for brutes and scrappers.

To factor in arcanatime go to option>configuration>effects & math> the bottom left corner the box that says "Use arcanatime for animation times" check it. You will find animation times go up about 0.1 seconds or so.

Wow, this kinda stinks.
I've been investing my time and energy into a Claws/Elec Scrapper for a little while. I was totally fine with gimping my secondary in return for having higher damage, but now I find I should have been a brute and had my cake and ate it too?

Blaah... I'm not fond of starting over, but there's a 2xp weekend coming at least.
Think it's worth rerolling?

No, it isn't worth rerolling. I have a claws/elec scrapper who can pretty much do anything you'd hope such a character could do. The fact that spin's recharge is so much better for scrappers made it a breeze to achieve around 38% s/l defense as well as the follow up -> spin -> focus attack chain without any purples or other great expense. That simply isn't going to happen on a claws/elec brute.

So as mighty as the scrapped lovers "claim" their claws to be, how's the faceplanting while your brute counterpart is continuing the fight? Criticals won't help survival in ambushes at +4/x8.

How exactly do you think s/l enemies are going to kill a scrapper who is chugging ambush farm inspirations while level shifted to 51?

Sure, as long as you aren't too worried about your aoe.

Eh, lightning field scales with fury, but can not crit. Thats why damage auras are so much better on brutes. Also, while the recharge at base may be slightly better for scrappers, fury fueled spin is a wonderful thing. There is also the higher resistance and HP which matters a ton of /elec. Both in energy damage at base (90% on SOs) and with powersurge (90% everything but psi and toxic i think? on SOs) and with energize's +regen. Brutes have higher HP caps, and HP base, so energize will regenerate more HP (same %, but just higher actual numbers) with energize going then a scrapper would with the same power.

Claws/elec is just so much better on a brute due to the above reasons.

Lightning field is also buffed by follow up. Spin recharge is indeed slightly better for scrappers, if 66% is slight. Power surge? Heh. As ever with brutes vs scrappers, it's mitigation vs damage. Scrapper claws/elec does better damage. Magical thinking has little impact on the truth of this.

The base damage of all the brute claws attacks is greater -- because of the longer recharge times

But the animation times are all the same.

Thus the Brute is compensated for the fury nerf once they get enough recharge to make the slower recharge times less important (which is pretty easy, basically once you can frankenslot)

In practice Brute Spin > Scrapper Spin -- even with the slower recharge.

I bet the big scrapper claws adherants would love to have Brute Claws on their scrappers. That would be a truly awesome set.

Tell me what your aoe chain would be on an ambush farming claws/elec brute. I can tell you what it won't be: followup -> spin -> focus. You could swap out focus for eviscerate or you could intermittently insert dark oblit and whatever else is recharged when that isn't. Both of those options are inferior to the easily attainable scrapper chain, if you consider that the scrapper can just as easily insert fireball instead of focus half the time. I find that fireball is unnecessary - spin, followup and lightning field really need no assistance in ticket capping rapidly. Survivability is a non issue, as is build cost. So yes, you could spend more to do nearly as well with a claws/elec brute and also be slightly better at AV soloing maybe? Who really cares about that anymore?