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1) When did this thread become about ambush farming?|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Tell me what your aoe chain would be on an ambush farming claws/elec brute. I can tell you what it won't be: followup -> spin -> focus. You could swap out focus for eviscerate or you could intermittently insert dark oblit and whatever else is recharged when that isn't. Both of those options are inferior to the easily attainable scrapper chain, if you consider that the scrapper can just as easily insert fireball instead of focus half the time. I find that fireball is unnecessary - spin, followup and lightning field really need no assistance in ticket capping rapidly. Survivability is a non issue, as is build cost. So yes, you could spend more to do nearly as well with a claws/elec brute and also be slightly better at AV soloing maybe? Who really cares about that anymore?
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2) If you are ambush farming and using any ST attacks, including FU, you are doing it wrong. Get more recharge, and get more AoEs, then make an Inspiration conversion macro for changing everything to reds.
3) Pure Farm builds are all about Recharge, in which case Brute Spin will win out.
4) For general play, and high end builds - and yes, even ambush farms, Brute Claws/Ela > Scrapper Claws/Ela.
I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but at this point in the thread you seem wholly dedicated to randomly injecting your opinion without any coherency and proclaiming "scrapper claws is better" and going by nothing at all except the base recharge.
Ahh I wasnt aware we were looking at the microcosm of the ambush farm
In which case I think SS/FA > Claws/Electric
Double rage+FE+ Footstomp + Burn >>> Spin
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Course you could do Claws/FA
And then have Brute Spin+Burn
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Granted, this is on my SS/FA Brute, but ST attacks don't even get touched.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Plus once you factor in fury, the brute really just needs to use spin to keep up. Lightning field, and a single target chain to fill in the gaps on spin (which you'll need single target attacks to down bosses anyways, as you are farming with bosses on right?) is enough to clear out the minions and LTs before things really hit the fan.
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Even if the build is Claws, I would do a farming build with the mu patron attacks.
Beastman brought up ambush farming.
Arbegla, not sure where you got those cast times but they're interesting to say the least. As for the recharge required, actually you need about 70% global recharge and spiritual core. Now that's easy to do.
Maybe a brute ambush farmer would be wrong to use followup, Deus, but a scrapper wouldn't. If you're breaking up your chain with constant redraw, which you would be doing between ball lightning and fences, you're doing less DPS. By the way, I must have missed the aoe chain you said you'd use?
You're right, Hai, claws/fa probably would be better for farming, burn is certainly able to hold its own against redraw, but that isn't actually the only thing I use my claws/elec for.
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Look at the math, those are based on Red Tomax's animation times, which is set for Arcanatime, which is the time it actually takes to animate said powers. Spirtual core adds about 15%-35% recharge, depending on if its t1 or t4 which would match my estimation of about 116% (assuming of course your 70% global recharge, which is still pushing it for perma hasten, which is what you'll need to run that AOE chain)|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Arbegla, not sure where you got those cast times but they're interesting to say the least. As for the recharge required, actually you need about 70% global recharge and spiritual core. Now that's easy to do.
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And like already stated, even follow up is a waste of time on ambush farming. Its all about AoE spam, and the redraw time on claws is less then a seconds (i think its something like .66 seconds, werner would have to correct me on it) so even if you went spin -> electric fenses -> ball lightning you'd still do more damage on a brute when compared to follow up -> spin -> focus. Your really underestimating fury, which i think is your biggest problem, but not your only problem with your arguement for claw/elec scrappers being better then claw/elec brutes.
FWIW without reading the whole thread I will say that for single-target DPS, my Claws/SR brute underperformed Claws/SR scraps on the pylon test. This largely (I believe) was due to the +dmg buff of follow-up being significantly lower on Brutes and also the lack of criticals (post Fury nerf, crits pull ahead). Best I could get was around 180dps.
Chain was FU-Focus-Slash [repeat] with standard proccing.
So while Spin may be better on a Brute, ST dps falls behind the scrap afaik.
I assume you meant 2.66 seconds for spin then, still not sure how adjusting for arcanatime could take focus from 1.17 to 1.46 though! Anyway, that's irrelevant. My point is that claws/elec in and of itself happens to be an excellent farming combination for scrappers. I think it's fairly clear that a brute built the same way will be severely lacking either in aoe or in defense. You can make up for this with a pure farming build, but as Hai points out, you already have a SS/FA as your exclusive farmer, so why would you do that?
I'm not interested in making a pure farmer, I'm interested in characters that are highly capable across a range of content. From that perspective, claws/elec is clearly superior in scrapper form. You have excellent damage easily available without committing to an epic pool that's far less appealing when not farming, you've got more than enough survivability to tank whatever AV you'd care to, you can farm well if you feel like it, basically the only thing you don't get is the taunt aura which isn't a particularly big deal if you have any experience rounding up groups without it. To call it some kind of coup to get more out of power surge is like saying that awakens are better for brutes because they leave you with more HP. Who cares?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Maybe a brute ambush farmer would be wrong to use followup, Deus, but a scrapper wouldn't. If you're breaking up your chain with constant redraw, which you would be doing between ball lightning and fences, you're doing less DPS. By the way, I must have missed the aoe chain you said you'd use?
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I'm not sure if Bill tested for Scrappers as well as brutes, but his opinion on claws is one I'm willing to take on face value alone. He does however, back it up.
The redraw incurred is minimal in comparison to the efficiency you gain from simply pumping out more AoEs and attacking 10 to 16 targets, instead of wasting your time on a maintaining a damage bonus you could be getting from an inspiration macro and attacking 1 target.
When Bill says "redraw kills" btw, he means Claws vs. SS and not Follow Up vs. 2 More AoEs.
It doesn't matter if you are a Brute or a Scrapper either, once you are damage capped - FU is a waste of animation time.
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Except it isn't...|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I'm not interested in making a pure farmer, I'm interested in characters that are highly capable across a range of content. From that perspective, claws/elec is clearly superior in scrapper form.
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And you've yet to understand why.
Unfortunately nobody seems capable of explaining why!
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Its been touched on, but here's a good explanation.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Unfortunately nobody seems capable of explaining why!
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Originally Posted by Bill Z bubba
When claws was ported to brutes, the powers team increased the base recharge of some of the attacks. This caused the damage and endurance costs to also go up. And then there's the funky claws specific damage/activation equation that got slapped on.
End result? Brute claws was better by a bit than scrapper claws. Then fury got smacked with the nerf bat. Now? Brute still wins but not by nearly as much. |
Basically, when they ported Claws it wasn't a straight port.
The damage scale for the Brute attacks were increased as were the recharge and endurance costs.
This is actually a benefit, because you can reduce the recharge and endurance through enhancements & IO sets, but you can not improve the base damage of a power.
This isn't the case with say, Dual Blades.
Dual Blades is exactly the same for Brutes and Scrappers - so when choosing a DB/Ela Brute or Scrapper or DB/anything really it comes down to "Brute is more resilient, Scrapper does more damage"
Ela is more survivable as a Brute for all of the reasons people have already explained.
- Higher Energy resistance cap, with the ability to actually cap it.
- More HP
- More regen
- Taunt aura to keep stuff near you/in lightning field.
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http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...er_Melee.Claws|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I assume you meant 2.66 seconds for spin then, still not sure how adjusting for arcanatime could take focus from 1.17 to 1.46 though! Anyway, that's irrelevant. My point is that claws/elec in and of itself happens to be an excellent farming combination for scrappers. I think it's fairly clear that a brute built the same way will be severely lacking either in aoe or in defense. You can make up for this with a pure farming build, but as Hai points out, you already have a SS/FA as your exclusive farmer, so why would you do that?
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Your right, i was looking at the wrong numbers. Thats what i get for typing at work. The right numbers would be .83 for follow up, 2.5 for spin, and 1.17 for focus, which means you'll need to have spin recharge in 2 seconds, which just increases the amount of required recharge even more.. Your still not looking at a 'budget build' either way.
You've yet to show how a brute built the same way as a scrapper would be 'severely lacking in either AOE or in defense' especially when accounting for fury and the higher resistance and HP base and caps that brutes have. Softcapped defense is still the same regardless of AT, so all you have to increase your survival is the higher resistance and HP caps of a brute. I'm not sure how that favors a scrapper at all...
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| I'm not interested in making a pure farmer, I'm interested in characters that are highly capable across a range of content. From that perspective, claws/elec is clearly superior in scrapper form. You have excellent damage easily available without committing to an epic pool that's far less appealing when not farming, you've got more than enough survivability to tank whatever AV you'd care to, you can farm well if you feel like it, basically the only thing you don't get is the taunt aura which isn't a particularly big deal if you have any experience rounding up groups without it. To call it some kind of coup to get more out of power surge is like saying that awakens are better for brutes because they leave you with more HP. Who cares? |
brutes also get more out of the passive, and generally the other resistance numbers before even accounting for power surge over a scrapper. the difference between 75% resistance to energy, and 90% resistance to energy, when facing energy heavy mobs is massive. The regeneration benefits of energize when compared between brutes and scrappers is also massive. Can you please provide actual mathematical evidence that claw/elec brutes < claw/elec scrappers besides just saying it?
Well, I have a level 50 Claws/Willpower Scrapper, fully IO-ed out, with a lot of Incarnate Shards and several anniversary badges, whose backstory could allow him to be a heroic Brute if I wanted to re-roll. He was made years before it was possible to bring Brutes blueside.
I know Willpower is flat-out stronger on a Brute and I've been following the Claws arguments with interest. I do really like spamming Scrapper Spin -- which is significantly faster, not just a little faster -- but I don't pretend to know something the serious analysts don't.
I don't think it's worth re-rolling in my case -- I'm not even sure I like Fury. But I hope Scrapper Claws isn't too far behind Brute version. Sigh.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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On a high recharge build the Scrapper lower base Rech advantage will be less noticeable.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I know Willpower is flat-out stronger on a Brute and I've been following the Claws arguments with interest. I do really like spamming Scrapper Spin -- which is significantly faster, not just a little faster -- but I don't pretend to know something the serious analysts don't.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
I don't think it's worth re-rolling in my case -- I'm not even sure I like Fury. But I hope Scrapper Claws isn't too far behind Brute version. Sigh.
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If you do care about absolute top performance and are willing to put in the time investment to get there, then it is a stronger option.
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Also i think BillZ put the difference at about 10%, assuming sustainable fury of about 70-80% (which is entirely possible, but could drop between spawns) so its not much of a difference on paper.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Well, I have a level 50 Claws/Willpower Scrapper, fully IO-ed out, with a lot of Incarnate Shards and several anniversary badges, whose backstory could allow him to be a heroic Brute if I wanted to re-roll. He was made years before it was possible to bring Brutes blueside.
I know Willpower is flat-out stronger on a Brute and I've been following the Claws arguments with interest. I do really like spamming Scrapper Spin -- which is significantly faster, not just a little faster -- but I don't pretend to know something the serious analysts don't. I don't think it's worth re-rolling in my case -- I'm not even sure I like Fury. But I hope Scrapper Claws isn't too far behind Brute version. Sigh. |
Also, while brute claws > scrapper claws you do have to factor in any boosts your secondary may give you. Damage auras are infinitely better for brutes then scrappers due to fury being able to fuel them, but secondaries without damage auras (like SR for example) seem to perform better for scrappers given the same budget and playstyle.
Might be something to take into account in the event of a reroll, but if your already invested, its prolly best to just stay the way you are.
For some reason I don't feel that compelled to produce numbers when what I'm arguing against is "damage auras are infinitely better because of fury" and "fury is a damage bonus therefore scrappers are worse." This isn't exactly rocket surgery. Scrapper spin hits 88% as hard as brute spin and recharges in 66% of the time. Oh look, I was wrong about followup. It isn't three times as effective for scrappers assuming the brute has 160% damage bonus from fury, it's at least four times as effective, as it not only operates on a much higher damage scale but it also has a higher buff value. Not only that, but any additional buffs you manage to tack on, assault for instance, will be significant for the scrapper and meaningless for the brute.
Let's look at damage auras, shall we? A scrapper with 95% enhancement and double stacked followup should see 34 damage per tick on lightning field. A brute with 95% enhancement and double stacked followup and 160% bonus damage from fury will be doing... dun dun dun, 34 damage per tick. Wow, that's infinitely better! Tell me more, Arbegla!
I'm not impressed.
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And with added recharge, the Brute version is better.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
This isn't exactly rocket surgery. Scrapper spin hits 88% as hard as brute spin and recharges in 66% of the time.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
as it not only operates on a much higher damage scale but it also has a higher buff value. Not only that, but any additional buffs you manage to tack on, assault for instance, will be significant for the scrapper and meaningless for the brute.
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Scrappers DO have a higher melee scalar, and they do get more out of FU and yes their FU does give a higher damage bonus - but in this case the base damages of their Claws attacks are lower than the Brute counterparts.
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/
Take a look through there, and you can see the difference in base damage for the two versions of claws.
As far as my comments concerned I didn't "specify" farming but surviving an ambush is really what sets a scrapper apart from a brute. Who in world argues against level shifted toons? The general argument is concerning non super IO toons and incarnates. Anyone familiar with the pylon thread know that without adding level shifts and speaking in general builds that scrappers are kings of that feat.
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Really? Lets compare your numbers shall we?|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
For some reason I don't feel that compelled to produce numbers when what I'm arguing against is "damage auras are infinitely better because of fury" and "fury is a damage bonus therefore scrappers are worse." This isn't exactly rocket surgery. Scrapper spin hits 88% as hard as brute spin and recharges in 66% of the time. Oh look, I was wrong about followup. It isn't three times as effective for scrappers assuming the brute has 160% damage bonus from fury, it's at least four times as effective, as it not only operates on a much higher damage scale but it also has a higher buff value. Not only that, but any additional buffs you manage to tack on, assault for instance, will be significant for the scrapper and meaningless for the brute.
Let's look at damage auras, shall we? A scrapper with 95% enhancement and double stacked followup should see 34 damage per tick on lightning field. A brute with 95% enhancement and double stacked followup and 160% bonus damage from fury will be doing... dun dun dun, 34 damage per tick. Wow, that's infinitely better! Tell me more, Arbegla! I'm not impressed. |
Scrappers Spin, as per red tomax as i don't have mids nor in game numbers off hand due to being at work.
spin for scrappers has a damage scale of 1.659, or about 98.85 damage
spin for brutes has a damage scale of 1.89, or about 78.83 damage
Now, lets add double stacked follow up.
For a scrapper you have 37.5% * 2 or 75% damage
For a brute you have 30% * 2 or 60% damage
Then lets factor in the inherents
For a scrapper you have critcals, which only affect the primary, and adds about 10% more damage (on average)
For a brute, you have fury, which scales up to 200% damage, but normally averages out at about 160% damage (80% fury)
And now lets add in enhancements, for 95% damage to each AT.
So for a scrapper you have:
(98.85 * 10%) + (98.85 * 2.7) = 9.885 + 266.895 = 276.78 damage after accounting for double stacked follow up, enhancements and criticals.
2.7 is the 1.0 base, plus .75 for follow up, and .95 for enhancements
For a brute you have
(78.83 * 4.15) = 327.1445 damage after accounting for double stacked follow up, 95% enhancements, and 80% fury.
4.15 is the 1.0 base, plus the 1.6 for fury, plus the .6 for follow up, and .95 for enhancements.
Last i checked, 327.1445 is greater then 276.78. Which would mean the scrapper actually does 84.6% the damage the brute does, once you account for enhancements, double stacked follow up, and fury.
And now lets check the math on your damage auras, using /elec lightning field as an example.
Again, lets assume 95% enhancements, double stacked follow up, and 80% fury for the brute, and 95% enhancements, and double stacked follow up for the scrapper.
Scrappers Lightning field does 12.51 damage
Brutes lightning field does 8.34 damage
So a scrapper would do:
(12.51 * 2.7) damage or about 33.777 damage every tick
2.7 is the 1.0 base, plus .75 for follow up, and .95 for enhancements
A brute would do:
(8.34 * 4.15) damage or about 34.611 damage every tick
4.15 is the 1.0 base, plus the 1.6 for fury, plus the .6 for follow up, and .95 for enhancements.
Its close, but the brute still pulls ahead. Granted the scrapper is still doing 98% the damage the brute is doing, but the brute can still push it higher. Lets see what the damage cap would do shall we?
12.51 for the scrapper, at a 500% damage, which is the damage cap, would be 12.51 * 5 or about 62.55 damage.
8.34 for the brute, at 775% damage, which is the damage cap for them, would be 8.34 * 7.75 or about 64.635 damage.
Hmm.. looks like even at the damage cap the brute pulls ahead.
So now that i've proven your math wrong, where's your numbers to back it up?
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I agree it's probably not worth it here, unless you don't mind doing everything you've done all over again.| I don't think it's worth re-rolling in my case -- I'm not even sure I like Fury. But I hope Scrapper Claws isn't too far behind Brute version. Sigh. |
WP is a different beast than Elec. You already get an aggro aura as a scrapper, so one of the biggest benefits of going brute doesn't matter as much (although as RttC is weak by itself, it's still a small improvement, but moreso for tanking than soloing/pure damage).
While brutes have more HP, it's in the range of ~10% or so. Such a small amount isn't going to make or break the character, it's certainly not the same as 250% as much energy resistance.
As for the resistance cap, it can come into play if you go Cardiac and use SotW, and it is definitely nice considering S/L is the most common damage type. Barrier being the optimal Destiny choice (IMHO) for a WP character, that's another plus for the higher res cap.
Still, for that character, as a scrapper you're looking at a minimal damage loss (and arguably, in high +dam buff situations, which are rather common in team environments, you'd actually come out on top) and medium survivability difference compared to the brute version. I wouldn't sweat it.
"My math" was demonstrating that your claim of infinite brute superiority was ludicrous, Arbegla. You've corroborated my assertion, not disproven it. Speaking of the damage cap, how much additional buffing does it take the brute to get there? How much for the scrapper? Hmm...
The funny thing is, I never said scrapper spin hit harder than brute spin. I said it was better. It is. At any level of recharge, it is back in 66% of the time it takes for brute spin to get back. At the recharge cap, this makes it a full second faster still. With less recharge, the gap is even wider. Having high recharge is not "better" because it can be reduced. That's a completely outlandish argument. That is equivalent to saying that hail of bullets is better than rain of arrows because it has a 120 second recharge and ~14% higher damage.
I notice you're also being extremely charitable to the brute on the fury number. Funny, but what I've heard brute players saying in other situations is that 65-70% fury is the new norm. Or does the average sustainable fury depend on whether you're trying to crap on scrappers or claim that scrapper is op and brute need buff? Seems as though it might.
Back to you, Deus! Funny thing I just noticed while looking at city of data. Spin seems actually to get the most pronounced damage increase for brutes - other powers are anywhere from comparable, so a 13% increase, to not increased at all. All of them, on the other hand, have higher recharge, with the exception of followup. Followup, a power which actually has a reduced base damage for brutes compared to scrappers, and which also is less beneficial to them. I'm actually not convinced that the brute numbers are going to look very good at all! Course we could still work it all out if you want to?
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Originally Posted by BeastMan
As far as my comments concerned I didn't "specify" farming but surviving an ambush is really what sets a scrapper apart from a brute. Who in world argues against level shifted toons? The general argument is concerning non super IO toons and incarnates. Anyone familiar with the pylon thread know that without adding level shifts and speaking in general builds that scrappers are kings of that feat.
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To be honest, I'm not even sure what you are talking about.
But no well built, highly IO'd Scrapper or Brute will faceplant easily.
If your point is that against +4x8 Ambushes the Brute will survive and the Scrapper will not - the Brute has an edge vs. Energy Damage and has a bit more HP, but I don't think it will be some clear case of the Scrapper Face-planting and the Brute surviving.
So here is my Claws/SR brute. I was getting 187-188 dps tops, on the pylon test. It might have been held back by a tiny little delay in FU recharge, though in MIDS it shows being able t run FU-Focus-Slash (repeat) without problems.
Similar Scrapper builds appeared to be getting higher DPS. Which is why I'm surprised everyone here is talking about how much better Claws are for brutes. Maybe that's accounting for Spin and other attacks that are not in my chain?
Maybe the optimal chain for Brutes is not FU-Focus-Slash? Especially given what people are saying here about certain brute attacks for Claws having been given higher base dmg?
Anyway I'm open to suggestions as I haven't played this guy much since feeling that his DPS fell behind his Scrapper counterparts. Even my FM/INV brute was getting higher DPS (~195).
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Sharpened: Level 50 Technology Brute
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Swipe -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(7), LkGmblr-Rchg+(9), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 2: Slash -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(9), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), Achilles-ResDeb%(13)
Level 4: Focused Senses -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-EndRdx(15), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(15), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(17), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 6: Spin -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(19), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(21), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Oblit-%Dam(23), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23)
Level 8: Follow Up -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(25), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Hectmb-Dam%(27), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(29)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Agile -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(29)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 16: Dodge -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(19), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(43)
Level 18: Focus -- Apoc-Dmg(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(34), Apoc-Dam%(36), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), ExStrk-Dam%(50)
Level 20: Evasion -- RedFtn-Def(A), RedFtn-EndRdx(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(37), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(37), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 22: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 24: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam(33), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(33), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 26: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(31), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(39), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40), RedFtn-EndRdx(46), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 28: Lucky -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(37), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(43)
Level 30: Aid Other -- Heal-I(A)
Level 32: Eviscerate -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Armgdn-Dam%(39), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(42), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(42)
Level 35: Quickness -- Run-I(A)
Level 38: Aid Self -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(40), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(48)
Level 41: Superior Conditioning -- P'Shift-End%(A)
Level 44: Shockwave -- Ragnrk-Dmg(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-End%(A)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Spiritual Total Core Revamp
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(7), Mrcl-Rcvry+(34), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(46), Mrcl-Heal(48), RgnTis-Regen+(50)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(3), P'Shift-End%(3), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(5), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(5), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(31)
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So because the scrapper has a lower damage cap, and a higher damage mod its going to perform better yet lower resistance cap, and lower hp, compared to a Brute who has a higher damag cap and a lower damage mod in addition to higher resistance cap, and higher HP.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
"My math" was demonstrating that your claim of infinite brute superiority was ludicrous, Arbegla. You've corroborated my assertion, not disproven it. Speaking of the damage cap, how much additional buffing does it take the brute to get there? How much for the scrapper? Hmm...
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| The funny thing is, I never said scrapper spin hit harder than brute spin. I said it was better. It is. At any level of recharge, it is back in 66% of the time it takes for brute spin to get back. At the recharge cap, this makes it a full second faster still. With less recharge, the gap is even wider. Having high recharge is not "better" because it can be reduced. That's a completely outlandish argument. That is equivalent to saying that hail of bullets is better than rain of arrows because it has a 120 second recharge and ~14% higher damage. |
There is still only so many times you can spam spin, you'll need something else to put in that chain. If all your use where claws AoEs, being shockwave, spin, and evis, the brute would pull ahead due to higher DPA numbers. If you start adding in patron pools, and epic power pools, the brute would still pull ahead, due to higher DPA numbers.
Higher recharge times actually means you can space more attacks in while your waiting, and use your higher DPA attacks. Which basically, everything except follow up is a higher DPA attack for brutes then it is for scrapper. Again, nice try but your looking at the wrong numbers to try to justify your respond.
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| I notice you're also being extremely charitable to the brute on the fury number. Funny, but what I've heard brute players saying in other situations is that 65-70% fury is the new norm. Or does the average sustainable fury depend on whether you're trying to crap on scrappers or claim that scrapper is op and brute need buff? Seems as though it might. |
Can you please show me an affordable claw/elec build that has 116% global recharge in it? Cuz off the top of my head i cant think of one, without diving head first into purple IOs, and those aren't exactly affordable these days.
Plus once you factor in fury, the brute really just needs to use spin to keep up. Lightning field, and a single target chain to fill in the gaps on spin (which you'll need single target attacks to down bosses anyways, as you are farming with bosses on right?) is enough to clear out the minions and LTs before things really hit the fan. And the higher resistance values on brutes means that even if you chew inspirations like candy on that scrapper, the brute will still take about 15% less damage (75% capped resistance vs 90% on the brute)
I figure my resistance values are a little off, but you get the general idea. Given identical builds, the claw/elec brute will pull ahead with ease.