Blasters surpurflous?
iirc the most critical thing to remember at the time was that rad's lingering rad was unresistable...
Though it may have just been the controller version... i just remember my grav/rad which was a toon i didn't even like, being immensely effective during that window where entire teams couldn't make a dent until i arrived. I can't recall if my ice/rad corr was the same or just popular due to spillover fame due to the bugged controller version.
Hmm, my blaster's been on lots of LRSFs (weirdly, more than STF) and I even have the MoLRSF badge. I was just picked up on that run because I was available at the time. Also possibly because I'm just that awesome, but mostly just because I was available at the time. No one questioned my bringing a blaster at the time.
Maybe one of the interesting advantages of playing on a lower population server is that you can't be picky, so you learn over time that any group of anything can do anything, so you eventually get the attitude that any group of anything *should* be able to do anything. |
I mean this reminds me of something from Phol and Kornbluth's "The space merchants". The statement conveys an impression, that is unimpeachable and while technically true and seemingly of devastating power is nothing of the sort.
I have no doubt if you asked people for a spot you could get a dead haddock MoLrsf and no one would question it. Seeing as there are many people in the game that make an artform out of badging runs, and I have seen instances of them getting unenhanced characters that have just stepped out the AE Mo badges. Matter of fact I used to know a guy that did this for Khan and he would pretty much solo master the TF with a team of 7 in tow. I have no doubt if you were displaying brainwave activity during the task force and paying minimal attention to what was going on you would have gotten the badge.
How does your statement apply to the typical person playing a blaster ? Beats me, but you certainly didn't try to say something relevant, but instead came up with a very nice piece of distraction instead
Blasters still have the highest damage modifiers and easily do more damage than every other AT.
The problem is, they aren't very survivable. This never used to be an issue before everyone became obscenely powerful with IOs and now Incarnates. Their survivability was given to them by buffs, debuffs, controls and heals. The problem is that with IOs and Incarnates, everyone but the Blaster is already a Tank - the traditional team format has gone out the window and even when you get a buffer in the team they rarely bother applying them. It isn't a Blaster issue, it is a playstyle issue - no-one's playstyle meshes with the Blaster AT anymore. |
Yes and no, technically Cor's and defenders are more squishy.
Dom's and Soa's are quite a bit less squishy. But cor's and def's apply a bonus to everyone, including sometimes themselves, this makes everyone better, the more you stack it the better it gets. I said some time ago, if the devs EVER want to make challenging content they are going to have to implement AT diversification. No more than 2 of any one AT, otherwise we will get the LRSF syndrome of TF's made up of 6 cor/def and 2 brute/tank/scrap and everyone else will be left out. |
So even in the worst type of case the "squishier than a blaster x" has a 1/3 less hp but more passive mitigation that exceeds the difference and then has further tools that take it beyond.
My fire/traps/dark is upwards of 50x more survivable than a similarly expensive blaster.
No that wasn't a typo. -res enhances -dam, of which it has in spades, on top of status protection, softcapped def, 40%+ res s/l, a heap of regen on tap means it can seriously survive 50x the incoming damage of a similarly expensive blaster.... and damage???
Damage hey? Well never having to worry about mez is hard to quantify, but it really does add a lot of outgoing damage. High uptime soul drain, with the survivability to actually use it willy nilly means damage is high enough to turn many a head...including most blasters.
Corner case? maybe. I mean rain of fire for corrs is pretty unique in that it does 3x damage when it scourges, effectively making it a nuke more or less. And the defender ported version of soul drain is on a 120 timer rather than 240...so there is that. I have no doubt that this toon can crap all over the damage of most blasters and get very close to running right up there with the highest damage blaster combos.
But then I'm compelled to ask. How many corner cases are there that allow other AT's to clearly step into blaster damage territory? (if not surpass them, but that is another discussion). I can think of quite a few, to the point that the corner is now looking like a wall.
So then tit for tat seems fair? how many blasters can nudge their way into the survivability realm achievable by the other ATs?
Sonic/em and son/ice are pretty survivable yes? then again they don't really do much damage... and they aren't really that survivable when you line them up against actual tough toons like a trapper, stormy, rad, or heaven forbid an armored AT.
Blasters are pretty fun though. You gotta keep the brain engaged to play them well, so that is cool i think. But they do kinda stink if you care about being awesome... I select and build my toons to be extremely powerful, as in signature hero/villain powerful, even if the game won't recognize me as such. So for me a blaster can't satisfy my desire to be a super powered being. Good sidekick though haha
If you attempted the LRSF during that short window of time, -regen was pretty much essential. But it didn't require six kins. Two rads were plenty. I did the math myself at the time, and I believe our team had two rads, a kin and a dark: more than enough -regen for the job.
I'm pretty sure it was base regen that was increased at the time, by the way, not regen strength. That fact was critical to understanding the effectiveness of -regen debuffs. |
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
Even before incarnates I felt blasters need some kind of help. The damage difference vs the other ATs is no where near enough considering their squishieness. I can say without a doubt getting a blaster to 50 was the hardest thing I ever done. When I look at comparable ATs in other MMOs it makes me wonder why they screwed blasters over the way they did. The whole range thing being their defense is a bold face lie especially since almost all the critter factions will out range you at some point.
|
The two issues with blasters is they exchange all survivability for dps that's only slightly higher than a scrapper, brute, and corruptors while those three ATs have little trouble staying alive. Corruptors have less damage but Scourge makes up for the lack of Build Up (Though now they can take Power Build Up which is just ridiculous) and half the secondaries have -res debuffs in them making, at range, most corruptors have comparable damage to blasters. PLUS they have heals, buffs, and debuffs to keep them alive while doing that damage. dead = 0 dps
And that's just corruptors. Let's talk about brutes and scrappers, who in late game can leave the rest of the party behind and go solo spawns on their own. Sure their dps is lower than a blaster (only slightly lower in some cases), but they are hard as hell for enemies to kill. While a blaster needs controllers, buffs, and a tank to do what he does in safety and even then if the slightest thing goes wrong they're the first to die. dead = 0 dps
The problem is blaster secondaries. They should have gotten some protection, control, and melee options in that set. Instead they got a Frankenstein medley of cut and pasted powers from other ATs which leads me to believe blasters were the last AT to be designed and they did it in a rush. But the bar has been set, pretty damn low I might add, so they can't go back and change it all now and new sets can't out perform the old ones by too much.
Want to play a ranged damage dealer? Play a corruptor. Want melee damage? Scrapper or brute. Want to mix it up? Dominator. Blaster dps isn't NEARLY enough to make them competitive with ATs that actually have ways to survive the aggro they cause. I had hoped they would get a persistent damage buff from attacking like the rage bar brutes have. That would have solved everything by making them damage gods worth all the crap needed to keep them alive. But no, they went with small, short duration, damage buffs instead. WTF?
"The bird of Hermes is my name. Eating my wings to make me tame." -The Ripley Scroll
Check out my Deviant Art: http://darkauthor81.deviantart.com/
Also because players always overestimate the difficulty of trials
|
Eight level 54 AVs pre-IOs and pre-PermaDom did not require any over-estimation whatsoever.
People collected Shivans and Nukes as an alternative to the preferred team, as I recall. Or just as insurance against a less-than-stellar PuG. Even used the stacked vengeance exploit if they could. And yeah, they brought a pile of purples and oranges in order not to die immediately.
I don't think any of that was over-reaction. Not after having failed it enough times myself to see what can happen on less optimal teams. I think a lot of people who couldn't hack it just gave up on it entirely until the nerf in I8.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Have I complemented you on these lately ?
I mean this reminds me of something from Phol and Kornbluth's "The space merchants". The statement conveys an impression, that is unimpeachable and while technically true and seemingly of devastating power is nothing of the sort. I have no doubt if you asked people for a spot you could get a dead haddock MoLrsf and no one would question it. Seeing as there are many people in the game that make an artform out of badging runs, and I have seen instances of them getting unenhanced characters that have just stepped out the AE Mo badges. Matter of fact I used to know a guy that did this for Khan and he would pretty much solo master the TF with a team of 7 in tow. I have no doubt if you were displaying brainwave activity during the task force and paying minimal attention to what was going on you would have gotten the badge. How does your statement apply to the typical person playing a blaster ? Beats me, but you certainly didn't try to say something relevant, but instead came up with a very nice piece of distraction instead |
You have a problem, A_F. This isn't really about blasters, is it? Tell me about your childhood.
Okay, so in addition to being straight up mental, this is a great example of one of the things I was talking about earlier. Because Arcanaville offered a concrete example of a case where the hardest content in the game was not only offered to a blaster but then successfully completed by said blaster, this reinforces your stance that blasters must be terrible and it's some kind of miracle that the SF even got off the ground much less was completed, what with all the blaster drool all over it.
You have a problem, A_F. This isn't really about blasters, is it? Tell me about your childhood. |
Don't be completely daft. It wasn't Arcanaville's blaster that was being offered the team, it was Arcanaville.
I know this is going to bounce off you like the idea of not spending money bounces off a congressman, but the LRSF could be completed by a duo even before incarnates. If you have a team that includes you when they can win with or without what does that say about your contribution ? Can you say superfluous ? I knew you could. (Actually not entirely true, you need 8 to start the SF, and I expect that making sure everyone gets an at bat is one of the reasons that won't go away)
Because Arcanaville offered a concrete example of a case where the hardest content in the game was not only offered to a blaster but then successfully completed by said blaster, this reinforces your stance that blasters must be terrible and it's some kind of miracle that the SF even got off the ground much less was completed, what with all the blaster drool all over it.
|
As amazing as she is there was no way her BLASTER was on a LRSF back when it was actually challenging...
So her i18+ blaster has done the LRSF? big whoop, that SF has been toned down significantly since it's inception.
When that content was extreme, people showed by and large that they pulled out their extreme content tackling toons. Of which the teams generally had at least 4 buff/debuff and 1-2 aggro sponges, once that requirement was met then the other couple spots were given to people (helped if they were friends) with junk toons that were going to contribute next to nothing toward the sucess of the SF.
Late 2 cents... (and maybe it's already been stated) don't pigeon-hole all Blaster powersets into one cat.
Personally, I view them as Dominators with little comparable (ST vs. AoE) control (being that they're the most similar to them - comparing anything else is, IMO, apples and oranges) but there is:
Elec/Elec - if you like sapping for control
Ice/NRG - if you want good controls (or even Ice/Ice, Ice/Elec)
You can work in other combos for 2-3+ holds, stuns, sleeps, etc
If you're looking for more survivability; all of the Epics/Patrons provide armor of some sort (real good with secondaries that have Power Boost + a little tweak in from side pools)
And with most Blaster combos providing Aim + Combos, regardless of Epic selection - they have an inherent ability to do the nasty better than many.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Don't be completely daft. It wasn't Arcanaville's blaster that was being offered the team, it was Arcanaville.
I know this is going to bounce off you like the idea of not spending money bounces off a congressman, but the LRSF could be completed by a duo even before incarnates. If you have a team that includes you when they can win with or without what does that say about your contribution ? Can you say superfluous ? I knew you could. (Actually not entirely true, you need 8 to start the SF, and I expect that making sure everyone gets an at bat is one of the reasons that won't go away) |
Yeah, and by your own argument you only need one amazing speedy player to handle most TFs. That's true! Therefore all ATs are superfluous, because that player can play whatever she wants and bring seven "helpers" and get the job done just as well. Yep, even blasters can lead speed TFs and be the first one smashing each spawn and the one who starts soloing the AV while the team meanders over. I realize you don't think that counts because it isn't "average players" but if the fact that no AT is essential to a speed TF is among your criteria for the uselessness of blasters, everything else sucks equally.
|
Yes because all content is so easy at the moment that players could take all pool powers and still make it through.
But Blasters are still weaker than cor/dom/soa the three other ranged dps classes.
If the devs ever tried to make hard content, you can be sure blasters would be sat to stack cor and Soa, dom's might be sat too depending on how the difficulty went.
This also ignores the fact that blasters are a heck of a lot harder to solo at 50, than any of the other choices.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
This also ignores the fact that blasters are a heck of a lot harder to solo at 50, than any of the other choices.
|
I do not find blaster hard to solo at 50. I do have trouble soloing at 50 with defenders and corruptors.
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TLR
"I'm going to beat the Jesus out of Satan!" My Wife while playing Dante's Inferno
There was nothing remotely concrete about her example...
As amazing as she is there was no way her BLASTER was on a LRSF back when it was actually challenging... So her i18+ blaster has done the LRSF? big whoop, that SF has been toned down significantly since it's inception. When that content was extreme, people showed by and large that they pulled out their extreme content tackling toons. Of which the teams generally had at least 4 buff/debuff and 1-2 aggro sponges, once that requirement was met then the other couple spots were given to people (helped if they were friends) with junk toons that were going to contribute next to nothing toward the sucess of the SF. |
I said some time ago, if the devs EVER want to make challenging content they are going to have to implement AT diversification. No more than 2 of any one AT, otherwise we will get the LRSF syndrome of TF's made up of 6 cor/def and 2 brute/tank/scrap and everyone else will be left out. |
Furthermore, I was playing both Lambda and BAF on day one, again on a blaster, when we didn't have whole teams of triple shifted Destiny and Judgment wielders, and I think it was challenging at first, and *still* didn't mandate full leagues of force multipliers.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
My post was in response to this:
Lots of people find the LRSF challenging even today, and even those that find it not so challenging find a MoLRSF to be at least a little challenging. Challenging doesn't require forcing people into situations where they have to overload with force multipliers, which is the point I was trying to make. Furthermore, I was playing both Lambda and BAF on day one, again on a blaster, when we didn't have whole teams of triple shifted Destiny and Judgment wielders, and I think it was challenging at first, and *still* didn't mandate full leagues of force multipliers. |
Incarnate trials don't really require much optimization because there are so many players present. There are so many players present that you will occasionally see someone(s) do next to nothing the entire time and have no impact on the outcome (not saying that is what you do).
Original LRSF you kinda needed most everyone firing on all cylinders in addition to taking toons with good group cohesion. Current RSF is easier and often run by IO'd up toons which are night and day stronger than they were when first implemented. Let alone people taking incarnates on that ride now.
lastly, death seems to be expected on the incarnate trials. Perhaps not quite to the point of a Zapp Brannigan tactic, but to the point where frequent deaths don't really hamper progress (again largely due to so many players present). On the opposite side of the spectrum when RSF first hit a single player dropping during the important fights often resulted in a wipe (and often a failed attempted). This is of course because each player was needed and was carrying a fair amount of weight on their shoulders.
Come on Baf is so far from hard at this point it would need faster than light travel to reach somewhat challenging.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Yes and no, technically Cor's and defenders are more squishy.
Dom's and Soa's are quite a bit less squishy. But cor's and def's apply a bonus to everyone, including sometimes themselves, this makes everyone better, the more you stack it the better it gets. I said some time ago, if the devs EVER want to make challenging content they are going to have to implement AT diversification. No more than 2 of any one AT, otherwise we will get the LRSF syndrome of TF's made up of 6 cor/def and 2 brute/tank/scrap and everyone else will be left out. |
Hmm, my blaster's been on lots of LRSFs (weirdly, more than STF) and I even have the MoLRSF badge. I was just picked up on that run because I was available at the time. Also possibly because I'm just that awesome, but mostly just because I was available at the time. No one questioned my bringing a blaster at the time.
Maybe one of the interesting advantages of playing on a lower population server is that you can't be picky, so you learn over time that any group of anything can do anything, so you eventually get the attitude that any group of anything *should* be able to do anything. |
Also because players always overestimate the difficulty of trials
|
How does your statement apply to the typical person playing a blaster ? |
It has nothing to do with the average player playing blasters in typical content. It was a reply to someone else that was talking about something completely different. Try to keep up.
|
I'd love to but not only is your goalpost moving I think you motorized it.
Nobody was talking about typical content, everyone was talking about content where a little trouble is needed to put together a decent team.
I'd like to keep up but its hard when the goalpost approaches lightstpeed
My post was in response to this:
Lots of people find the LRSF challenging even today, and even those that find it not so challenging find a MoLRSF to be at least a little challenging. Challenging doesn't require forcing people into situations where they have to overload with force multipliers, which is the point I was trying to make. |
But if you are talking about blasters being picked for teams, citing teams that are formed without thought or care to success is hardly a measure.
Yeah, and by your own argument you only need one amazing speedy player to handle most TFs. That's true! Therefore all ATs are superfluous, because that player can play whatever she wants and bring seven "helpers" and get the job done just as well. Yep, even blasters can lead speed TFs and be the first one smashing each spawn and the one who starts soloing the AV while the team meanders over. I realize you don't think that counts because it isn't "average players" but if the fact that no AT is essential to a speed TF is among your criteria for the uselessness of blasters, everything else sucks equally.
|
Look I don't know how you put together a STF/LRSF/Khan/ITF etc team but let me take you through how people I know do it.
1. Somebody decides they want to do X
2. They check their global friends list to see who is on they like playing with
3. They look at what they have and decide what they need to change to succeed.
4. They open it up to global channels to fill if needed.
What goes in that core group is what is not superfluous the rest is just fill.
Edit: Amplifying on that Blasters used to have some specialty jobs
People liked not to have too much melee for STFs because if they weren't defense soft capped or if the team didn't have a buffer that could manage softcapping, they got to be a liability with ghost widow. There was also their use in snipe pulling the patrons.
Both of those are gone.
There was nothing remotely concrete about her example...
As amazing as she is there was no way her BLASTER was on a LRSF back when it was actually challenging... |
I was gonna laugh at this, but it just clicked: SF were villain-only until I18, weren't they.
|
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
I'd love to but not only is your goalpost moving I think you motorized it.
Nobody was talking about typical content, everyone was talking about content where a little trouble is needed to put together a decent team. I'd like to keep up but its hard when the goalpost approaches lightstpeed |
Yes if you have a bunch of people that aren't taking the trouble to put together an optimum or even a slightly optimized team I'd imagine you could find all kinds of content challenging. |
How about this: People are playing Blasters because they are fun to play and they are good ENOUGH to play in any content this game offers. Because, yes, most teams out there DO just grab anyone available. I ought to know. I play a Stalker and I get on teams quite easily. So it can't be that hard.
Maybe if this day comes that the devs decide to take this game in a min/max direction and only develop content like the original LRSF, people WILL be dropping their Blasters in droves and then you'll actually have a point. But today the inconvenient truth is that no matter what performance stats you can throw up here, people are simply quite happy playing AND teaming with Blasters. You are standing in the middle of a field on a bright sunny day shouting "The sky is falling!" Why should the devs listen?
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
This thread has been ridiculous for a while now.
Sinple fact: People still play Blasters becuase people still ENJOY playing Blasters.
These are the same people who don't give a damn when you tell them they should delete their favorite character because it's gimped and serves no purpose in the game anymore.
You'd probably be surprised how many teams welcome Blasters for the simple reason that they don't particularly care who is playing what. The game is not rocket surgery, and if you let go of some of the anal-retentive "The team MUST have this exact make-up" attitude, you might find that you can have fun playing it with any mix of characters imaginable.
Blasters are NOT superfluous. They are just characters like everyone else, no better and no worse.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
All you needed was smart inspiration use. It helped, back in I7, to have someone on the team that, oh, say, understood something we today call "the defensive soft cap." Once you took out Positron, it was all over.
I'm pretty sure it was base regen that was increased at the time, by the way, not regen strength. That fact was critical to understanding the effectiveness of -regen debuffs.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)