Free-form power selection suggestion
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2011-07-14 21:25 in Suggestions and Ideas
/unsigned
Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.
Free-form power selection would, without question, lead to obscenely overpowered builds. I don't care how much you scale the power effects, there are extremely smart people playing this game who will figure out ways to break the system to their advantage.
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Free form power selection was already tried once in the very beginning stages of the game. Just like some of our competition that did similar things, this leads to overpowered builds, and a whole lot of people with the same builds. In short, it doesn't give you more options, it ends up giving you less.
Echo what Spad said about you and Kheldians. The AT is complex, difficult and certainly not for people who like a simple button mashy game. Peacebringers have been shown to be sub par, but they are far from non-functioning. Warshades are some of the most powerful characters in the game.
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I may have bashed Khelds a little too much, and I apologize for that. I don't like the AT. 
But my point with the entire TL;DR post is that a *balanced* system can be created which does *not* lead to cookie-cutter builds. A support character cannot be the same as a melee character cannot be the same as a tank, etc. The absolute worst case for this free-form system is that there may be a minimum of six superior builds, with infinite possiblity for customization around those. More likely, it will enable a slew of new hybrid archetypes that the game hasn't seen before. And those can all be balanced both proactively and retroactively if problems are found.
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That means absolutely nothing. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
But my point with the entire TL;DR post is that a *balanced* system can be created which does *not* lead to cookie-cutter builds.
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The fact that they don't have to be cookie-cutter builds does nothing to change the fact that once the players figure out the most effective combinations, the cookie cutter builds are going to happen anyway.
Go look in the Brute section and tell me how many threads you find on the first 2 pages about SS/Fire and farming. We already have cookie cutter builds, and a lot of people are playing the same thing. If your suggestion were done, I'd give it a month, tops, before some intrepid power gamer figures out he best combo and everyone is playing that instead of SS/Fire brutes.
You're completely discounting the fact that people interested in being the most powerful they can be will play whatever has been proven to be the most effective. All your suggestion does is enable those builds that people are going to use anyway to be even more broken.
It also completely ignores the fact that this idea will be a HUGE amount of work.
You're essentially saying the devs should rebuild everything about how the ATs function and balance against each other from scratch. And that juts plain ISN'T going to happen.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I do actually see quite a lot of other Brutes besides SS/FA in game. I think a lot of people do play them and it is only natural that the forums are full of questions about them, since the forums is where you go to learn about stuff, including farming. Despite that, people play other brutes and other ATs.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Go look in the Brute section and tell me how many threads you find on the first 2 pages about SS/Fire and farming. We already have cookie cutter builds, and a lot of people are playing the same thing. If your suggestion were done, I'd give it a month, tops, before some intrepid power gamer figures out he best combo and everyone is playing that instead of SS/Fire brutes.
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Pointing to SS/FA brutes is actually a vindication for the OP. A build like SS/FA can exist, yet most people still play other things.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You're completely discounting the fact that people interested in being the most powerful they can be will play whatever has been proven to be the most effective. All your suggestion does is enable those builds that people are going to use anyway to be even more broken.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You're essentially saying the devs should rebuild everything about how the ATs function and balance against each other from scratch. And that juts plain ISN'T going to happen.
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I absolutely love how people trot these out whenever attempting to defend some half baked suggestion that obviously doesn't take into account the basic design philosophy of the game or the amount of work it would take to implement.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Just like Power Customization ISN'T going to happen. Just like inherent Fitness, ISN'T going to happen.
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This suggestion falls into both categories. It would take an incredible amount of work to implement, likely sucking up the powers team time for two issues or more (Power Customization took BABs and team almost a year to complete, and we still don't have customization for Power Pools almost two years later)
It would also take a shift in philosophy on the Dev team. Freeform selection was in the alpha versions of this game, and was ultimately nixed as it was far too easy to create both unplayable characters and overpowered characters. The AT system and current power structure which have served the game for the last seven years are a direct result of the Dev team scrapping the freeform system. Inherent Stamina was a philosophy shift, true, but not one that could have led to breaking the game.
In order for this suggestion to be even considered, they would have to commit the powers team to a large amount of work (possibly sidelining all of the new powersets they are currently working on) and there would need to be a major philosophical shift among the Dev team.
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Did Power Customization change how your characters functioned at the most basic level? No, it didn't. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Just like Power Customization ISN'T going to happen. Just like inherent Fitness, ISN'T going to happen.
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Did Inherent Fitness change how your characters function at the most basic level? No, it didn't either.
This suggestion does exactly that. It completely scraps the very foundation of the Archetype system, which is essentially rebuilding the entire character creation process of the game from the ground up. Do you REALLY think the devs are going to do that, for no better reason than because one person pointed out that they COULD?
Power Customization and Inherent Fitness happened because they didn't change anything about how the game actually works.
This idea does exactly that.
It's a staggering amount of work to do, and it changes everything about how the game works from character creation forward.
Why not just ask the devs to code a brand new game from scratch? It would probably be easier.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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That is, IMO, the practical effect of this request.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Why not just ask the devs to code a brand new game from scratch? It would probably be easier.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yes. Yes, there are cookie-cutter builds for Brutes, and for Blasters, and for Tankers, and for every archetype.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The fact that they don't have to be cookie-cutter builds does nothing to change the fact that once the players figure out the most effective combinations, the cookie cutter builds are going to happen anyway.
Go look in the Brute section and tell me how many threads you find on the first 2 pages about SS/Fire and farming. We already have cookie cutter builds, and a lot of people are playing the same thing. If your suggestion were done, I'd give it a month, tops, before some intrepid power gamer figures out he best combo and everyone is playing that instead of SS/Fire brutes. |
My point is that you can design a free-form system so that players will still have to specialize in one of the spheres of ability I outlined above. See the pretty colored graphic up there? There will be a cookie-cutter build for each of those, and for every combination of those. It's inevitable.
But that's 6 (single sphere) or 21 (two-sphere) additional cookies to choose from...plus the ability to make many, many more custom builds for those who *don't* want to use the cookie cutter. If cookie cutter builds are inevitable, isn't it best to steer the players toward as many different kinds of cookies as possible?
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| It also completely ignores the fact that this idea will be a HUGE amount of work. |
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| And that juts plain ISN'T going to happen. |
But as I stated in that other thread, those who don't speak up and offer constructive solutions have no right to complain later. I'm offering a suggestion to build up my complainer's karma for later.
This would greatly improve the game. It's not *that* difficult to do -- as I've shown, the mechanics for balance are already in the game. But it would be a drastic philosophical shift for Paragon Studios, so I have no hope that it will actually come to pass. Maybe for CoH2.
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Interesting Idea.
Don't think it would work in this game as well as you believe.
I don't think it would be as easy to implement as you think, nor trivial to balance all possible permutations that could be allowed by your suggestion. Consider how many powers are available in the game, by how many combinations that could be created from those powers.
Now.
Balance all those combinations. Modifiers alone wouldn't do that.
Set up a UI tree that would allow you to do so for every AT.
Here's an example or two of how it could easily become unbalanced:
I'd love to make a /Fire defensive scrapper hanging onto shield charge! Woo hoo. No Temperature Protection, let me get AAO. No Rise of the Phoenix, Drop in Shield charge! So dmg boost from AAO, hit build up. hit Fiery Embrace. Shield Charge FTW! (not over powered in the least, eh?) Awesome baby!Shall I go on?
Or inversely: Instead of mainly being Fire, let's make it SD. Why grab Grant Cover when you can include Fiery Embrace instead? Why grab Confront when you can just make it RAGE! Huzzah! All that fire dmg+rage goodness topped with a heaping of Fiery Embrace at the Soft cap? Sweet Jebus, I might wet my pants with the thought of those two toons.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Oh. I had another thought. What self-respecting brute wouldn't find a way to get their own personal version of Fulcrum shift into their build at least once, if not twice!
Can you say keep me(the brute)damage capped for the Win!!!!
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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It's always funny when someone tries to trot out this as an argument. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Just like Power Customization ISN'T going to happen. Just like inherent Fitness, ISN'T going to happen.
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Please post a link to even ONE redname that ever said that Power Customization isn't going to happen.
Well?
We're waiting . . .
Oh that's right you can't post that link because the devs never said that.
Inherent Fitness? Yeah one Dev (who I believe doesn't even work here anymore, Please correct me if I'm wrong) once said he'd rather get rid of Stamina altogether than make Fitness inherent. But that was just him voicing his opinion, not him making a policy decision on what will be allowed in the game.
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Especially since Power Customization and freeform power selection are not even remotely similar in terms of impact on the game. Ditto with Inherent Fitness. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
It's always funny when someone tries to trot out this as an argument.
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| Yeah one Dev (who I believe doesn't even work here anymore, Please correct me if I'm wrong) once said he'd rather get rid of Stamina altogether than make Fitness inherent. But that was just him voicing his opinion, not him making a policy decision on what will be allowed in the game. |
It was Castle. And he did say that. I suspected he got overruled on that and it played a part in his departure, but that was debunked. (that it had anything to do with him leaving, that is)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I just have to chime in with a big old /unsigned!
How to make free form power selection work:
- Have only one set of powers - "Ranged," "Support," "Defense," "resistance," "Control," "Pets."
- Have all the powersets we have NOW eliminated as anything but graphics options
You can now balance the game around any permutation of powers the players can come up with.
OK, so you've essentially eliminated the control-heavy Ice Blast. And (fortunately, in my view) dumped Illusion. Katana plays no differently from Kinetic Melee or Super Strength. Fire and Dark armors play the exact same. Broadsword gets a ranged attack just like Spines, but the one in Spines no longer acts as an immobilize. And you've cut a swath of destruction through Defenders, Corruptors, Controllers and Masterminds, because FF plays no differently from TA, Storm, Dark or Empathy.
Fun!
/unsigned
I dunno... I think, if this went through sufficient beta testing, and it was properly balanced, it could work. for example, if you chose one primary sphere, and could choose powers at varying levels based on the strength of the power and how close to the main sphere it is.
Example:
"Jimmy" choose defense as his main sphere. He can chose a first- or second-tier power from defense, and a first-tier power from melee or pets. later, at the sixth or seventh power, Jimmy can choose from ranged or control powers, shifted down to lower-level tiers. later, at say, the 15th or 16th power, he can choose from ranged or control sets, shifted to lower levels. Finally, by the 20th power, good ol' Jim can finally get some support powers.
Couple that with a limit on freestyles and a level-50 unlock prerequisite, and it could work.
/Signed
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
I dunno... I think, if this went through sufficient beta testing, and it was properly balanced, it could work. for example, if you chose one primary sphere, and could choose powers at varying levels based on the strength of the power and how close to the main sphere it is.
Example: "Jimmy" choose defense as his main sphere. He can chose a first- or second-tier power from defense, and a first-tier power from melee or pets. later, at the sixth or seventh power, Jimmy can choose from ranged or control powers, shifted down to lower-level tiers. later, at say, the 15th or 16th power, he can choose from ranged or control sets, shifted to lower levels. Finally, by the 20th power, good ol' Jim can finally get some support powers. Couple that with a limit on freestyles and a level-50 unlock prerequisite, and it could work. /Signed |
You fail to realize that this was beta tested by the devs before the game launched and they decided it was a horrible idea.
Then just a few years ago the same company that created this game tried freeform power selection in their new version of this game and guess what? It was still a horrible idea and they brought back and implemented Archetypes.
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If I were suggesting such a free-form system, powers would definitely be grouped. It'd be rather dumb not to, in the context of CoX's powers, since so many powers do the same thing. You can't have Dull Pain, Hoarfrost and Earth's Embrace...they're all just heals with +HP. Then there's mechanical difficulties like choosing Shadowfall, Steamy mist and Arctic Fog, all team stealth AoEs that are exclusive so can't be used together.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Interesting Idea.
Don't think it would work in this game as well as you believe. I don't think it would be as easy to implement as you think, nor trivial to balance all possible permutations that could be allowed by your suggestion. Consider how many powers are available in the game, by how many combinations that could be created from those powers. Now. Balance all those combinations. Modifiers alone wouldn't do that. Set up a UI tree that would allow you to do so for every AT. Here's an example or two of how it could easily become unbalanced: I'd love to make a /Fire defensive scrapper hanging onto shield charge! Woo hoo. No Temperature Protection, let me get AAO. No Rise of the Phoenix, Drop in Shield charge! So dmg boost from AAO, hit build up. hit Fiery Embrace. Shield Charge FTW! (not over powered in the least, eh?) Awesome baby!Shall I go on? |
So, hypothetically, if a freeform system were being tossed around, there'd be no way for you to pick powers from Fire Armor and Shield Defense...unless you made your character's primary Defense/Defense and picked those as primary and secondary...and even then, I'd probably limit choosing 2 of the same type sets on account of 2 pet sets, 2 support sets or 2 control sets being ridiculous in specific instances.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Oh. I had another thought. What self-respecting brute wouldn't find a way to get their own personal version of Fulcrum shift into their build at least once, if not twice!
Can you say keep me(the brute)damage capped for the Win!!!! |
So, not only would your Brute have to choose buffing as one of his focused traits, he'd only gain access to Fulcrum Shift after choosing 3-4 other powers in the Kinetic pool. This would limit choices so one couldn't simply choose the best powers of every pool as well as burn choices so fewer extraordinarily powerful builds were possible.
But that's the way I see it. Free-form power selection is more for concept than power-gaming, so you'd finally be able to make your Dual Pistol guy with super reflexes and a katana. It's not specifically for making a character with as many nukes as possible...or substituting crappier powers with the best of another set.
So, if you want Fulcrum Shift on your Brute, be prepared to pick up Siphon Power, Increased Density, Speed Boost and Repulse as well. Or if you're trying to combine Fiery Armor and Shields, you'd have to *focus* on those sets to unlock the higher powers, most likely at the expense of *anything* else.
You're "version" isn't what the OP is suggesting. You're suggesting something that's much more limiting.
I'm sure there are ways of "trying to make it balanced" but at 7 years into the game it's hard for me to see the devs make that kind of investment to do such a drastic change to the AT/Power structure within the game. They would have to look at every permutation and make sure it's balanced across the board. And that would mean tweaking and changing lots of powers. They would have to make sure that no one could "game the system". They would have to create a UI that would allow for this. They would, more then likely, have to stop all other development of content, powers, etc. to accomplish this task. Think the general population would be up for that? I know you would. I don't think they would.
Even attempting to change ONE power in the epic sets created such a back lash, could you imagine what the entire player base would do if you suddenly ripped out the current power selection system and replaced it with a new one? Yes there would be some very happy folks who can min/max to their hearts content. Yes there would be some who might be able to make their "vision come true" but for the general population? Not a chance. Multiply the uproar by a 100, if not a 1000.
Again, no matter how well you "present it", "slice it", "dice it" I just don't envision it happening, no matter how AWESOME you think it would be.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Oh, and as for my brute example. I would be happy to take Transfusion, Siphon Power, Siphon Speed and Transference on a brute to get Fulcrum Shift! Why bother with a travel power or an epic power set? Those would cover me just fine for CAPPED dmg on a brute and a quick end refill. Thank you very much. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Yeah but how are you at making a useless character? You know the type.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Oh, and as for my brute example. I would be happy to take Transfusion, Siphon Power, Siphon Speed and Transference on a brute to get Fulcrum Shift! Why bother with a travel power or an epic power set? Those would cover me just fine for CAPPED dmg on a brute and a quick end refill. Thank you very much.
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"I'm a pure Healorz. I have no offensive abilities or buff/debuffs. I just stand in the back and spam Healz while mooching off of everyone else."
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All that post is pretty pointless since no one is asking the devs to implement this in the next two issues...or five issues, etc.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Again, no matter how well you "present it", "slice it", "dice it" I just don't envision it happening, no matter how AWESOME you think it would be.
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Besides, I actually like the AT system.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Oh, and as for my brute example. I would be happy to take Transfusion, Siphon Power, Siphon Speed and Transference on a brute to get Fulcrum Shift! Why bother with a travel power or an epic power set? Those would cover me just fine for CAPPED dmg on a brute and a quick end refill. Thank you very much.
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But I'd be willing to sacrifice that. For my melee defender, taking the entire MA pool, tough/weave and a good deal of either SR or Inv but only the essentials. Leaves me with a few power choices for buffing, I'd just need to imagine what a 'pressure point' debuff/buff would be and pick 3-4 of those powers, likely not getting to the tier 8 or 9.
The thought process works when you're not actively trying to break the game...but if you are, yes, you'd be able to make really powerful characters...just like now.
People have suggested that we try free-form power selection as a subscribers perk with the 'Freedom' initiative. Others have noted that this was tried in beta and rejected for balance reasons.
Mastermind:Tank:Note that these multipliers exist even for archetypes that don't normally get those abilities, because those abilities may exist in power pools. That's why blasters have a defense multiplier which affects the pool powers Tough, Weave, and Maneuvers, even if there are no true defenses in the blaster powersets.Well, beta was a long time ago and I have no idea what went on there. I think we should examine the possibilities of free-form power selection again. I believe it's possible to create a balanced system that veterans of the game will enjoy. And I believe that in part, the code to do it already exists.
First let's review how the current archetypes work.
Every archetype gets a primary and secondary. Some archetypes share powersets, and when that happens one is usually better than the other. That's because every archetype has multipliers that determine their effectiveness at every type of power.
I don't know the current archetype multipliers, but for reference let's say they look like this:
Blaster:
(Caveat: I'm not certain whether there is a pet multiplier for every archetype; if there is it may default to 1.0 to keep the Patron powers even.)
Others have said that CoX character building is essentially a tree skill system. But it isn't -- or at least, it doesn't have to be. It's a characteristics system, where instead of characteristics like Strength, Intelligence and Charisma you get hidden multipliers determining your ranged, melee, and defensive abilities.
The thing about characteristic systems is that they are easily balanced by making them exclusionary; Fighters don't get Intelligence and Wizards don't get Strength. I can best illustrate that for CoX with a chart:
Again, one could argue whether 'Pets' should be in there. Without it this becomes a five-color exclusionary system like Magic: The Gathering. But it's best to keep it, I think. Also, the placement of the abilities could be argued over; I could see swapping the positions of Support and Control, for example, which would better explain the Ice Blast powerset. But this is a first stab at describing the CoX system as exclusionary spheres of abilities.
As you can see, the current archetypes are formed mostly from abilities that are adjecent to each other on the diagram. Their powers are complements, and they are, in general, bad at doing anything from the opposing abilities. There are exceptions -- and those exceptions illustrate the balancing problems in the system. Masterminds are Pets+Support, and are notoriously overpowered. Dominators are Ranged/Melee + Control and have gone through several attempts to balance them. Kheldians combine abilities from several spheres and are so hard to balance it was apparently easiest to just nerf them into nigh unplayability. But most of the archetypes stick to two adjacent spheres of ability, with one or two powers borrowed from other spheres for flavor.
The way to balance a free-form power selection system is to expand the ability multipliers from the archetypes to the individual powers.
Let's take a hypothetical free-form character. I choose to build her as a melee defender, with a pet power; she's a fighting shaman with a spirit guide. The initial multipliers for my character, for every ability type, is 1.0. She is equally good at melee, defense, buff/debuff -- everything.
But every power I select will carry with it multipliers. I take Howling Twilight, which adds +0.2 Support, -0.3 Defense, -0.1 Melee and -0.1 Pets, because Defense is the opposite of Support on the chart and Melee and Pets are adjacent to it. I select Eagle's Claw, which adds +0.2 Melee, -0.3 Control, -0.1 Support and -0.1 Pets. And I take Phantasm, which adds +0.2 Pets, -0.3 Ranged, -0.1 Support and -0.1 Melee.
Just with those three powers, my character's multipliers are:As I choose more and more powers for my shaman, I will be trading off Melee, Support, and Pet multipliers. Maybe I'll find a way to balance the three. But the system can be designed so that the end result will be decreased abilities across the board, especially if I delve into another ability sphere. And it should be designed so that the base archetypes remain unchallenged; their multipliers will always be higher in their specialty than any free-form character. (Easiest way to do that is to clip the free-form multipliers at 1.3, or whatever.)
Maybe I'll want to give her a single defense power. Oh, no, tankmage! But that defense power will be very weak because the multiplier will be very low, and it will reduce the efficiency of my Support powers. The more I generalize, the weaker my character will be, until I'm getting beaten up by Khelds.
This system also allows tweaks on certain powers. Howling Twilight is very powerful; because of that, perhaps it gives -0.15 to its opposing spheres. Permafrost is a very, very weak power, but maybe it gives a bonus of +0.4 Defense multiplier. Maybe there's never a drawback for selecting Buildup, because it shows up everywhere. The tools available for balancing this system are extensive, powerful, and precise.
Can you build a non-viable character this way, one that's inferior to all other archetypes and incapable of soloing? Of course you can. That's why we limit the free-form system to subscribers and veterans and put warning labels on it. Freedom should include the freedom to fail, even in character builds, for without the possibility of failure there's no thrill in success.
All that is needed to implement a free-form system in this way is to add multiplier values to the all existing powers. Then build the GUIs to construct powersets out of all the powers available, and a way to select those custom powersets at character creation.
That's all non-trivial; I'm not saying this would be easy. But it is far from 'impossible'. And it would be a terrific addition to the game.
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