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Sorry I came off that way, been thinking of rerolling my claw/regen scrapper as a claw/?? and figured why not leave my options open and check out claws for brutes. I've been reading this from the beginning and know how ElA came into the discussion. Just saying this OP was about which was better, Scrapper Claws or Brute Claws, not which is better with what secondary. Obviousily ElA would be better for a brute due to higher res cap, health, and taunt. I'll admit i prefer playing scrappers, but I do enjoy playing a brute from time to time. Just a pet peeve when things go off topic for too long without really addressing what something is about, in this case, Claws on both Archtypes. That previous post was more to point out those things, but I let my anger get the better of me |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Seriously though, reading more than the OP and the last post before posting a reply can help understanding why a discussion went from point A to point B.
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... uh ignore the pun. But besides the point, the same post also addressed certain advantages of a scrapper, due to lower end and recharge, a scrapper can slot for more damage and accuracy while leveling up. But since most secondarys tend to go better with a brute, you'll be more survivable as a brute, and (eventually) deal more damage than a scrapper on average... and according to a previous post, in AoE terms in particular. Single target appearntly goes to the scrapper. (do correct me if i'm wrong about that last bit.)
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Not sure where you got that information from, as a brute would deal 186.6 damage on a brute, and 177.4 damage on a scrapper. Still putting the brute ahead.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Hey good point, where exactly is shockwave in this? Did you perhaps notice that it's a substantially better power for scrappers as the brute version received no damage boost to match its increased recharge?
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| Well if you want me to point out the most obvious way without even questioning your numbers it'd be that the scrapper is doing most of this dps to ten targets while the brute is doing most of its dps to five targets. The brute was also compelled to take an additional not-very-good attack in the process. Is that a positive thing? And you did mention shockwave, didn't you? |
The reason i didn't use shockwave because its better to do some damage, then no damage, and you can't chain follow->spin->shockwave on a scrapper is because there would be too much of a gap on spin, so you have to use evis for its longer animation, unless you want to do nothing while you wait.
You could pretty easily chain followup->spin->evis->shockwave and the brute would still pull out ahead compared to followup->spin->evis->shockwave on a scrapper.
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| all hell, are you factoring in double followup? If followup is ignored the scrapper does less damage, but why would the scrapper forget to use one of her best powers? |
Brute:
Followup -> 176.9
Spin -> 350.8
Evis -> 371
Shockwave -> 200.8
Total damage -> 1099.5
Total time -> 7.392
Total DPS -> 148.74
Scrapper:
Followup -> 200.2
Spin -> 342.5
Evis -> 386
Shockwave -> 204.4
Total damage -> 1133.1
Total time -> 7.392
Total DPS -> 153.29
Now, while it does look like the scrapper pulls ahead, thats assuming all of the attacks crit right at 10%, meaning your only fighting LTs and bosses. If you take out the crit chance, as its really not a very dependable damage point, your looking at these numbers:
Scrapper:
Followup -> 185.1
Spin -> 312.7
Evis -> 337.5
Shockwave -> 187.2
Total damage -> 1022.5
Total time -> 7.392
Total DPS -> 138.33
So really, it depends on what you want to work with, the scrapper may start out with higher damage, but the brute will pull ahead by a decent amount once they hit 70% fury (which again, can go higher) and the scrapper could pull ahead by having a lucky streak of crits going off. Fury is much more dependable then crits are, but there ya go, the math is there to show it.
Brute Claws > Scrapper Claws but by a small margin. Now, brute /elec is much greater then scrapper /elec due to increased resistance, higher HP, and better regen.
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I wasn't aware that the powerleveling AE stuff got that bad. 2 hours? Really?|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
To bash people for supposedly claiming that (which I haven't seen) and then assume rerolling is an ordeal or a black and white thing strikes me as a bit silly.
Some people will take 2 hours to go from 1 to 50, some people will take 200 hours. Some enjoy rerolling, some hate it. Additionally, it's not like there's a specific threshold of performance at which you can say "oh, yes, definitely, reroll now" or "no, not worth it at all, never". Best you can do is give an idea of the performance gap, say what you'd do personally and let each individual decide for themselves. |
You quoted that post I was referring to. The point I'm making is that claiming one version of the combo is "gimped" defensively over the other or that one should reroll to avoid dealing with an "inferior" character is completely absurd, as is some of the hyperbole in this thread.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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If it has better survivability and equal or even slightly better damage from the Aura, then the Brute version is simply the more optimal choice.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Great question! Actually the reason I want to convince the people asking for power set advice that electric armor is inferior on a scrapper by exactly one standard, survivability
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
is that there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent on the forum toward what seems to me to be homogeneous play. This is manifest particularly in the brute zone where, at last check, 90% of current threads are about SS/FA farmer builds.
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Or do you have a short memory?
Elm/SD, Fm/SD and DM/SD they've all had their share of forum hogging on the scrapper boards.
Sometimes one combo is particularly popular, sometimes some really amazing player does something really amazing with a combo and suddenly everyone wants to play that as well ('sup iggy
)But the current popularity of SS/FA has no relevance of any kind of a discussion about optimal choices concerning completely different sets.
Don't worry, soon you might get to combat EA in the Scrapper forums as it has the potential to become "The New SR".
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Arguing against that would clearly be a lost cause so instead I take what I can get and point out that no, it isn't a bad idea to play these sets on a scrapper.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I remind you that this argument arose from loads of people telling someone that he simply had to reroll a character that it sounded like he'd already taken quite far.
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I think its time for you to go back and re-read the thread.
This argument arose when this post happened:
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Since nobody else has mentioned it, as I am the only person who prefers scrappers to brutes, I shall point out that follow up for scrappers is approximately thrice as effective as it is for brutes. In addition to this already oceanically salient point, scrapper spin's recharge advantage is more than merely significant in applications where you can be sure that its target cap will be saturated even without considering its heightened ability to apply procs. To carve the stately wiener onto this David of an argument, the scrapper archetype icon is both yellow and swooshy, thus indescribably more liable to excite one's passions than the grey fist.
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Here's another gem.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
In other words, the entire case for this guy to waste a lot of his time is predicated on at best misunderstanding and at worst lies. Nihilii has been the only one arguing in good faith, in pointing out that the actual advantages for the brute are going to be some hitpoints, some regen, and the taunt.
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The funny part is Nihilii outright told gum he should reroll (and I agree with Nihilii's overall assertions)
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Originally Posted by Nihilii[/quote
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At 90% res you can take 2.5 times as much punishment compared to 75%, that means Energy all the time and all damage types save psi while under Power Surge. It's one of the (thankfully few) combos where there is simply no performance reason to use it on the other AT. Better damage, better survivability, better everything. |
Here's my fav:
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
THIS IS POST NUMBER 67
You've now caught on to this yourself, Deus, but damned if it didn't take some doing. |
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
THIS IS POST NUMBER 40, 40 IS A NUMBER THAT COMES BEFORE 67
If you don't know if you would enjoy fury or not, and you are already L50 and IOd out - then no I don't think you should stress out about it, nor reroll. If you do care about absolute top performance and are willing to put in the time investment to get there, then it is a stronger option. |
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Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
(For the record, I have no idea what went into deciding how the Claws powers would change when ported to Brutes. It was fairly haphazard. Well, that's not entirely true. The single target changes are straighforward, but the AoEs? Dunno.)
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
No one should click that link.
Seriously though, reading more than the OP and the last post before posting a reply can help understanding why a discussion went from point A to point B. Additionally, not labelling players as "brutes" or "scrappers" can help understand the discussion itself. If you get so emotional about specific ATs or characters you play that you'll take any claim of better performance from another AT or character as a personal attack, how do you expect to have any kind of conversation on relative performance? Or maybe you don't and just want to act smug like the forum goers who chant "play what you like, play what you like" in answer to OP asking "which is better?", but again I fail to see the point. Really, if you want to make this personal I'm a scrapper at heart. I wish scrappers weren't so far behind on survivability and aggro capabilities compared to brutes in the highend game. That there are combos like Claws/Elec where everything is better as a brute is just adding insult to injury ; and of course, same goes the other way with, say, KM/SD and DM/SD being ridiculously better on scrappers. Ideally it'd be best if any given powerset had more or less the same strength regardless of the AT and if indeed the only consideration would be playstyle. That it isn't is one reason balance is worth discussing, so people can make informed choices. |
I quoted this, because while Nihilii was addressing Delmain, it also applies very well to PleaseRecycle.
Its also something I really agree with.
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"Slower" should have meant longer animations probably. It probably wasn't the best idea to simply improve the DPS of each power in a game where you can pile on so much +recharge so easily now.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I think it was an attempt to separate Brutes and Scrappers thematically, where the Scrapper version is light & fast and the Brute version is slower but harder hitting.
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Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
Three points:
- You need to factor in the bonus 15% chance to crit that the Scrapper has on Eviscerate.
- You would never completely factor out crits on the Scrapper as the AT has a modest ability to crit minions as well at 5%. Its disingenuous to look at a chain without crits entirely.
- Furthermore, regardless of minion/LT/Boss, the odds highly favor crits occurring in an AoE chain, particularly on Eviscerate. That attack will crit on at least one target, every time, at the target cap. If you're going to be a stickler, you'd apply a flat 7.5% chance to crit on all powers, 22.5% on Eviscerate.
- For what its worth, I also would not include Shockwave in an AoE chain comparison. From a practical perspective, its not happening without repositioning. I say this as someone that has played with Shockwave and loves the power.
The appropriate chain comparison math, in my opinion, for the Scrapper would be: Follow Up + Spin + Eviscerate (Repeat). The AoEs maximize 2x stacked follow up and leverage the Scrappers bonus on Eviscerate.
For the Brute, I suspect they'd be better off with an AoE chain leveragin a Patron power like Elec. Fences rather than Eviscerate, but that's just my gut. I have Evis on my Brute, and I think I'd prefer a higher target cap personally. I dunno.
Anyway that's how I'd compare 'em. Just my $0.02 and I have no dog or pony in this pissing match.
(And in case anyone cares, I have a Claws/Elec Brute, fully IO'd / Incarnated and yes, it is a tiny God. I also have a Claws/Fire Scrapper and its very nice as well. YMMV!)
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That would require an entirely new set of animations, i.e. a brand new set. |
Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
"Slower" should have meant longer animations probably. It probably wasn't the best idea to simply improve the DPS of each power in a game where you can pile on so much +recharge so easily now.
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Which defeats the point of proliferation which is basically a way the devs can recycle material and have us be happy about it.
Not to mention that the game is not balanced on piles and piles of recharge.
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It has better damage in the fantastical realm where you're actually going to be at 80% fury all the time.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
If it has better survivability and equal or even slightly better damage from the Aura, then the Brute version is simply the more optimal choice.
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| Don't worry, soon you might get to combat EA in the Scrapper forums as it has the potential to become "The New SR". |
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| The funny part is Nihilii outright told gum he should reroll (and I agree with Nihilii's overall assertions) |
It's like playing whack-a-mole in this thread.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That would require an entirely new set of animations, i.e. a brand new set.
Which defeats the point of proliferation which is basically a way the devs can recycle material and have us be happy about it. Not to mention that the game is not balanced on piles and piles of recharge. |
Didn't said that it wouldn't be a pain in the ***, just that it was probably a better way to convey what they wanted but definitely not easy.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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Keeping fury up is stupidly easy nowadays
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It has better damage in the fantastical realm where you're actually going to be at 80% fury all the time.
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/gignore @username is the best feature of this game. It's also probably the least used feature.
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Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn
Hazy is right
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You seem to highly underestimate how big of a difference a taunt aura makes.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Great question! Actually the reason I want to convince the people asking for power set advice that electric armor is inferior on a scrapper by exactly one standard, survivability, is that there is an increasingly powerful undercurrent on the forum toward what seems to me to be homogeneous play.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Okay I missed the numbers presented about how damage auras are identical (sorry about that, really wasn't trying to come off as just flinging around facts with no support. I've just read so many times that damage auras do better for Brutes and have seen other math proving it I figured it was true. My mistake.) but all the other points in my post about DPS are still completely true and still make a Claws/Elec Brute do more damage and more survivable (however slightly, it's still true). Plus as a brute you get better +Regen out of Energize cause of the higher HP. Another thing that makes /Elec more survivable for brutes.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Colossal, we went over damage auras earlier in the thread. The results weren't exactly as dramatic as it seems like people had hoped. It in fact turns out that damage auras are identical on brute and scrapper. Soooooo. They "just do more damage on brutes because of fury." Are you kidding at this point? Is this some kind of mass-troll event? Cause really I can keep doing this but I'm starting to feel kind of bad, and not for me.
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But this thread is about Claws, not /Elec. As proven before if DPS and burst damage is what you're looking for for AoE or single target, (and it should be for general gameplay) than a high end Brute > high end Scrapper. However minimally.
Did 2 pylon runs to confirm my DPS on my Claws/SR brute. running about ~190dps.
That's below what Claws scraps were getting. So I still think for single-target, Brute claws falls behind?
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...postcount=1969
When you start stacking Follow Up on top of those Crits, Scraps should pull slightly ahead
Not sure what peak fury would be at in that case and how much additional targets would factor in there.
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How much below? When I was running pylon times on my corr, I remember that small mistakes ended up making fairly big differences in my times and dps.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Did 2 pylon runs to confirm my DPS on my Claws/SR brute. running about ~190dps.
That's below what Claws scraps were getting. So I still think for single-target, Brute claws falls behind? http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...postcount=1969 |
Building fury could be the problem if your begenning with 0. Fury builds very quickly and is easy to maintain +70% even with one target, the couple seconds could easily make the difference in a few dps on a pylon.
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I started as close to 75% as I could. Other details in the other post (link).
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Originally Posted by MajorTractor
How much below? When I was running pylon times on my corr, I remember that small mistakes ended up making fairly big differences in my times and dps.
Building fury could be the problem if your begenning with 0. Fury builds very quickly and is easy to maintain +70% even with one target, the couple seconds could easily make the difference in a few dps on a pylon. |
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It also depends on slotted. While your claw/SR could be slotted for aid self, tough/weave etc, the scrapper could just have the rebirth destiny, pray the passive +regen covers his survival, and throws in assault into his build for extra damage.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Did 2 pylon runs to confirm my DPS on my Claws/SR brute. running about ~190dps.
That's below what Claws scraps were getting. So I still think for single-target, Brute claws falls behind? http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...postcount=1969 |
When you compare identical builds, brutes are higher by ~10% damage, due to higher DPA numbers on thier attacks. Now, on non identical builds, or even general human error, brutes and scrapper could be on par damage wise.
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The Follow Up / Focus / Slash attack chain is 10% higher on a Brute?
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
It also depends on slotted. While your claw/SR could be slotted for aid self, tough/weave etc, the scrapper could just have the rebirth destiny, pray the passive +regen covers his survival, and throws in assault into his build for extra damage.
When you compare identical builds, brutes are higher by ~10% damage, due to higher DPA numbers on thier attacks. Now, on non identical builds, or even general human error, brutes and scrapper could be on par damage wise. |
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
It also depends on slotted. While your claw/SR could be slotted for aid self, tough/weave etc, the scrapper could just have the rebirth destiny, pray the passive +regen covers his survival, and throws in assault into his build for extra damage.
When you compare identical builds, brutes are higher by ~10% damage, due to higher DPA numbers on thier attacks. Now, on non identical builds, or even general human error, brutes and scrapper could be on par damage wise. |
While that's true for the DPA numbers, it might be possible that the effects of triple stacked FU are having a more pronounced effect on the Scrapper builds.
Alternatively, the Scrapper builds might also have slotted heavily for +Damage bonuses which might also put them ahead.
@Granite Agent, unfortunately its difficult to make an assessment without seeing all the builds that are involved.
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Idk about 10% higher but yes that chain is higher for a brute @ +70% fury. Billz had it broken down with the numbers somewhere in the scrappers forum in the top powerset single target DPS thread awhile ago.
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Originally Posted by Rad_Avenger
The Follow Up / Focus / Slash attack chain is 10% higher on a Brute?
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Running the chain:
Follow Up
Focus
Slash
Assuming you are very tight with your clicks, and with no lag, achieves triple stacking on Focus & Slash and double stacking on Follow Up.
Assuming 95% enhancement for damage (and the ridiculous 313% recharge you need in Follow Up ...), this nets us a comparison that has the Scrapper and Brute dead even at 68% Fury. The Scrapper can pull ahead with +DAM in the build and Assault, while the Brute pulls ahead by squeezing out more Fury. 68% is not unusual, IMO, but does take some effort to keep up.
That's the absolute best chain available. But in the land of reality, we're not running FU/Focus/Slash, right? Because holy heck that's a lot of recharge. Of course, if you're running a toon with a damage aura, as a Scrapper you can leverage the triple stack better. So it might be worth a bit of an investment.
At lower levels, FU/Focus/Slash/Strike is a lot easier to achieve and grants double stacking of FU. Brute and Scrapper are dead even at 57% Fury, which frankly I can do in my sleep.
So ... I guess my conclusion is ... at the highest levels of recharge, a Claws Scrapper should be able to pull ahead in an average situation, but a high-Fury Brute can pound 'em a bit. But at realistic level of recharge, at 70% fury, the Brute has about a 7% damage advantage.
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Just a thought. |
Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
Didn't said that it wouldn't be a pain in the ***, just that it was probably a better way to convey what they wanted but definitely not easy. |
As I recall, back when weapon redraw didn't modify your dps in quite the way it does now, your attack with redraw (or maybe it was attack after the redraw) was sped up slightly (this is history, not the current state of affairs)
If it's possible to speed up an animation for redraw, and if the upcoming momentum mechanic works the way it is currently imagined by the forums, perhaps most animations can just be "slowed" a bit.
Going a bit further here, time manipulation might give players tools to modify nearly all animations.
Going even further... meh, I guess I'm out on enough of a limb with just that.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Well I have Scrappers beating Brutes at 75% Fury running FU-Focus-Slash with the triple stack FU on Focus and double on Slash and FU itself by, ohhhhh say 6%. Counting in Crits at 10% of course.
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Originally Posted by Rad_Avenger
Assuming you are very tight with your clicks, and with no lag, achieves triple stacking on Focus & Slash and double stacking on Follow Up.
Assuming 95% enhancement for damage (and the ridiculous 313% recharge you need in Follow Up ...), this nets us a comparison that has the Scrapper and Brute dead even at 68% Fury. The Scrapper can pull ahead with +DAM in the build and Assault, while the Brute pulls ahead by squeezing out more Fury. 68% is not unusual, IMO, but does take some effort to keep up. |
I don't think anyone is on a high horse here- so you should probably take it down a notch there, kitten. It's not that serious. Let's take a chill pill and relax for a moment.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality