Free-form power selection suggestion

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Nothing is impossible, but I believe to do this in a way that doesn't do some of the really damaging things I've seen in other implementations would require a more complex system than you're describing. The problem is that the powers we have contain, for lack of a better way of putting it, multidimensional qualitative benefits: things that are very difficult to value in a linear scale. Its very hard to quantify how much damage mitigation is equal to how much offense, for example, much less support powers. So its likely any such system would have to make "buckets" of benefits and allow players to independently fill the different buckets. So you could not buy your ranged blaster the scrapper secondaries at any modifier delta, say.

The custom critter system works on a more or less linear scale, and that only really works because the powersets themselves still contain the maximum diversity into logical containers. Its actually trying to fake a multidimensional system with a linear one, and is getting away with it mostly because "good enough" is easier there than it would be for players making their own characters.

Dear god no. The HERO system is not a well-balanced system. The HERO system is a system that offers GMs the tools to balance content against the players by ensuring that nearly every player power option includes an opportunity for the GMs to cause trouble for them. But that requires an intelligent GM to react to the players dynamically.

The system itself is, in computer-controlled MMO terms, incredibly horribly unbalanced. And in fact the HERO system is self-aware of this fact: it specifically warns GMs where the dragons in the system are, and even warns them that there are certain things the rules technically allow that they should feel free to completely disallow if it makes a mockery of their sessions. That's a rule that all PnP games really have, and its why most PnP games primary safeguard against munchkins is the GM, not the rules structure. A good PNP rulesystem gets close enough for the GM to get the rest of the way. MMOs don't have that safety net, and their systems need to be far more air tight.

Important to note: PnP systems first priority is to offer GMs enough tools to make controlled, reasonably balanced gaming sessions. Mathematical rigor is not a priority. But in a computer game, numerical balance has to replace GM balance, because there's no GM (smart enough to take over). The fact that the HERO system is, by numerical standards, incredibly unbalanced is not a knock: its an observation about a facet of the system that isn't critical to its success. The system is flexible enough that every GM running HERO campaigns out there can tweak the system to match their player and session requirements. The system has enough options to encompass all of that play, but no one actually uses them all to their maximum potential. That's a good thing. But in an MMO, its one ruleset to rule them all.

Not even remotely. I13 just changed PvP, a very small aspect of the game.

Imagine the i13 changes across the board, plus the removal of the AT system and replacement with some freeform system, plus the removal of the enhancement system and replacement with some random as hell gear system.

That's what the NGE was.

But to hear many PvPers tell it, it was the only aspect which mattered, thus my choice of phrasing.

I am not wrong. They did not even consider Power Customization back in 2002. Had they, they may have designed the system differently. You mention concepts the devs discussed in 2006-2008 which BABs communicated with us. I can understand how you may have misunderstood what I was speaking about, but in context my quote was a response to your comment about work done in the very early stages of this games design and I clearly spelled that out when I added, "Neither of those points mean a lot 9 years later, just like the fact that they failed to make a good classless system a decade ago is not relevant, since almost everyone who would be involved in designing one now is different."

I disagree. As I said earlier, done well, it would fit in seamlessly with the current game. Note, I would never advocate for a limitless choice system. When I discuss a freeform system, I picture something with limits, many of which would be similar to what we currently have.

You should keep in mind that I already said in this thread, "I am not really for this idea. I like the AT system and am plenty happy with the choices we already get." That does not mean I think the idea should be mocked and called impossible. This is the kind of work I actually love doing though. Most of the foundation is laid, now it requires significant work to frame up and finish. Of course, it is more work than I would do just for kicks (I have done similar work on game systems I got to actually play, but fully fleshing this out without even a potential payoff, seems masochistic). But I could start a thought process (although all the other systems I have designed have had the good give and take feedback of a friend or three, which makes it more interesting, rewarding, as well as better developed).

I envision maintaining ATs or at the least a structure that is extremely similar (maintaining current ATs would be my first choice, but in any concept phase you should at least explore other options). As an example of something similar, we can envision power groupings as they currently exist for ATs (leaving out the VEATs and HEATs for now):
Range Damage, Melee Damage, Mixed Damage (we can use this for both dom and blaster secondaries, just for simplicity), Buff/Debuff, Personal Mitigation, Control, Pet Summoning
Looking at those, we could consider the possibility that in a freeform environment, Mixed Damage need not exist, since the ability to mix powers from Melee Damage and Range Damage will likely already exist. We might want to purify some sets, taking things like Build Up, Power Boost, and Taunt out of the Damage sets and either creating a new Utility set or sets. We might re-organize some things, taking the attacks out of Pet Summoning and placing them into Ranged Damage. Pool powers may be rearranged and some powers could be merged into existing sets. VEAT and HEAT powers could either get their own sets, because those are story based powersets, or they could be merged into their appropriate categories.

I'd likely keep some form of thematic grouping of powers (fire, ice, dark, leeching, poison, firearms, etc.) or at least I would explore the concept before deciding against it. I may not make it the only method as it is currently, but I'd strongly encourage it with the new system. It may be easier to get powers with the same theme as powers you already have or some powers may have a requirement to have x number of powers in the same theme (in order to take Fulcrum Shift, you would need at least 4 other powers that leeched or buffed offense (Siphon Speed, Twilight Grasp, Fortitude, and Siphon Life maybe). I may place a limit on the number of possible themes you could take powers from, or I may just discourage choosing too many themes by adding drawbacks to doing so or just by incentivizing sticking to a small number of themes.

I would choose to keep some form of tiering of powers in place. I'd want to ensure that bread and butter powers are available early and that some of them were mandatory, or at least nearly mandatory. The current system does a reasonable job of this and it is an important element of design. Certain powers would have level limits and/or require a certain amount of lower tier powers taken first. I might enforce taking more Damage powers than the current system does through tiering.

I'd likely limit the number of sets you could choose from. I might even make some sets mutually exclusive or, less restrictively, make it so choosing one set or by choosing a certain combination of sets you may be limited in how much of another set you can take. A simple possibility to consider based on the current AT system: You choose one set as a primary and one as a secondary and maybe we add the possibility to choose one as a tertiary. The tertiary set rules would be significantly more restricted (possibly including any of the following, outright limited power choices, limited tier level, limited ability to choose outside of thematic guides, limited effect of chosen powers, etc.). In keeping with current ATs, we could limit Ranged Damage and Personal Mitigation, choosing Ranged Damage means Personal Mitigation cannot be a primary or secondary choice (and vice versa). Maybe we would limit Personal Mitigation and Control similarly. A lot would need to be thought about in this venue.

All of the above so far has ignored the ground level of ATs, their base mods or stats. Would we create a system where people choose a current AT base which then limits the primaries/secondaries they could choose? Maybe a point system of some kind? What about inherents like fury and domination and criticals?There would need to be a lot of brainstorming and working on ideas and rehashing of ideas here, just like in all facets of any freeform concept.

If I were creating it to add to this game, my goals would be: Do not invalidate any current character; plan big, but release small and steady, and be willing to say here we stop, go no further. I'll say again, done well, a current AT based character would be no better or worse than a "freeform" made character. I'd have a system laid out that in principle could totally replace the current character creation system, but I'd release it in bites as small as possible while still keeping the current creation system online as well; this way current users are not jarred by a totally new creation/advancement system and you get to test smaller pieces of the system and thus get a better judgement into how far you should go. This is the type of system where I would in some ways be more restrictive than current Dev designed sets are, at least at first release (which is another reason to keep the current system online, as it may allow for options a freeform system cannot). As an example, a Claws or Spines scrapper may be impossible to craft in a freeform system at first, better to err on the side of caution then allow people to craft melee/armored based characters with that type of range power in a freeform system.

That is a basic rundown of some places where I would start discussion and design layout. Plenty of concerns exist about such a system and each of them would need to be addressed. The longer you get to look at it, the more you may think of and can make conscious choices about. Peer review would be huge, after such a thing would be laid out and worked on and hammered around, getting some outside looks into it would be vital.

When you make stuff up, it makes you difficult to converse with. Perhaps you should re-read the multiple acknowledgements I and the OPer have made that this would be a large and difficult undertaking. Is my position too reasonable to argue against that it forces you to argue with shadows of your own devising? I'd encourage you to stop being extremist and consider that there is likely a place between, "I could write the system in week," and "Even after 3 years and thousands of man hours, no such system is possible."

Actually, the modular, team based structure Paragon Studios has is perfectly set-up for exactly this type of long-term work while still maintaining steady content releases. I imagine that is one of the benefits they saw in making such a disruptive organizational change. That does not mean I think it is necessarily worth doing a more freeform system, but I do think it is worth considering.

Just because so many have failed, does not mean it is not possible. However, I want to stress that I agree with some of your points. I would still have strong limiters in place if I were to design such a system.

First, I mostly agree with the sentiment as I like the current system very much. However, it is very much possible to gimp yourself in the current system. Defenders who never take an attack beyond the first, armored players who do not realize how valuable mez protection is, and Controllers who skip the single target Hold are three I still see to this day. This is to say nothing of the countless poor slotting choices allowed and made by many, many players.

That being said, I feel we have TONS of options currently, especially when you take into consideration temp powers like the Revolver and Gabriel's hammer. Knowing little of the financials, long-term design goals, or general community desire for such a system, I will not judge whether or not more freeform power selection should be worked on. I do think it is a viable topic for discussion and suggestion.

I agree that PnP design has looser balance requirements thanks to GM fiat. I do not agree that is impossible in an MMO to give more freedom in power choices than CoH currently does.

I wonder how many requests per week would pour into the dev's office if they made some kind of template where you had true and total freeform design fiat, HP level, power choice, power effect mods, the whole shebang, a completely custom character (OK, mostly custom, you would still have to choose from current animations and SFX), but in order to submit it you had to pay X dollars and Paragon Studios would make any changes they deem necessary and then send it back to you and enable you to play it (or maybe allow for one or two rounds of back and forth). Doesn't seem like it could be worth it, and of course human error is likely too risky to allow it, but it is an interesting idea.

I don't think there is enough money in all of creation to support this type of thing, and that's not even counting all the powers people you would have to keep hiring to replace the ones that are going to be shooting themselves in the head.

It sounds like the kind of thing Black Scorpion would threaten the powers team with enacting if they don't meet their current set of deadlines.

Hmmm. See, if someone did that type of balancing a lot, it would actually be much easier than you may think. Naturally, tools to analyze balance would need to exist (but one would think they already have those now, since they need them for their own work). I still have to acknowledge the possibility for human error is large and the whole idea is likely untenable, but it is still fascinating to wonder about.

Of course, the original template players would interact with would have suggested guidelines, sample templates to compare with, and hopefully even allow for starting from dev made templates.

You worry about current dev time, how many a week do you think they'd get? If it cost 40 dollars to submit? How about 30 dollars, 20 dollars, 10 dollars? Any approved template would become part of the game that anyone could purchase for standard new powerset cost (or maybe a bit less since it is so very specific and not as applicable across concepts), the template submitter would get the unlock as part of the original cost.

At 10 dollars a review I'd be playing a completely different game from the rest of you within a month.

Keep in mind, I think this sort of thing is doable in theory with certain very strong restrictions, but I think it would be extremely difficult for the dev team to pull off while working on all the other things they are working on. I've thought through the process enough to be able to state that I'm convinced I could do it within the development limits of the current game, but even if the devs were willing to hand me the data and let me do everything, the amount of impact such a system would induce would be so vast and potentially damaging there's no way they wouldn't require a huge amount of oversight and review, which itself would take up almost as much resources as building the thing in the first place, if not more.

You're talking about engaging a sizable amount of code time from the programmers to make changes to the game (even if its only altering the game to handle more data, and it would require more than that), power system oversight, probably Positron oversight, definitely a ton of iterative Q&A contributions - and all of this ignores the fact that whether the devs were to do this as a special project or someone like me were to do it, the powers team itself would have to be trained to use it and manage it correctly in the long term. That's more load on the powers designers to learn, understand, and be able to deal with glitches, bugs, exploits, and customization of an entire new powers system that would be obeying a different set of rules than the current one.

The people who say its impossible I believe I can safely say are wrong. But the people saying its really really difficult and possibly out of reach of the devs given their current resources are probably right unless they completely lose their minds one day and decide to do it on a bet.

Is that the one where you pay 10 dollars to design a combination I could then purchase for 4 dollars? That seems like a win all around!

/signed
Just because you can type, doesn't mean it should be done.

You failed to quote this part of my post, which CANNOT just be glossed over:

As I said before I don't think a free form system is worth scrapping work on power prolif, COH freedom, new ATs etc for something that may fall flat on its face.

It's not worth the potential problems and lack of content.

They should just start it in a new game.

EDIT: Let me put it this way if they had the manpower and resources as you suggest to do such a thing, then why pray tell are we getting the Incarnate system (both trials and the MUCH requested small teams/solo path) released at a glacial pace. You'd think there would be something like 3 trials per issue and sub issue.

I don't think you're being realistic when looking at it from what else they currently have on their plates and have planned for the next 3-4 issues.
__________________

It's irrelevant how much it costs, the devs STILL have to take time out of what they have to do to reveiw them, no matter how many they get. (I'd bet money even at 50.00 per submission they'd still get a cosmic crap ton with all the various powerset suggestions that have appeared in these suggestion forums over the years).

And again, if the devs have all this extra time down time (which is what you are basically saying they have) why have we been getting the Incarnate trials and other Incarnate content at a glacial pace. If you say because of COH Freedom, you're further making my point. For obvious reasons.

I don't think folks realize what they are asking for. Certainly this is not impossible. But I'd argue its WAAAAAAAAY more time consuming than powerset customization, which by the way others pointed isn't even done yet.

If they have all this magical extra time to revamp the way the game works from the ground up then explain the lack of dev time on AE, bases and pvp.

Yeah, I'm ssssuuuuuuuuuurrreee it'll take no extra time and require no sacrifice of other content. (that was sarcasm in case anyone missed it).

And yet that hasn't stopped you from continuing to argue for an idea that has been thoroughly investigated by the devs and discarded as unworkable.

Maybe the devs can cut back on their daily manicures, pedicures, massages, poolside meetings at the wet bar, and 3 hour business lunches.

Actually, my question was more along the lines of if they get a cosmic crap ton at lets pick $30 dollars a pop, they might be able to hire more people.

The idea was never intended seriously, it was more a thought experiment of taking the freeform idea to a far extreme. The entire logistics of it frightens me much more than the very real and terrifying balance concerns. The level of complication it adds to the UI is nearly incomprehensible, not to mention that the level of detail would be overwhelming and overwhelming is often not fun, especially when it is essentially just bookkeeping that is overwhelming (ever play a PnP game with people who were obsessively organized and thorough with their character records, this idea would be very appealing to them (maybe us, although I always thought my levels were high, but not excessive )). The simplicity of the AT system was always appealing to me. The fact that I can play a character with just SOs and/or cheap easy frankenslotting is very appealing (but I do also delve deeper into the inventions on many characters, so I obviously like complex sometimes too). The nightmare PR of people who can't get exactly what they want (because they want something way out of balance) after paying X bucks is mind-boggling. The level of haves vs. have nots it would introduce is at least of some concern. The system to catalog and store any approved concept and allow them to be browsed conveniently by potential buyers would be difficult to create (think how delightful it is to go through some of the long lists of costume options we have).

One thing that never occurred to me as a drawback would be that people would line up in droves to pay money for it. I did think it might not be sustainable. You might start off with a level of interest that was very high and allowed for the extra staff needed, but once initial concepts were codified the purchase levels could drop off to levels much lower than was workable.

You still have not given me that relevant quote where some Dev said anything like that this decade. You know, the decade where they let people play without paying? The one where they give crashless nukes on 90 second recharges to brutes and defenders and blasters and warshades and everyone else. The dev team that lets my blaster gain perma-mez protection, even against the exotic mezzes. These are the devs who want us to be able to easily switch some of our tools/skills much more dynamically than we could in the past. I want you to show me how you know they have thoroughly investigated this idea within the last 5 years (it seems likely they might have, but I want to know what you know so well).

Here, I'll give you chance to actually contribute to the real conversation. Point out 3 negatives of the idea, none of which can involve things you have zero idea about. No negatives based on dev resources, time, or skill, since you would just be completely guessing. Real drawbacks to the system that would need to be addressed if magic gnomes came in and created the system while the devs were sleeping. I'll even let you cheat and repeat ones others have already mentioned.

Also list 3 positives. What benefits could a freeform system bring? You can be very specific and small, it can be the tiniest, most minor positive, one that might even only affect you and the rest of us wouldn't even care you got the benefit from the system.

So, you were spending time playing "devil's advocate". Gotcha.

Have a nice day.

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Now wait, that quote of mine was specifically in reference just to my totally crazy pay for the devs to approve a freeform design idea. That was not serious, which I thought was clear when I first said it since I mentioned, "Doesn't seem like it could be worth it, and of course human error is likely too risky to allow it, but it is an interesting idea."

The concept of a more limited version of freeform I still think is worth exploring and discussing, even if it's not worth actually doing.

Why discuss something that's not worth doing? Personally that sounds like just a lot of hot air, and a waste of everyone's time.

I think Aura's idea of an AT that has some free form to it is viable, beyond the VEATs. They are a slightly free-form AT. I don't know if it would be worth it, but that is viable under the current game structure, and probably worth discussing.

For every example that's been given for what some folks would "like to be able to do", I would think that creating new epic sets could possibly cover their needs or even new combo power sets.

Think about it. Pistol Mastery, Axe Mastery, a Mace mastery that doesn't include the Villain side Maces, etc.

Maybe new power Sets: another dual wield set, like dual blades, but instead of two blades we get a mace/blade set! That would cover even more "wants". Instead of mace/blade, a dual wield set of Blade/Pistol. Very Pirate. Again, this cover's some player's wants and could be balanced against itself.

Those ideas I can see arguing for, within the confines of what CoH is. Customization of power sets, to create different looks, works within what CoH is. Free form power selection isn't what CoH is.

IF you wanted to go that direction, free-form, I believe you'd have more dissension then even the i13 PvP changes created. It may, in some peoples minds, create added value, but as you pointed out this would create a higher level of complexity. A level of complexity that I think the average player would balk at.

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Dear god, don't be so dramatic about it...

I realize you probably don't remember when I've commented on this topic in the past but as a player of table-top games for over 30 years I'm quite well aware of the fact that it's the presence of a flexible -human- GM that makes most RPG systems work.

If you read the obvious subtext (and Devil's Advocacy) of my post you would have realized that until MMOs can be run by HAL-like artificial intelligences that can adequately do what a human GM can do now the holy grail idea of a free-form power selection systems WILL NOT WORK.

Maybe in another 30 or 40 years, when the tech to handle this arrives, this debate will be moot...

ROFL. So this is all about this post I made.

If you don't like getting called out on something be more careful about what you post.

I have a better idea. You can use the Search tool and look it up yourself. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing and I'm under no obligation to feed you by repeating what's already been posted in this thread or any of the hundreds of threads on the same topic over the past 7 years so you can blithely dismiss it out of hand.