Free-form power selection suggestion

My post on this from elsewhere:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coolio If the devs did go for a Freeform base for an AT, then it would probably look a little like the AE Custom Critter Creator. With a single Primary and Secondary, but not anything clashing. In fact the code to do this is ingame already, the AE Custom Critter Creator. Add that to the Current Character Creator for that special AT for the rest of the options... Body, Costume, Powers, Register... And you have a Freeform custom character. NB: With the earlier pick anything double primary/double secondary it was fun to make an AR/Merc's MM, 12 attacks, 6 pets, 2 pet upgrades and a gimped Serum. It made a great AE mission SuperSoldier and the Merc Medic was kept busy. Sadly this AE option is nerfed now (Forced 1 primary, 1 secondary.), but Imho MM's should also have ranged attacks as secondary powersets. This ranged secondary would up their damage output and surviveability but would offer them no defense or resistance to incoming damage.

And an Arcanaville response to it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coolio If the devs did go for a Freeform base for an AT, then it would probably look a little like the AE Custom Critter Creator. Quote: Originally Posted by Arcanaville Probably more than a little.

Actually a free-form power selection system might work for a superhero MMO like this if the Devs decided to go with a points based advantage/disadvantage system similar to how the Champions table-top RPG works. That system has worked pretty well for 30 years because it prevents characters from being overpowered by balancing them with significant vulnerabilities.

But of course there'd be two small problems adapting that to CoH:

1) As others have said it'd probably be less effort to create an entirely brand new MMO at this point than it would be to retroactively make a free-form system like that work here. This by itself is more than enough to kill this idea.

2) People who play MMOs almost universally hate anything that could be considered a character weakness or disadvantage. Basically no one would accept having to assign their characters a form of "Kryptonite" that could hurt them. People who play table top RPGs are generally mature enough to accept these kinds of things. But in a MMO? No, it'll never happen. Remember how completely whiny people were when they had to deal with Kheldians being vulnerable to Voids/Quants? It'd be like that times 1000. Such a MMO would fail in just a few months tops because 95% of players would instantly balk at it.

TL;DR version: a totally free-form power system for a superhero MMO sounds like a good idea on paper. But it reality it'll probably never happen successfully without -some- level of structure that an AT/class system provides.

I love the concept, at its core, but I am used to how things are and do not want to Redo every single one of my characters. This would be akin to the changes made to SWG and we know what's happening to that game come December. The player base is used to how things are and this sweeping change would upset quite a few players. The vocal majority here on the forums represent a small portion of the game's populace. Most don't even read the patch notes for an update and dive right in at launch.

No, what is suggested here would be great for a new game not the current. We're at the 7 year plus mark and to shock the player base now would be catastrophic to the brand name with new MMOs on the horizon. Keeping the loyal base content with new powers, defined within the current setup, is a safer step. I like the idea for something new, but I would prefer this game as it is.

I think a free-form thing could be made for existing archetypes but on a limitation basis.

A blaster could only pick powers from existing blast sets. He could not take tanker or scrapper primary or secondaries.

If I make a Blaster and I want power bolts as my tier1 primary and full auto as my tier 9 primary I could do that. What I could not do is mix in a footstomp from the brute or tanker choice of powers or anything outside of blaster sets as a tier 9.

If I made a scrapper I could thunder kick as my tier 1 primary and siphon life as my tier 5 primary.

I see this kind of thing come up quite often, both here and for other games - that a classless system is better than a class based one. And while it *might* be true in pnp (though even there I'm not convinced), I've played a fair few computer games, both on- and offline without classes, and not one of them has even close to the variety of playstyle that CoX does. Why? One word, balance.

Currently, in CoX, there are...772 combinations of primary and secondary powersets, unless I've screwed up my calculations - likely, but even so, it's not going to be that far out. And overall, they're reasonably well balanced. Not perfectly, but there are few glaring outliers.

If we were to have "free" choice as to powers, then taking any 18 powers (hence matching the number available to primary and secondary, I'm ignoring pools and APPs cos it's complicated), then there would be around 700 powers available (maybe I've slightly overestimated), giving around 1.3x10^51 possible combinations. Thats 13 followed by 50 zeros for those who don't get maths. Or 1.7x10^48 times as many as there are now. Now you have to balance every single one of them. Frankly there's only one way to do so - make all of them effectively the same, with only cosmetic differences.

CoX works, and has such great variety in playstyle, not just between ATs, but within them, especially with support ATs, because it can balance on a powerset level, rather than a power level. Super Strength can have a seemingly overpowered ability in the form of Footstomp because it has no other AoE. If you could take Footstomp, Fire Sword Circle and Lightning Rod in the same build, then they'd have to be much weaker, else the character would be stupidly overpowered, thus removing what makes Footstomp interesting. Force Field defenders can softcap a team's defense because they can't heal what little damage that gets through. Let them take heals, even weaker ones, and you've again broken the balance. Thus FF powers would be weakened. Every unique or standout power would have to be normalised, hence destroying variety even as you try to create it.

tldr: /unsigned

Hmm, I got excited thinking about that so thought I might try some theorycraft...

Controllers:

The first thing to pop into mind is 'Blast/Buff'. Controllers never made sense to me...an AT with the power to manipulate minds, ice, fire, etc...but didn't have the talent to form a ball of ice/fire in their hand and toss it? Well, maybe later when they get epics...But consider this an example set. Note that nothing in this set works with containment which is fine since Repulsion Bomb, Thunder Storm and other powers in current Buff secondaries don't get containment damage.

-Artillery Set
--Burst
--Caltrops
--Triage Beacon
--Acid Mortar
--Slug
--Forcefield Generator
--M30 Grenade
--Seeker Drones
--Time Bomb

Slightly less drastic an example...

-Support Quiver
--Snap Shot
--Entangling Arrow
--Flash Arrow
--Glue Arrow
--Aimed Shot
--Poison Gas Arrow
--Fistful of Arrows
--Disruption Arrow
--EMP Arrow

Notice that this AT would get the same attack choices as Mastermind would from their primaries...

Get rid of some of their secondary's support for self defense. Sounds like a perfect match for them.

-Icy Insurrection
--Infrigidate
--Ice Shield
--Snow Storm
--Frozen Armor
--Frostwork
--Arctic Fog
--Glacial Armor
--Sleet
--Energy Absorption

Notice, in relation to a Defender whose buff will always be completely intact, a Controller or Corruptor using a variant secondary would buff far less than even an equivalent corruptor at the cost of going a separate direction. Consider this if you want a supporting character that can also deal damage and can still solo in a straight-forward manner.

One thing that always annoys the crap out of me is how armor sets are often initially designed with Tanker/Scrapper/Brute in mind and the Stalker version being an afterthough. Well, for these variants, they would most likely be *FAR* better on a Stalker than on the other 2. Because of the way self mitigation is structured, you'll always get better results for a character with more HP or higher caps. With active mitigation, it favors a non-DPS playstyle...that is to say, a Brute would probably rather choose a set with toggles/clicks that simply help him survive and for good reason. A stalker already scratches to keep himself alive, active mitigation supplemented with passive relies far less on better HP and more on burst effectiveness.

-Mind Trickery
--Hide/Quick Healing
--Mind Over Body
--Mesmerize
--Indomitable Will
--Confuse
--Precognition (Heightened Senses)
--Dominate
--Revive Mind (Resurgence)
--Strength of Mind/Will

I have to say, on a Brute/Scrapper, this is far inferior than the regular WP set. Even on a Stalker, without reconstruction, you'd be hard pressed to get as much passive mitigation from this. But that doesn't stop this set from being overpowered for the AT...it is, for Stalker...just far and away more powerful than even Ninjutsu, IMO...but then Ninjutsu isn't that much of a passive mitigation set.

It astounds me that people think this is a realistic suggestion. As a though experiment hypothesis, I really have nothing against it. Honest. But as an actual suggestion?

Let me put it like this: The first video I ever saw of City of Heroes was back in Y2K, the year 2000, and it was a gameplay video of a working game with powers and graphics. As I understand it, the game was slated for a 2002 release or thereabout, before the developers had to rip out their existing powers system and institute Archetypes, instead. This set them back a year to two years, and that's a full development team working on JUST releasing a title. No support for an existing title, no making updates or fixing bugs. JUST working to release a game, and it delayed them by at least a year.

And now we're talking about retro-fitting what didn't work back at Release into a game with over twice the powers, many, many, MANY more powers-related subsystems and the subscribing, paying players of which expect and demand regular updates... And we don't see how shutting down development of everything else for a year or two is a problem? Take power customization, for example: When BABs first spoke about this, he explained that it was doable, but would require the art team's full attention for two or three Issues totalling about nine months to a year during which time we wouldn't see any new art additions. That's no new enemies, no new costumes, no new powers, no new locations, no new props. THAT was considered unacceptable several times over at the time. How unacceptable do you think this would be? How about "very?"

---

I've never been a fan of free-form or points-buy build systems, myself, just to give a little context. I like my choices to be simpler, and a class system does that. I also like my choices to be large and immediately obvious. Not just a ranged character who's only kind of ranged but also kind of melee and kind of a controller, where you have to strike the exact balance between all things and if you're off in one direction you start dying but you never know exactly why. If I pick Melee, I want melee, not "somewhat melee."

If we need more options, then these can be added to the existing system as either more ATs, more powersets or more regular and epic power pools. Sure, there will always be things you can't make in a class-based system, but if the system offers enough choices, there won't be all that many.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Or, in other words, pretty much what the PvPers accuse Issue 13 of being.

If you want a Tankmage, roll a Kheldian.

/thread