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Hope not!
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Originally Posted by Gitch
I was just reading a forum post on kb in the blaster forums and it made me wonder if there were any plans to expand Null the gull's powers to include turning kb into kd. Has anyone heard of this, would it be possible? I was thinking he could apply a mag reduction to all kb powers untill under the .67 lvl.
thanks, Gitch |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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No. there are no plans to do so.
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Originally Posted by Gitch
I was just reading a forum post on kb in the blaster forums and it made me wonder if there were any plans to expand Null the gull's powers to include turning kb into kd. Has anyone heard of this, would it be possible? I was thinking he could apply a mag reduction to all kb powers untill under the .67 lvl.
thanks, Gitch |
lol
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That would be a great idea (I for one would love it) however there are two reasons the Developers would probably not do this.|
Originally Posted by Gitch
I was just reading a forum post on kb in the blaster forums and it made me wonder if there were any plans to expand Null the gull's powers to include turning kb into kd. Has anyone heard of this, would it be possible? I was thinking he could apply a mag reduction to all kb powers untill under the .67 lvl.
thanks, Gitch |
1) They might balance powers with a Knockback component while taking that hindrance into account. If you had a way to reduce that Knockback, you have just taken away a balancing point to the power. Ex: Hand Clap.
2) If 1 isn't true, some powers might just become too powerful. Ex: Bonfire.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
Can we get an option to turn sleep and fear powers into stuns or holds? Can we also change the damage mechanic so that it works similar to Mystic Arcana? It was already bad joining a team for some mishes and getting hit by a random 20min duration buff, but receiving damage, too? An option window that lets as deny all incoming damage should have been implemented from the start. I hope this issue will be resolves asap.
Edit: And maybe add a DDR buff to Hasten?
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I hope to Ermeeth you're being overly sarcastic...
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Originally Posted by xhris
Can we get an option to turn sleep and fear powers into stuns or holds? Can we also change the damage mechanic so that it works similar to Mystic Arcana? It was already bad joining a team for some mishes and getting hit by a random 20min duration buff, but receiving damage, too? An option window that lets as deny all incoming damage should have been implemented from the start. I hope this issue will be resolves asap.
Edit: And maybe add a DDR buff to Hasten? |
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
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The fact I seem to be stuck with eternally reading that as "dance dance revolution" makes that a very amusing request.|
Originally Posted by xhris
Edit: And maybe add a DDR buff to Hasten?
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*hasten fires off*
*character starts dancing wildly*
Other character, NPCs: "Buh?"
Its not an unreasonable request but I seem to remember a Dev explaining why it was difficult or impossible.
If there was an enhancement that turned knockback into knockdown, I might take Hand Clap.
ps: I don't think knockback vs knockdown is used as a balancing mechanism, since its only really a disadvantage to soloing melees, or melees teaming with argumentative AoE based blasters
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
You know, knockback is a BIG part of comics lore. Removing it is antithetical to the feel of superheroing. It would make the game better for DPS-bots and worse for supers. Are you a DPS-bot or a super?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Having a NPC change how powers work would be really really bad. You pick your powers for a reason and for the abilities they specifically have. That includes setbacks!
Especially the setbacks are part of the way the devs blanace the powers.
Faster recharge... ad a bit of a setback or less damage.. etc.
Powers should only be customisable in non-combat ways like the animations and maybe the sounds. Nothing more!
/unsigned
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Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
I am (and always have been) firmly in the camp of folks that hate knockback. I know it can be played well and used effectively and my hat is off to those folks who can achieve it.
My solution has always been to avoid taking powers with knockback, and in some cases, entire sets. It would be pretty cool if I could play with knockdown instead of knockback, but I don't think it is likely to ever happen.
Make a man a fire and keep him warm for the day, SET a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Incarnates: K'lir(Fire/Dark Corr):Hot-House Flower(Plant/Fire Dom):Kinrad X(Kin/Rad Def):Itsy-Bitsy Spider(Crab):Two Ton Tony(Mace/WP Broot):Teeny Weeny Widow(Fortunata/Widow) : Zeroth Law (Ice/Fire Tank)
Not to keep arguing, but to clarify something that some readers may not be aware of: for some purposes, knockdown is weaker than knockback.
Foes take much longer to get up and shoot back when they are ragdolled by knockback than when they are simply knocked down where they stand. As mitigation, knockback is much superior. Squishy ATs feel this difference very keenly.
And to put it bluntly, all knockback mitigates -- even knockback somebody else does. That Peacbringer's knockback is keeping my Blaster alive longer; if he shuts it off at Null the Gull, my survivability will decrease somewhat. YOUR knockback helps me, sometimes, just like your holds and debuffs help me.
I will grant that area knockback can in theory also be bad for survivability under certain conditions, most notably by knocking a bunch of enemies off a placed control (like Ice Slick). But generally, knockback is helpful to ranged squishies -- and of course they don't have to chase enemies, they can just shoot them where they landed.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
One thing often overlooked by knockback proponents is the fact that knockback is mitigation for the mobs too. Knocking enemies out of AoEs, debuff patches, and out of the range of the walking blenders we call melee characters prolongs the life of the enemies. In teams, the mitigation provided to players via knockback is infinitesimal compared to the mitigation already present from buffs, debuffs, taunts and controls. Any player mitigation is far outweighed by the mitigation knockback provides to the enemies who are now temporarily safe from at least part of the team's powers. It's very like caging powers that render enemies intangible. Sure, you're technically safer from enemies thus affected, but they are in a lot less danger from you too.
Solo all this goes out the window and knockback is great mitigation. It's only on teams that knockback's marginal utility decreases so drastically, and almost certainly provides far more protection to enemies than to players.
All that said, single target knockback is a nonissue. One enemy suddenly pushed away from my scrapper isn't going to matter a whit; I am just going to detarget and retarget something closer. It's the AoE knockbacks and radial knockbacks that suck. Running into a mob and firing off a PbAoE is frustrating in the extreme when the mob is suddenly scattered to the four winds by a low-damage high knockback power, and nobody is made any safer by prolonging the entire spawn's lifespan by protecting it very effectively from AoEs and debuffs.
edit: I have never seen a team become less survivable by improper use of knockback. I don't know who would argue that. It's just that knockback increases frustration and doesn't provide much benefit in a team. The perception of "yay I knocked the spawn on its *** and now it can't hurt us!" is not very accurate. The more accurate perception would be "damn, I scattered the spawn out of the AoEs and for what? They were already taunted, I have shields from the cold dom troller, and the rad was animating Radiation Infection on them. Knocking them around didn't help us any, but it sure helped them."
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Eh. You're talking about mis-used area knockback, the very worst kind (none of the other kinds are worth complaining about). But even that's a tie at best; the "infinitesimal" mitigation you're talking about (knocked back) is actually 100% mitigation (can't attack my squishy, at all) whereas a lot of the buffs and debuffs you mention are not 100% mitigation (can still attack my squishy, at a penalty). And while I myself hate seeing foes scattered, I can't recall having seen a large fast-moving team defeated because the Peacebringer scattered the mobs. I've seen plenty of teams annoyed by it, but the mobs melt in a few seconds anyway.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
One thing often overlooked by knockback proponents is the fact that knockback is mitigation for the mobs too. Knocking enemies out of AoEs, debuff patches, and out of the range of the walking blenders we call melee characters prolongs the life of the enemies. In teams, the mitigation provided to players via knockback is infinitesimal compared to the mitigation already present from buffs, debuffs, taunts and controls. Any player mitigation is far outweighed by the mitigation knockback provides to the enemies who are now temporarily safe from at least part of the team's powers.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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That is the fault of the *player,* not of knockback. The *player* has to know when to do so. The *player* has to adjust their position for AOE knockback. Nobody complained when, for instance, the Lich (think it was) MM pet's torrent was turned to knock*down*... because the Lich can't use it intelligently. A player, supposedly, has a brain and can figure out when and when not to use it. You're blaming the car for running through a crowded crosswalk when you should be looking at the driver.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Running into a mob and firing off a PbAoE is frustrating in the extreme when the mob is suddenly scattered to the four winds by a low-damage high knockback power,
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Don't forget some of the others - |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Eh. You're talking about mis-used area knockback, the very worst kind (none of the other kinds are worth complaining about). But even that's a tie at best; the "infinitesimal" mitigation you're talking about (knocked back) is actually 100% mitigation (can't attack my squishy, at all) whereas a lot of the buffs and debuffs you mention are not 100% mitigation (can still attack my squishy, at a penalty).
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I've done (rough) timings, because of arguments like this, of knockdown, knockback and the like.
Knockdown:
About 2 seconds before the mob's back up.
Mob comes BACK up where they were - which, with many of these powers, is still melee range, meaning I'm in danger of most mobs most damaging attacks still (melee attacks.)
Knockup:
Typically Air Superiority, about 3 seconds.
Same issue with KD.
KnockBack - flat surface
Typically 5-6 seconds that the mob *can't do anything.* Plus, when they get up, they're no longer in melee range and have to use (often weaker, if they have both melee and ranged attacks) ranged attacks.
Knockback - incline
6 seconds to "infinity" (mob killed while on incline.)
Inclines are NOT hard to find - and they don't even have to be that big. The little ramps on Arachnos ramps (not the tall, empty room, I mean the little ones under the platforms in corner rooms, for instance - about character height) gave me a good ten seconds to finish off a mob where they couldn't fire back, go into hide, placate me, smoke grenade the team heal themselves or others...
And dont' forget not-so-rare mobs like Energy-based PPs or Fake Nemesis. The longer they're down (or flying back from knockback,) the longer they're prevented from firing off their PFF or MOG (for instance) and *prolonging* the fight. And of course they're *still* taking damage from the person knocking them back (and probably others.)
Er, forgive me if I'm wrong in this, but don't all the Null options revolve around received effects?
Changing how powers affect any given NPC seems something very different than changing how your particular player character, with all its saved settings, responds to a subset of abilities.
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As a general statement (the way you are presenting it), this is false.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
In teams, the mitigation provided to players via knockback is infinitesimal compared to the mitigation already present from buffs, debuffs, taunts and controls. Any player mitigation is far outweighed by the mitigation knockback provides to the enemies who are now temporarily safe from at least part of the team's powers.
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Knockback depends strongly on the circumstances and there are plenty of situations where the benefit to the team VASTLY outweighs the benefit to the enemies.
If you don't like knockback, fine. But to say that the benefits are "infinitesimal" and that it benefits the enemies more than teammates is total BS.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I'm sorry if I've pushed your buttons. That wasn't my intention. I'm trying to respectfully and politely present my viewpoint. I believe I've presented, and will continue to present, enough support for my opinion that it shouldn't be dismissed as "total BS," even if you do disagree with it.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
As a general statement (the way you are presenting it), this is false.
Knockback depends strongly on the circumstances and there are plenty of situations where the benefit to the team VASTLY outweighs the benefit to the enemies. If you don't like knockback, fine. But to say that the benefits are "infinitesimal" and that it benefits the enemies more than teammates is total BS. |
I don't agree with your assessment. Knockback absolutely protects enemies far more than teammates. Spawns that would be dead almost immediately get the scatter-and-rally, knocked out of debuff patches, what have you. I've never been in a situation in-game where AoE knockback was the best choice (or even a good choice) for mitigation. In this game, killing the spawn is the best mitigation possible, and AoE knockback largely slows that process. We can pretend that the spawn was a deadly threat that had to be knocked on its *** lest the team die, but in reality, it's just another spawn and almost certainly wasn't going to cause much harm. Where's the benefit in prolonging the life of a spawn? Knockback increases spawn lifespan and that causes more incoming damage, because sure, the spawn spends a few seconds getting up, but then is all over the place and not nearly as subject to AoE attacks.
I'd like to hear about a typical, mixed-AT teaming situation where knockback is a meaningful mitigator without slowing down everyone's fighting. By meaningful, I mean regularly makes a big difference in survivability, like ice shields or rad debuffs. Knocking a bunch of baddies across the room when they are no threat already isn't anything but an annoyance. Knocking a bunch of baddies that are a threat across the room doesn't do anything but limit AoE attack effectiveness, aggro control and crowd control, while also helping to redistribute aggro to the user of the knockback powers.
My opinion is based on my experiences playing the game, and coming to the realization that while typical AoE knockback is iconic and fun in and of itself, it absolutely, positively makes any given encounter last longer*. That's not up for debate; it's a demonstrable fact. Melee ATs suddenly must stop attacking to give chase. AoEs that would hit ten or more targets suddenly hit two or three. Crowd control powers hit fewer enemies. Enemies that would be happily glued to the tank via Gauntlet or a taunt aura are suddenly free to target whoever they would like, quite possibly the squishy that just knocked them across the room. The best case scenario is that this was a trivial spawn and everyone sighs and kills it in double the time. The worst case scenario is that this was a challenging spawn, and now the team is in a worse situation to handle it because the spawn is all over hell's half-acre. Put simply, no encounter is sped up via knockback*, and it's been my experience that the longer an encounter lasts, the more dangerous it is to the squishier members of the team.
I've found two places in-game where knockback is a big help, but it's got nowt to do with mitigation. Knocking mobs away from the terminals in the KIR iTrial is great. It's not a help for survivability at all, but it speeds up the tiresome process of unlocking those terminals. Similarly, the prisoner phase of the BAF iTrial has some great uses for knockback, in that it messes with enemy pathing, but it (obviously) has no mitigation value.
*The exception is that almost-imaginary player who lines up his knockback, or uses from hover, or belts things into a corner. I've never met him or her, but I hear they're out there. Come join my teams, Mr. or Mrs. Competent Knockbacker!
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While I do disagree with your opinion, it was the sweeping generalization that I was characterizing as BS.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
I'm sorry if I've pushed your buttons. That wasn't my intention. I'm trying to respectfully and politely present my viewpoint. I believe I've presented, and will continue to present, enough support for my opinion that it shouldn't be dismissed as "total BS," even if you do disagree with it.
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| I don't agree with your assessment. Knockback absolutely protects enemies far more than teammates. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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If you knock an entire group of enemies out of an Invuln character's Invincibility radius and the enemies that were shooting at him from across the room can hit him now....you have just made that character take damage he probably wouldn't have before. |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
And to put it bluntly, all knockback mitigates -- even knockback somebody else does.
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Similarly, if you knock a whole group out of a WP character's RttC and his regen suddenly can't keep up with the incoming damage....you've just put that character in danger of defeat that he was not in before.
Another one: Dark Regeneration has a long animation. If you knock all of a Dark Armor character's targets away from him before it finishes he gets no heal. Since most DA players wait as long as possible to use Dark Regen, there's a good chance you just got that person killed, when he would have been fine had you NOT used knockback.
ALL knockback mitigates? Nope, I just gave you 3 examples where knockback makes a situation worse, not better.
Knockback CAN mitigate, if it's used intelligently. But saying all knockback mitigates, regardless of how or when it is used, is just not true.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Examples 1 & 2 - if you're knocking them down/back, even though they're out of the aura range, they're also not causing damage, and when they get back up they'll be doing ranged damage which is less than melee damage.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you knock an entire group of enemies out of an Invuln character's Invincibility radius and the enemies that were shooting at him from across the room can hit him now....you have just made that character take damage he probably wouldn't have before.
Similarly, if you knock a whole group out of a WP character's RttC and his regen suddenly can't keep up with the incoming damage....you've just put that character in danger of defeat that he was not in before. Another one: Dark Regeneration has a long animation. If you knock all of a Dark Armor character's targets away from him before it finishes he gets no heal. Since most DA players wait as long as possible to use Dark Regen, there's a good chance you just got that person killed, when he would have been fine had you NOT used knockback. |
Example 3 - that's one power in one powerset and the chances of knockback happening at the exact moment to disrupt that one power are very slim and not a good example to use to try and prove your point.
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Bubbawheat has a point -- ragdolled enemies are unable to damage an Invulnerability Tanker just as much as they are unable to damage an Energy Blaster.|
Originally Posted by Bubbawheat
Examples 1 & 2 - if you're knocking them down/back, even though they're out of the aura range, they're also not causing damage, and when they get back up they'll be doing ranged damage which is less than melee damage.
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It's annoying as all get-out, and unnecessary, and it moves things out of position after the Tanker has worked to put them there...and, if he's unable to move, may result in him taking some more damage after they recover and he has not adjusted. But it did mitigate during that time period -- even better than the soft-cap does.
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| Example 3 - that's one power in one powerset and the chances of knockback happening at the exact moment to disrupt that one power are very slim and not a good example to use to try and prove your point. |
Don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing that unlimited use of knockback is always wholly good. I personally have complained about knockback (for some reason I personally seem to be most bothered by low-level Peacebringers knocking stuff out of AoEs with a relatively low-damage attack). I just feel that knockback is very much over-complained about, and usually by people who ignore its positive aspects, either deliberately or out of ignorance.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Just remember everyone. You don't need Null the Gull to fix any issues you may have with playing with Energy Blasters or other knockback artists.
The fix is far simpler than that.
If you don't like playing with a character with lots of knockback...don't team with them.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I was just reading a forum post on kb in the blaster forums and it made me wonder if there were any plans to expand Null the gull's powers to include turning kb into kd. Has anyone heard of this, would it be possible? I was thinking he could apply a mag reduction to all kb powers untill under the .67 lvl.
thanks,
Gitch