Blasters surpurflous?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Just what am I supposed to reply to ?

Just what is it you are saying I said ?

As to an increase in the damage cap on teams she isn't even remotely close to correct. If you want to argue that a 40% buff to potential damage output for blasters isn't big or great, I just hope you have prescription for the dope you are taking.
40% that they will rarely EVER get to on their own.

When SOLOING (which I thought was the issue here) nearly any other buff they could give blasters on their own would be more useful including any type of mez protection and scaling defense that someone suggested in another thread.

I don't think I'm the one taking dope.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
First place: awakens
Second place: They forget to use them.
Third place: Greens, but they do not usually have enough or can't click them fast enough.

But that is just my observation on how others play. I sure do see plenty of buff bars that lack any inspiration use, even when it should be screamingly obvious to drop them.
Not using insp is probably a BAD player problem, not just a bad blaster problem.

Never understood why I STILL to this day find dead team maters (of ALL ATS) with FULL insp trays when I try to give them an awaken.

I'm always like . . . lol wut?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
40% that they will rarely EVER get to on their own.

When SOLOING (which I thought was the issue here) nearly any other buff they could give blasters on their own would be more useful including any type of mez protection and scaling defense that someone suggested in another thread.

I don't think I'm the one taking dope.
Then maybe you need to start, I hear they have some things that help with reading comprehension and attention deficit disorder.

Quote:
You may want to think that through a little more. Higher damage caps would be exceptionally useful to both solo blasters, and ones on teams with large amounts of buffs.

In the former case they would be able to achieve higher levels of self buffing, do deal with difficult spawns. Earlier in the thread you spoke of giving blasters a tier 9 or tier 10 power that would let blasters go completely nuts, well 40% more damage output for the cost of burning most of your insps or being able to peak much higher for fewer insps but in 10 second bursts is exactly that.

It also adds a nice element of skill in terms of good insp management and making a decision about when 10 second bursts are needed and when the max amount of time is needed.

In the case of teams with ginormous buffs the desirability of the blaster, and particularly the blapper is increased. They would be able to use those buffs instead of having them go to waste or having to waste their inherent buffs.

The cap works for teams because it makes the blaster more desirable. While a brute or scrapper has greater the independence from the team, the blaster would contribute more in the teamed circumstance.

This seems appropriate, the blaster is more dependent on the team it should do more with the team.

Edit: the difficulty to reach the cap solo is also a little questionable, but that is the way many people play.


 

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Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Then maybe you need to start, I hear they have some things that help with reading comprehension and attention deficit disorder.



The cap works for teams because it makes the blaster more desirable. While a brute or scrapper has greater the independence from the team, the blaster would contribute more in the teamed circumstance.

This seems appropriate, the blaster is more dependent on the team it should do more with the team.



Blasters are less desirable on teams . . . riiiiggghhhhtt.

Yeah you and I definetly are playing a different COH than one another.

As I said before it would help you to stop playing with terrible people.


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Posted

Well, playing with terrible people and playing terribly. A couple posts ago he was arguing that blasters strictly require four lucks per minute of survival. The assumption here is apparently that ios don't exist and that doing anything other than standing in one place while enemies attack is cheating. Also pool powers don't exist and the only way to get inspirations is to buy them from a vendor, you certainly don't get loads of them for free by killing things.

The part that confuses me is arcana apparently maintaining that blasters are in fact deficient because a dev at one point said so even though her own experience contradicts that. This currently seems to be the sticking point that continues to prop up A_F's bizarre argument.

Has anyone considered that perhaps the deficiency here is in assuming that "the average player" is always the best balance metric?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post


Blasters are less desirable on teams . . . riiiiggghhhhtt.

Yeah you and I definetly are playing a different COH than one another.

As I said before it would help you to stop playing with terrible people.
I tell you what, the day you actually offer up anything to back up your opinions, is the day I'll actually consider them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Well, playing with terrible people and playing terribly. A couple posts ago he was arguing that blasters strictly require four lucks per minute of survival. The assumption here is apparently that ios don't exist and that doing anything other than standing in one place while enemies attack is cheating. Also pool powers don't exist and the only way to get inspirations is to buy them from a vendor, you certainly don't get loads of them for free by killing things.

The part that confuses me is arcana apparently maintaining that blasters are in fact deficient because a dev at one point said so even though her own experience contradicts that. This currently seems to be the sticking point that continues to prop up A_F's bizarre argument.

Has anyone considered that perhaps the deficiency here is in assuming that "the average player" is always the best balance metric?
The last time you made a ridiculous claim on blaster survivability, I asked you to put up numbers to justify it. (still waiting on that maybe it will happen someday)

This should be easier for you, put up the quote to where you think I said that ?


 

Posted

The last time you asked me to put up numbers to justify something, you'd just come off of a whirlwind tour of ignoring my and everyone else's numbers for, well, since approximately October 2008. I wisely avoided wasting any additional time appeasing you. What I did do was accurately point out that no amount of proof from any source will ever make you happy.

It seems that you hate blasters with a burning passion. This is ironic as blasters are among the top purveyors of fire damage. Have you considered starting a thread on how badly SS/FA brutes suck? They're just about as flaming.


 

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
The last time you asked me to put up numbers to justify something, you'd just come off of a whirlwind tour of ignoring my and everyone else's numbers for, well, since approximately October 2008. I wisely avoided wasting any additional time appeasing you. What I did do was accurately point out that no amount of proof from any source will ever make you happy.

It seems that you hate blasters with a burning passion. This is ironic as blasters are among the top purveyors of fire damage. Have you considered starting a thread on how badly SS/FA brutes suck? They're just about as flaming.

Let me see

1. You say something thats pure b.s.

2. You are asked to back it up

3. You weasel around why you can't

4. I AM SHOCKED




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Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
I tell you what, the day you actually offer up anything to back up your opinions, is the day I'll actually consider them.
You do the same and I will consider your opinions.

The 'facts' you have presented have been contradicted on many occasions about this topic and others.

You simply choose to ignore what you don't like.

You do not wish to have anything remotely resembling a discussion that comes to a conclusion, your only intent from my point of view is to keep arguing and ignoring anything you do not agree with in an effort to make yourself seem wise and influential.

No one here is under any onus to prove or justify their views of the reality of the game, any more than you are, but you are the one that continues to nit-pick and argue semantics and wild scenarios.

I find it to be sad, really. I hope you find things in the real world that bring you joy.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Not using insp is probably a BAD player problem, not just a bad blaster problem.
Indeed. However, my point was that your postulation of an in-game poll about which inspirations people use was irrelevant. Are reds valuable to blasters? IME, very. Purples are more valuable and achieve greater value with fewer used. But I probably use more reds than I do purples, because, oh so long ago, I realized that I was losing fights where my enemy had just a sliver left. Losing fights when I was that close to winning meant I just needed a bit more damage earlier. Reds were one help to that (the Issue 5 changes were the main help though, original Defiance and extra HPs shifted most of my close fights heavily in my favor).

Solo, I try to keep a red or two active throughout my missions. I only use purples when I really need them (which is often enough, but still not all the time). I'll admit, that for specialized cases, like speed runs, I stop using reds, because I need more purples in order to succeed, so I convert even reds (and often enough on speed runs team buffs will be damage capping me at the important times anyway).

Moving back to increased damage cap idea:
However, I find that even damage capped, I will have issues vs. +2s and +3s. The amount of reds I need to keep that pace solo causes my purples to deplete too much. Trying to save those reds for just the "tough" fights means my tray is clogged and I still do not have enough purples, which are what I really need in the tough fights, because the reds while good, just are not good enough. When I look around at what is left after I die, many enemies have enough health left that even 200% more damage buff will not kill enough to make a difference (mostly its just 1 to 3 bosses and a lt. or 3). So against harder enemies, I believe the extra damage will not be noticeably useful.

Fighting evens and +1s, even just with moderate inspire use, the enemies are hard pressed to live very long. Leveling up a blaster at normal to modest difficulty levels has no need for a 700% cap. The problem I have seen is that there is little in-between. My blaster fights, at all levels, generally move from straightforward, I am doing well to "Oh, crap! I am gonna die," too fast for just more damage to make a real difference. 2 to 4 lucks make a huge difference in those cases. You could drop 12 reds (and likely 3 or 4 lucks) to damage cap your self and finish the boss and his allies fight in 15 seconds instead of 25, or you could just drop 3 or 4 purples and finish the fight in those 25 seconds very safely, the extra 8 to 12 inspires does not seem worth 10 seconds. Against standard or modestly increased difficulty the extra damage is wholly unneeded and would not be an efficient use of resources.

The sliver of game content and difficulty where a cap increase may be useful to solo blasters is miniscule. On a rocking team with great buffing, enemies die so fast a cap increase benefit would also be negligible. The only place the cap increase would really matter is on the forums where we could do math and show that with high buffing, blasters really do out-damage an AT or two. Paper wins that translate into negligible in-game benefits are not that exciting to me.


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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
You do the same and I will consider your opinions.

The 'facts' you have presented have been contradicted on many occasions about this topic and others.

You simply choose to ignore what you don't like.

You do not wish to have anything remotely resembling a discussion that comes to a conclusion, your only intent from my point of view is to keep arguing and ignoring anything you do not agree with in an effort to make yourself seem wise and influential.

No one here is under any onus to prove or justify their views of the reality of the game, any more than you are, but you are the one that continues to nit-pick and argue semantics and wild scenarios.

I find it to be sad, really. I hope you find things in the real world that bring you joy.

Well apparently your friends, that you actually talk to fail to bring you joy. (Can't imagine why) So I can only hope the game brings you incredible joy, with any luck f2p will provide you with plenty of dog fights to amuse you.


 

Posted

What I would like is for Defiance to give defense alongside the damage buff, with AoE's getting the better end of the defense buff(as they currently give a lesser damage buff from defiance). Similar to what was done with DP's Hail of Bullets.

This would make a solo blaster's life a whole lot easier.


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Posted

Average player MUST be the balance metric.

Unless you are considering taking blaster out of basic archetypes and putting it into advanced archetype.

This is actually funny since Soa being a prestige archetype is much easier and more effective to play than a blaster.

Funny that.


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Posted

Also the problem with blasters is a very specific one.

No one, really say blasters have a problem before 40, before 40 anything can be dealt with by just applying overwhelming damage or avoiding problematic enemies, ie Cot.

Post 40 unless you are leveling strictly in mission architect, trying to find the few easy enemies among the sea of problematic ones becomes a non starter.

This is where blasters fall on their face, at 50 and incarnate it becomes even worse since everyone with a bare minimum of effort is now outfitted with a nuke.

Yes post 10bil marketing geniuses can outfit multiple rare sets and purples and make a blaster effective, though funny not as effective as a cor, def or soa still, but effective.

THe problem lies between these areas.

Most players will never see more than a few rare io sets or a handful of purples, so balancing around that is not really a suitable solution. Also the devs have said many many many MANY MANY times the game will not be balanced around Io's. Especially not around purples.


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Posted

Blasters still have the highest damage modifiers and easily do more damage than every other AT.
The problem is, they aren't very survivable. This never used to be an issue before everyone became obscenely powerful with IOs and now Incarnates. Their survivability was given to them by buffs, debuffs, controls and heals. The problem is that with IOs and Incarnates, everyone but the Blaster is already a Tank - the traditional team format has gone out the window and even when you get a buffer in the team they rarely bother applying them.

It isn't a Blaster issue, it is a playstyle issue - no-one's playstyle meshes with the Blaster AT anymore.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
Blasters still have the highest damage modifiers and easily do more damage than every other AT.
The problem is, they aren't very survivable. This never used to be an issue before everyone became obscenely powerful with IOs and now Incarnates. Their survivability was given to them by buffs, debuffs, controls and heals. The problem is that with IOs and Incarnates, everyone but the Blaster is already a Tank - the traditional team format has gone out the window and even when you get a buffer in the team they rarely bother applying them.

It isn't a Blaster issue, it is a playstyle issue - no-one's playstyle meshes with the Blaster AT anymore.
Yes and no, technically Cor's and defenders are more squishy.

Dom's and Soa's are quite a bit less squishy.

But cor's and def's apply a bonus to everyone, including sometimes themselves, this makes everyone better, the more you stack it the better it gets.

I said some time ago, if the devs EVER want to make challenging content they are going to have to implement AT diversification. No more than 2 of any one AT, otherwise we will get the LRSF syndrome of TF's made up of 6 cor/def and 2 brute/tank/scrap and everyone else will be left out.


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Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
Yes and no, technically Cor's and defenders are more squishy.

Dom's and Soa's are quite a bit less squishy.

But cor's and def's apply a bonus to everyone, including sometimes themselves, this makes everyone better, the more you stack it the better it gets.

I said some time ago, if the devs EVER want to make challenging content they are going to have to implement AT diversification. No more than 2 of any one AT, otherwise we will get the LRSF syndrome of TF's made up of 6 cor/def and 2 brute/tank/scrap and everyone else will be left out.
Are you suggesting an arbitrary limiting of the amount of ATs that can participate in a TF? If so, that's a terrible idea. The great thing about CoX is that you can get most things done with any combination of ATs. If my group happens to bring 6 Corrs or 6 Stalkers, who cares? Play with it an have fun.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
I said some time ago, if the devs EVER want to make challenging content they are going to have to implement AT diversification. No more than 2 of any one AT, otherwise we will get the LRSF syndrome of TF's made up of 6 cor/def and 2 brute/tank/scrap and everyone else will be left out.
Hmm, my blaster's been on lots of LRSFs (weirdly, more than STF) and I even have the MoLRSF badge. I was just picked up on that run because I was available at the time. Also possibly because I'm just that awesome, but mostly just because I was available at the time. No one questioned my bringing a blaster at the time.

Maybe one of the interesting advantages of playing on a lower population server is that you can't be picky, so you learn over time that any group of anything can do anything, so you eventually get the attitude that any group of anything *should* be able to do anything.


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Posted

couple of things, how many times have the LRSF been nerfed? and I know purples came in way after it debued, but I dont remember if it was in before Io's. Av's had their stats changed, the game has changed alot since it came out, now isnt then, its not challenging anymore.

My point is if you remember when it first came out Dominators and stalkers were in an uproar because they never got invited, except for the pity spot....

Because stacked Buff/debuff overrode any other need in the game.

Also AT diversification is kinda a snarky joke I make about the devs every once in a while, its kind of a little poke harkening back to Enhancement diversification.

No I dont think teams should be limited, but AT's NEED to be brought up to par with each other in an objective sense or players will sit them.

Now I couldnt tell you exactly by how much, or exactly what makes blasters weak, but I think 500 posts of arguing back and forth and the fact that this topic has popped up on and off for 2+ years shows there is a problem and if they ever want to make anything harder or challenging they need to fix some of these problems.

As an example, Dual pistols still looks like junk when compared to Archery.....Gravity still looks bad next to Plant, things like this.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim View Post
Are you suggesting an arbitrary limiting of the amount of ATs that can participate in a TF? If so, that's a terrible idea. The great thing about CoX is that you can get most things done with any combination of ATs. If my group happens to bring 6 Corrs or 6 Stalkers, who cares? Play with it an have fun.
To be entirely fair, I think his point was that you can't really make the game truly challenging while retaining that "anything works" gameplay. Makes sense. The harder something gets, the more power it requires to beat, hence the more "optimal" your team would need to be.

On a lighter note, the idea that you wouldn't be allowed to bring 6 stalkers is just plain hilarious.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zem View Post
To be entirely fair, I think his point was that you can't really make the game truly challenging while retaining that "anything works" gameplay. Makes sense. The harder something gets, the more power it requires to beat, hence the more "optimal" your team would need to be.

On a lighter note, the idea that you wouldn't be allowed to bring 6 stalkers is just plain hilarious.
This, for a while I went to another game that I wont name, where a nerf meaning like 1/10 of 1% was enough for an entire class to get sat on raids, sometimes for an entire season.

This game isnt like this, but they are trying to make trials and TF's harder, to do this they really need to stop with this balancing in a vacuum they seem to do.

Do blasters function yes, are they harder and require more work compared to other AT's that can fill a damage function OH YES!

Just for an example if a TF advertises for a TF damage needed, would anyone really consider a Cor, Soa or dominator not to be damage. No I dont think so...

BUt if a TF advertises for a support, there is no way you can say a blaster is support, but a Cor, Soa or dominator is support...

All three are both, blaster is damage and only damage....


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
couple of things, how many times have the LRSF been nerfed? and I know purples came in way after it debued, but I dont remember if it was in before Io's. Av's had their stats changed, the game has changed alot since it came out, now isnt then, its not challenging anymore.

My point is if you remember when it first came out Dominators and stalkers were in an uproar because they never got invited, except for the pity spot....

Because stacked Buff/debuff overrode any other need in the game.
Also because players always overestimate the difficulty of trials


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Also because players always overestimate the difficulty of trials
While that's true, When the LRSF was first released the Devs had never been able to actually complete it.

Now granted they don't think the same way the Players do, but back then this was very telling for the difficulty of the Task.


 

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Originally Posted by DMystic View Post
While that's true, When the LRSF was first released the Devs had never been able to actually complete it.

Now granted they don't think the same way the Players do, but back then this was very telling for the difficulty of the Task.
I'm not sure what that says, because I'm not sure the devs ever completed the original level 50 Hamidon either. I do know the +4 LRSF was completable, even if the devs themselves never did it, prior to I9 (when inventions were introduced).


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I'm not sure what that says, because I'm not sure the devs ever completed the original level 50 Hamidon either. I do know the +4 LRSF was completable, even if the devs themselves never did it, prior to I9 (when inventions were introduced).
Yes, but the only way to ensure success was to deck out the entire team with Warburg Chemical + Biological weapons, and Shivans - and even then, they took a Granite Brute with 5 or 6 Corruptors (Or Masterminds) and one, maybe 2 pity spots.

Remember, I7 also brought the 1100% Regen Buffs for AVs/Heroes (which was scaled back to 300% a few weeks later).

Once Electric Armor came it gave an alternative to Granite form (psy resistance being the big benefit), and while this was in the same issue as the LRSF, it wasn't until about 3 or 4 months later that they actually reached 50.

Stalkers and Dominators were pity spot ATs (Dominators usually got the nod because Stalkers had thoroughly commanded the PvP environment prior).


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
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