Good point, AshWind, this is a silly thing to bicker over. I'd tell that one guy not to reroll his scrapper unless he wanted a taunt aura as my final comment along those lines.
I've never had problems running fire farms on my fire scrapper or energy farms on my elec scrapper, I'll also note. S/l defense takes care of any issues you'd have. For that matter I'm pretty sure my elec scrapper could run fire farms and my fire scrapper could run energy farms. All of them are great on plain old s/l farms though so why not just run those when the agricultural mood takes you?
Quote:
Your math proved that you don't know what you're talking about. Both Claws AND Elec are better on Brutes. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
"My math" was demonstrating that your claim of infinite brute superiority was ludicrous, Arbegla. You've corroborated my assertion, not disproven it. Speaking of the damage cap, how much additional buffing does it take the brute to get there? How much for the scrapper? Hmm...
The funny thing is, I never said scrapper spin hit harder than brute spin. I said it was better. It is. At any level of recharge, it is back in 66% of the time it takes for brute spin to get back. At the recharge cap, this makes it a full second faster still. With less recharge, the gap is even wider. Having high recharge is not "better" because it can be reduced. That's a completely outlandish argument. That is equivalent to saying that hail of bullets is better than rain of arrows because it has a 120 second recharge and ~14% higher damage. I notice you're also being extremely charitable to the brute on the fury number. Funny, but what I've heard brute players saying in other situations is that 65-70% fury is the new norm. Or does the average sustainable fury depend on whether you're trying to crap on scrappers or claim that scrapper is op and brute need buff? Seems as though it might. Back to you, Deus! Funny thing I just noticed while looking at city of data. Spin seems actually to get the most pronounced damage increase for brutes - other powers are anywhere from comparable, so a 13% increase, to not increased at all. All of them, on the other hand, have higher recharge, with the exception of followup. Followup, a power which actually has a reduced base damage for brutes compared to scrappers, and which also is less beneficial to them. I'm actually not convinced that the brute numbers are going to look very good at all! Course we could still work it all out if you want to? |
Spin is better on Brutes, the only thing better is the recharge time for Scrappers and that doesn't make the entire power better. Is Spin the only AoE you're going to use? How are you going to keep 10 enemies in range of Spin without a taunt aura?
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Oh me oh my, I just said I'd quit posting in this thread, but when you make it this easy...
Yes, actually, spin is the only aoe you should have to use with any regularity on a claws/elec. It is a stellar power. Shockwave is the runner up and it is best applied in situations where you're already over the target cap so it doesn't matter if you knock ten of them away. Obviously if you need breathing room with less targets it's also great. Eviscerate is a great way to demonstrate that you love cool animations and are totally relaxed about accomplishing things. Extra-claws aoes demonstrate that you are either 100% focused on farming or fail to comprehend the impact of redraw on your damage.
This may be hard to follow so I'll type it slowly. Brute spin may not be good enough all by itself. Scrapper spin is. Scrapper claws/elec does not need additional aoes to supplement spin. That's why scrapper claws/elec is better. Resume normal speed.
How indeed does one keep ten foes within range of a pbaoe without a taunt aura! A question that has tantalized man throughout the ages. Before brutes existed, it was known to be impossible to damage multiple enemies at once. Rumors persisted, however, of the legendary Spinsquatch, a creature capable of using naught but its movement skills to corral plenty of targets to feed its low recharge scrapper aoes. Some say it still exists... maybe it's right behind you!!!
Quote:
While its not typical for many builds, extra AoEs will do more damage than having less - redraw or otherwise.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Extra-claws aoes demonstrate that you are either 100% focused on farming or fail to comprehend the impact of redraw on your damage.
|
The ability to attack 10 to 16 targets with a TAoE easily overcomes a tiny bit of redraw.
Redraw is only really a concern with your ST attack chain, as gaps in your chain lead to a decrease of DPS.
But don't take my word for it, feel free to grab E-fences and Ball Lightning and then run several ITFs with hero stats running and then calculate your overall damage output.
Or better yet, PM BillZ.. so he can smack some claws/ intelligence into you.
Unless your just going to try to tell him hes also wrong, due to well, him just being wrong.
You can't just spam spin. or else you will be doing NOTHING while spin is recharging. If you want to play an claw/elec and just spam spin (or better yet, use SINGLE TARGET attacks to supplement your AOE attack chain) then by all means, you do that. In the mean time, i'll be AoEing thing down like a chainsaw on my brute, and you can focus on whittling things down one by one (or rather, one by 10 by one..?)
Lets take things a step further shall we, and actually compare builds side by side. See, here is my elec/claws proposed level 50 build, complete with Musculature Alpha boost. Mainly cuz i haven't decided on the other incarnate slots, and mainly cuz hes only currently level 28, but regardless, here he is:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Reign of Pain: Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Electric Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Villain Profile:
------------
Level 1: Swipe C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 1: Charged Armor TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(40), TtmC'tng-EndRdx/Rchg(42), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), TtmC'tng-ResDam(42), TtmC'tng-EndRdx(43)
Level 2: Slash Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(3), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Achilles-ResDeb%(5)
Level 4: Conductive Shield TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam(37), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(37), TtmC'tng-EndRdx/Rchg(37), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39), TtmC'tng-EndRdx(39)
Level 6: Spin Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(15), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(17), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Oblit-%Dam(23)
Level 8: Follow Up Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(9), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Hectmb-Dam%(11), GSFC-Build%(13)
Level 10: Static Shield RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-EndRdx(39), RctvArm-ResDam(40), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 12: Combat Jumping LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Super Jump Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Grounded S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 18: Focus Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(19), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Decim-Build%(21)
Level 20: Lightning Reflexes Run-I(A)
Level 22: Lightning Field Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(25), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), Sciroc-Dam%(27)
Level 24: Hasten RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(34), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 26: Eviscerate Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Oblit-%Dam(31)
Level 28: Energize Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(31), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(33), Dct'dW-Heal(33), Dct'dW-Rchg(33)
Level 30: Taunt Zinger-Dam%(A)
Level 32: Shockwave Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(34), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Dam%(36)
Level 35: Power Sink Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(43), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(43), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(46), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(46)
Level 38: Power Surge RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(A), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(46), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48), RctvArm-ResDam(48)
Level 41: Boxing Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A)
Level 44: Tough RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam(45), RctvArm-EndRdx(45)
Level 47: Superior Conditioning EndMod-I(A)
Level 49: Physical Perfection RgnTis-Regen+(A)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Musculature Total Radial Revamp
------------
Level 1: Brawl Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(50), Mrcl-Rcvry+(50)
Level 2: Stamina P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(48), P'Shift-EndMod(50)
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Now, lets take his exact build, and turn it into a scrapper instead of a brute. Lets see how that stacks up:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Comparing damage, resistance, and regen values the brute is ahead in just about every way.
So even using mids, with identical builds, the brute is ahead. You really want to try again?
Quote:
If you have Spin enhanced with at least 90% recharge, have lightning reflexes, and any decent amount of +recharge in your build (even just the the top tier spiritual alpha slot) then Brute spin + ED capped damage enhancement + double stacked FU + 70% fury does more DPS than Scrapper spin + ED capped damage enhancement + double stacked FU. Look it up on Mids if you don't believe me but it's true.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
This may be hard to follow so I'll type it slowly. Brute spin may not be good enough all by itself. Scrapper spin is. Scrapper claws/elec does not need additional aoes to supplement spin. That's why scrapper claws/elec is better. Resume normal speed. |
That being said damage auras also do much more damage on a brute due to fury (because they cannot crit) and the brute will just be more survivable in general (your argument about not being able build for defense and high enough recharge to make Brute spin better...just wrong. Plenty of sets have +recharge and defense bonuses) due to better resistances and more HP.
Even though the difference between a top tier claws brute and claws scrapper will be very insignificant the point of this thread is that numerically, the brute will have better DPS out of all of its claws attacks.
That being said the scrapper will always have a faster spin so I can understand your argument about it being a better farmer because it will not have to throw in any other AoE's while farming (although I suspect the brute is still more efficient doing so because you using follow-up while farming is worse than redraw)...but really unless your only using the Claws/Elec for farming only (which you shouldn't be, that's what SS/Fire is for, which is a much better farmer) a Claws/Elec Brute will be better for general gameplay. Only numerically though and the difference is slight enough that no one would notice much of a difference. But technically the brute would be better.
Oy.
Okay so two things.
Arbegla, did you notice that in the build you posted to show me how stupid I am for just using spin, you only have spin as a dependable aoe? Great, thanks.
Colossal, we went over damage auras earlier in the thread. The results weren't exactly as dramatic as it seems like people had hoped. It in fact turns out that damage auras are identical on brute and scrapper. Soooooo. They "just do more damage on brutes because of fury." Are you kidding at this point? Is this some kind of mass-troll event? Cause really I can keep doing this but I'm starting to feel kind of bad, and not for me.
Quote:
Barrier? Really? I think I much prefere Rebirth (Heal/Regen) for my WPs.
|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I agree it's probably not worth it here, unless you don't mind doing everything you've done all over again.
WP is a different beast than Elec. You already get an aggro aura as a scrapper, so one of the biggest benefits of going brute doesn't matter as much (although as RttC is weak by itself, it's still a small improvement, but moreso for tanking than soloing/pure damage). While brutes have more HP, it's in the range of ~10% or so. Such a small amount isn't going to make or break the character, it's certainly not the same as 250% as much energy resistance. As for the resistance cap, it can come into play if you go Cardiac and use SotW, and it is definitely nice considering S/L is the most common damage type. Barrier being the optimal Destiny choice (IMHO) for a WP character, that's another plus for the higher res cap. Still, for that character, as a scrapper you're looking at a minimal damage loss (and arguably, in high +dam buff situations, which are rather common in team environments, you'd actually come out on top) and medium survivability difference compared to the brute version. I wouldn't sweat it. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
From Post by Recycle Please
[How indeed does one keep ten foes within range of a pbaoe without a taunt aura! A question that has tantalized man throughout the ages. Before brutes existed, it was known to be impossible to damage multiple enemies at once. Rumors persisted, however, of the legendary Spinsquatch, a creature capable of USING NAUGHT BUT ITS MOVEMENT SKILLS to corral plenty of targets to feed its low recharge scrapper AOE's. Some say it still exists... maybe it's right behind you!!!]
Sorry this was too funny, this is exactly my point of why scrappers suffer in damage calculations and you did this to be sarcastic? Time spent chasing or moving to execute a move is affecting your damage output so yes runners are a relatively big deal. Everyone knows you get runners in game its just the way the mob AI works, it is only a moot point if you are specifically talking about farms where who cares if several run away, they will come back and you stay at target cap anyways.
If your argument is pulling, herding or lining them up in corners the argument swings even further in support of brute damage as they do not have to do this the taunt components will pull enemies in. Heavens forbid you take a secondary without a damaging aura and then it would seem to even further favor brute claws.
Again these are MINOR differences in sets and the numbers are close either way. But to think for one second you can come into the brute forums and convince us scrappers are better? Child please! I will SMASH you with strong and pretty!
Quote:
I look at it that way: I've never died from lack of regenerating fast enough on my WPs. WP already has great regen (which incidentally means stacking more regen on top of it won't have the same returns as it would on a lower regen character). | Barrier? Really? I think I much prefere Rebirth (Heal/Regen) for my WPs. |
What kills me is damage spikes or cascading defense failure. Barrier helps with both of these things, whereas Rebirth wouldn't do much if any.
Wow. First, thanks to everyone for the plethora of knowledge. This thread is definitely an eye-opener, for myself at least.
I can't speak for the OP or others, but for my own specific Claw/Elec case, I think I'm going to be rerolling to Brute soon.
There were lots of good points made, but I think the kicker was sitting down when I got home and converting my planned scrapper build over to a brute that met the same goals that I wanted. (Basically, wanted to run the top attack chain w/o Spiritual)
The scrapper had Shadow Meld in her build, which was cool, but the Brute was about superior in everything else. (that mattered to me)
Have to go to work now, but I'll probably make a separate thread at some point for build critiques, as not to derail this one.
Again, thanks for all the discussion, everyone!
Quote:
In which case the damage aura favors the Brute, as the Brute has higher HP, more regen and higher Energy Res (capped).|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Oy.
Colossal, we went over damage auras earlier in the thread. The results weren't exactly as dramatic as it seems like people had hoped. It in fact turns out that damage auras are identical on brute and scrapper. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Barrier? Really? I think I much prefere Rebirth (Heal/Regen) for my WPs.
|
A WP Brute can be built to already regenerate 100-130 HP/S (maybe more with Spiritual).
As Nihilii said, lack of regeneration is not what is going to kill you.
What is going to kill you is sudden massive spike damage, and any kind of severe debuffing (like Def failure).
Barrier also provides two forms of mitigation, DEF to reduce incoming attacks and then RES to reduce the damage that gets through.
This is also very good because it allows you to "hedge your bets" so to speak, for the times when you will face severe regen debuffs.
On my /WP Brute I can cycle T4 Barrier, SoW, Demonic Aura and Robusts for the most exteme of survivability needs.
On KIR, I swap to T4 Rebirth, but that's a very special case and its also better for the league as a whole in that particular circumstance.
I feel like we're in the twilight zone. No, the damage aura does not favor the brute, not at all! What the hell? "Give us numbers!" *numbers are given* "We choose to ignore this!"
Anyway.
Ash, who said anything about pullling, herding, or lining them up? If there are still enough enemies in the spawn you're in to justify continued presence, then you sit there and kill more of them. As soon as the spawn is sufficiently depleted to have an impact on your damage, you should be in the next spawn. The leftovers are going to follow you whether you have a taunt aura or not, or your team will kill them. Or nobody will kill them, but who cares? Know what's bad for your earnings over time? Obsessing about individual npcs.
I can virtually guarantee that if you're that mental about cleaning up 100% of every spawn, you're already playing in a suboptimal manner, taunt aura or no.
The Dmg aura favors the brute because it has a taunt component and the guy your trying to kill doesn't randomly run away.
Quote:
If you could control yourself for a moment and stop being hysterical, you would see that equivalent damage means that it favors the Brute as the Brute has better numbers from Ela.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I feel like we're in the twilight zone. No, the damage aura does not favor the brute, not at all! What the hell? "Give us numbers!" *numbers are given* "We choose to ignore this!"
|
This means Ela is a better choice on a Brute.
Nothing is being ignored by me, you consistently ignore that Ela is hands down a better choice on a Brute than on a Scrapper.
Higher HP, Higher Regen, Higher Res Caps, Higher Ene Res when slotted sitting at the 90% Cap and a roughly equivalent damage aura (with the Brute doing a touch more damage) and a taunt aura to prevent enemies from running.
This is unlike SD, where the Brute gets much lesser benefit than the Scrapper who gets higher AAO numbers, which work on a higher scalar and who also gets a much better version of Shield Charge.
You seem like one of those people who have a favored AT and simply cannot accept when something they have just works mechanically better on another AT.
I favor Brutes somewhat because I enjoy holding aggro for teams but that doesn't keep me from seeing that several power-sets are clearly much better mechanically on Scrappers: Shield Defense, Dual Blades, Kinetic Melee & Electric Melee for example.
Its knowing this that is the deciding factor for me when choosing specific power-sets and power-set combinations.
Its knowing this that will see me reroll my WM/SD Brute as a WM/SD Scrapper because the Brute will be a lesser version in nearly every aspect with the exception of higher HP & higher Res Caps (And the Res Cap is fairly hard to reach on SD anyway).
I'm not sure why you want to convince yourself that Ela is a better choice on a Scrapper, but in the end that's really your problem to deal with.
Quote:
Great question! Actually the reason I want to convince the people asking for power set advice that electric armor is inferior on a scrapper by exactly one standard, survivability, is that there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent on the forum toward what seems to me to be homogeneous play. This is manifest particularly in the brute zone where, at last check, 90% of current threads are about SS/FA farmer builds. Arguing against that would clearly be a lost cause so instead I take what I can get and point out that no, it isn't a bad idea to play these sets on a scrapper. I remind you that this argument arose from loads of people telling someone that he simply had to reroll a character that it sounded like he'd already taken quite far.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'm not sure why you want to convince yourself that Ela is a better choice on a Scrapper, but in the end that's really your problem to deal with.
|
Their reasoning? Brute damage auras do infinitely more damage. Brute claws attacks all do more damage than scrapper claws attacks. Brutes can survive ambushes while scrappers wilt in the stern noon sun. Brutes can maintain aggro while scrappers shed it as water off the bottom of an otter.
In other words, the entire case for this guy to waste a lot of his time is predicated on at best misunderstanding and at worst lies. Nihilii has been the only one arguing in good faith, in pointing out that the actual advantages for the brute are going to be some hitpoints, some regen, and the taunt. You've now caught on to this yourself, Deus, but damned if it didn't take some doing.
Obviously none of this actually matters as it is still just an internet forum topic about a video game but as you can see I've had some time to kill and who doesn't love a good debate.
Quote:
This is one of the few reasonable things in this entire thread. |
Originally Posted by AshWind
Again these are MINOR differences in sets and the numbers are close either way. But to think for one second you can come into the brute forums and convince us scrappers are better? Child please! I will SMASH you with strong and pretty! |
As was said elsewhere, most of the time, you can look at a powerset combo and simply ask if you like the playstyle of either AT better and be done with it. Claws and Elec are the less common examples where there are some demonstrable advantages to being a brute.
And those advantages? Relatively minor, distinct but nothing worth actually rerolling a character over. Not nearly the "infinitely better" that has been paraded around. But they are there.
(For the record, I have no idea what went into deciding how the Claws powers would change when ported to Brutes. It was fairly haphazard. Well, that's not entirely true. The single target changes are straighforward, but the AoEs? Dunno.)
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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I did notice that, except ya know, it also has evis and even shockwave as well. Plus the damage aura. Would you like to run the numbers on it for me?|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Oy.
Okay so two things. Arbegla, did you notice that in the build you posted to show me how stupid I am for just using spin, you only have spin as a dependable aoe? Great, thanks. |
The brute build's spin does 303.5 damage with 70% fury, and recharges in 4.24 seconds with hasten active. total DPS 71.58DPS
The scrappers build spin does 260.9 damage (even accounting for crits, go go mids) and recharges in 2.79 seconds. Total DPS 93.51
So, the scrapper is ahead on pure DPS.
Now, while that's all fine and good, lets compare AoE chains.
The brute, with the higher spin recharge time, would need to fill the 4.24 second gap with something, lets say Follow up -> spin -> evis -> focus. that seems like a decent enough chain.
Followup = 156.9 damage
Spin = 303.5 damage
Evis = 343.7 damage
Focus = 220.8 damage
Total chain time = 7.524 seconds
Total damage = 1024.9 damage
Total Damage per second = 136.22DPS
The scrapper would need to fill the 2.79 second void with something, so lets just say it uses followup -> spin -> focus as that'll have enough time to run the chain. won't be quite gapless though, even with the lower recharge times on spin, but the gap is only .414 seconds, so it prolly won't be noticeable much.
Follow up = 158.9
Spin = 260.9
Focus = 201.5
Total chain time = 5.016 seconds
Total damage = 621.5 damage
Total damage per second = 123.86DPS
Hmm.. still looking like the brute is ahead... Now how can that be if spin is so much better on a scrapper then on a brute? Oh, thats because the other claws powers are also better on a brute then on a scrapper.
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I know your post said so, but when I try to replicate it in Mids' my results vary from what you posted. ;shrug
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It in fact turns out that damage auras are identical on brute and scrapper.
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Hey good point, where exactly is shockwave in this? Did you perhaps notice that it's a substantially better power for scrappers as the brute version received no damage boost to match its increased recharge?
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
I did notice that, except ya know, it also has evis and even shockwave as well. Plus the damage aura. Would you like to run the numbers on it for me?
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Total Damage per second = 136.22DPS Total damage per second = 123.86DPS Hmm.. still looking like the brute is ahead... Now how can that be if spin is so much better on a scrapper then on a brute? Oh, thats because the other claws powers are also better on a brute then on a scrapper. |
all hell, are you factoring in double followup? If followup is ignored the scrapper does less damage, but why would the scrapper forget to use one of her best powers?
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To bash people for supposedly claiming that (which I haven't seen) and then assume rerolling is an ordeal or a black and white thing strikes me as a bit silly.| And those advantages? Relatively minor, distinct but nothing worth actually rerolling a character over. Not nearly the "infinitely better" that has been paraded around. But they are there. |
Some people will take 2 hours to go from 1 to 50, some people will take 200 hours.
Some enjoy rerolling, some hate it.
Additionally, it's not like there's a specific threshold of performance at which you can say "oh, yes, definitely, reroll now" or "no, not worth it at all, never". Best you can do is give an idea of the performance gap, say what you'd do personally and let each individual decide for themselves.
Okay, I just have to say this. When did it become a matter of pairing claws with ElA? (Noone should answer that question, its a thought). This is about ONE powerset on two different AT's: Scrapper claws and Brute claws. So what if there WAS no damage aura? Hmm? Last time i checked Claws doesn't have a Damage Aura, so why bring that up to begin with? So a lot of this bickering is about what the secondary is, not about Claws. Brutes get off your high horses about how great claws is compared to the Scrapper claws. I can see WHY you say that, once you get fury up, you will be winning in damage, but right at the start, scrappers are superior in damage. Sounds more like a prefrence of playstyle. Also, stop looking at one power in general! One power does NOT whatsoever make a powerset. I wouldn't even be using Spin on a single target in the first place. There will be situations where scrappers are BETTER than brutes and situations where brutes are BETTER than scrappers, even claws follow this rule. The way i see it, a scrapper can focus less on end and recharge enhancement and slot more for damage and accuracy, giving them an even greater head start compared to a brute. *before io sets obviousily, and even that could be different*.
I've played both in standard PvE play, sometimes solo, sometimes teaming and occasionally AE Powerlevelling and they both seemed much of a muchness.
If your considering rerolling because Brute Claws is far better than scrapper claws then don't, it isn't noticably. If you're considering rerolling because of the secondary that may be a different kettle of fish, Elec is better as a Brute secondary, as is Fire.
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No one should click that link.| When did it become a matter of pairing claws with ElA? (Noone should answer that question, its a thought). |
Seriously though, reading more than the OP and the last post before posting a reply can help understanding why a discussion went from point A to point B.
Additionally, not labelling players as "brutes" or "scrappers" can help understand the discussion itself. If you get so emotional about specific ATs or characters you play that you'll take any claim of better performance from another AT or character as a personal attack, how do you expect to have any kind of conversation on relative performance? Or maybe you don't and just want to act smug like the forum goers who chant "play what you like, play what you like" in answer to OP asking "which is better?", but again I fail to see the point.
Really, if you want to make this personal I'm a scrapper at heart. I wish scrappers weren't so far behind on survivability and aggro capabilities compared to brutes in the highend game. That there are combos like Claws/Elec where everything is better as a brute is just adding insult to injury ; and of course, same goes the other way with, say, KM/SD and DM/SD being ridiculously better on scrappers.
Ideally it'd be best if any given powerset had more or less the same strength regardless of the AT and if indeed the only consideration would be playstyle. That it isn't is one reason balance is worth discussing, so people can make informed choices.
So either way you cut it Claws are good on both AT's, so pick the AT you prefer and roll with it. Those numbers they are throwing out are ridiculously close in value between both AT's.
That said Brutes are better in pve (unfortunately scrappers are better for pvp the crits tend to give them a bit more burst and they dont have to wait for fury) for a couple reasons and neither is specific to any primary or secondary:
1. Taunt effect on brute attacks keeps the mobs attached to you for quick deaths and few runners. When the mobs take too much damage too quick they tend to run, just the way the AI seems to work. It may not seem like a big deal but on kill all mishes, farms and any time you are concerned with damage per second time spent chasing hurts your damage calculation (not a biggy on primaries with ranged attacks, but focus is not that long a range) but an overlooked component all the math wizards tend to ignore. Most the damage calculations are on pylons which don't run or move which would force you to adjust your spacing or setup.
2. More room to caps on their secondaries. In case you missed it almost every buff in the game that you would want got switched to an aoe/team application in place of individual applications. The higher caps is a dramatic advantage overall, but especially to 2 specific secondaries fire armor and electric armor. Simply because those are the 2 that you can reach 90% resistance to a specific resistance type cap on your own with no outside buffs. Why you would roll either of these on a scrapper and settle for wasting that 15% blows my mind. This is a underated component of why fire farms work so well in game.