Stalkers need dev attention even disregading other ATs
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Angelic_EU,
Posted on: 2011-07-07 16:35 in Stalkers
There really isn't anything wrong with Stalkers, I got a lvl 50, they not suppose to be like Scrappers or most other melee toons. Garbing More Stealth form the power Pool and Garbing Tough and weaver can really help improve your survivability.
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Don't see how that's relevent. LR doesn't crit so it doesn't matter when you use it in your AoE chain. And if your trying to mow through fodder, you don't bother with AS.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Because Lightning Rod doesn't mess up the critical on Assassin's Shock.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Stalker AoE is fine. They should not be on Scrapper level of AoE. Scrappers have their AoE prowess due to being pseudo-tanks when needed.
Stalker (and Blaster) damage is NOT fine and should be addressed. Stalker (And Blaster) should, by a margin, out-damage the other ATs. And that's all. |
That said, it still makes no sense to me when poster complain about low AoE on their stalkers and how that SS/Fire so outclasses them. Do you honestly think having that Whirling Sword/Lotus Drop, or Whirling Hands or Dragons Tail will suddenly close that gap? Why not use your brain, cut out the middle man, stop wasting your time pining over attacks the AT never had and ask for sets like Fire Armor and Super Strength?
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Why don't you shove your attitude up your a$$ for once? Pretty please?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Then why aren't you using BU + Throw Spines/1K cuts/Burst/Thunder Strike and a follow up AoE if you're trying to have a 'who kills the fodder fastest' pissing match?
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Wrong is a strong word. Stalker is very playable. Stalker is just statistically inferior.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
There really isn't anything wrong with Stalkers, I got a lvl 50, they not suppose to be like Scrappers or most other melee toons. Garbing More Stealth form the power Pool and Garbing Tough and weaver can really help improve your survivability.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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It certainly will improve Martial Arts' performance for sure. No AT needs a set that gives 7 single target attacks. It's a design error and I firmly believe in it.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Do you honestly think having that Whirling Sword/Lotus Drop, or Whirling Hands or Dragons Tail will suddenly close that gap?
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Closing gap means Stalker should be dealing similar damage as Brute/Scrapper. That's wrong. Stalker should CLEARLY OUT DAMAGE Scrapper/Brute if you ask me.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Well good the devs aren't asking you. I'm pretty sure they put you on the same list as Johnny Butane and EvilRyu >_>
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Stalker should CLEARLY OUT DAMAGE Scrapper/Brute if you ask me.
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Kioshi you are mistaken on Eagle's Claw.
Stalker version of EC doesn't increase the crit chance on the next attack. That's the Scrapper version of EC.
Stalker version of EC has higher damage.
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Hey at least they don't have the attitude that if something is not working right, it is because the user is stupid or incompetent. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well good the devs aren't asking you. I'm pretty sure they put you on the same list as Johnny Butane and EvilRyu >_>
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You, Sir, have that attitude.
I can name things I don't like about Stalkers but I never call the people stupid or give them the attitude that they are just incompetent.
Whenever somebody say bad things about Stalker, you immediately jump in and say "that's because you are doing it wrong".
Yeah, it's never the Stalker's problem. It's the users'. If you think EvilRyu is stubborn, then you are just as stubborn but on the opposite end.
And I still firmly believe Stalker should clearly out-damage Scrapper/Brute. There is no ifs or buts. Stalker shouldn't rely on teammates to deal similar damage as Scrapper.
By "clearly", I mean not just the first 10s during Build Up, or with 7 teammates surrounding you all the time. Those conditions need to be reduced.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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When you're doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong. Same complaint people have with anything they find difficult like Knockback, Khelds or, for me Masterminds.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Hey at least they don't have the attitude that if something is not working right, it is because the user is stupid or incompetent.
You, Sir, have that attitude. I can name things I don't like about Stalkers but I never call the people stupid or give them the attitude that they are just incompetent. Whenever somebody say bad things about Stalker, you immediately jump in and say "that's because you are doing it wrong". |
But then that's when I express a means to *inform*. You can't use AS on a running target? Move ahead of the target and queue it as they run by. Is there something wrong with AS? Well, if there is something wrong with AS, it's *NOT* that it's unusable on moving targets, that's for sure.
As for the rest? I'm firmly in the position that whoever deals the most damage currently 'On Paper' (most likely Blasters and/or Doms) is the *highest* any AT should be capable of standardly. Because if Stalkers start *clearly* outdamaging Scrappers/Brutes, where does that leave Blasters? Do you increase their survivability to match *at least* Doms? Then where do doms sit? Or Khelds? Or Corruptors?
Yes, this argument is a slippery slope fallacy, but your WHOLE PREMISE to make Stalkers outdamage X AT is a slippery slope. It's power creep and you're just too naive or stubborn to acknowledge that.
I'm as big a Stalker fan as you, and I want my Stalkers to shine as well, but not at the price of balance. I'd rather the AT be *balanced* than rely on a crutch of imbalance to make you feel good about yourself.
I don't remember which red name posted it, but it was said that the reason for lowering Brute Fury was because they were not supposed to be on par with Scrappers on damage since they already outdid them on survivability. The obvious implication being that there is a continuum. The more survivability you have, the less damage you deal, and no AT should outdo another on more than one of those metrics.
Stalkers have less survivability than other melee ATs. Based on the above logic they should do more damage than any of them. By that I don't mean in a specific set of circumstances such as an entire team huddled up on you. All the time.
Add in the lack of AoE, and Stalkers should be the single-target kings, and not by a slim margin.
If balance demands that their damage cannot be increased (and I'm not conceding that point necessarily), then to me it seems perfectly reasonable that the other areas be addressed. Those being survivability and AoE.
A raising of the HP cap so their powers can work properly seems obvious, especially given that it will have minimal impact on baseline performance.
All that said, I suspect that the devs don't compare Stalkers to other melee ATs for balance consideration, which is why those comparisons are unlikely to gain any traction.
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It just seemed like you implied that because you wrote that making the +hp powers work like they do for every other AT would be 'too much' for Stalkers, so a +maxhp power doing nothing in some cases (my /nin has no +hp power and is capped via IOs, HP bonuses come in so many sets) and at most giving you 400 hp when they can give +80% hp to other ATs (Dull Pain = +79% maxHP) seems right for you?|
Originally Posted by untoldhero
Your right in saying my stalker is lvl 32. Never got past that. I dont want to come accross argumentive.
I dont pvp any more because its broken. I melee'd pvp anywho, I was never good against ranged. As for the stalkers are "kings in pvp" I never implied. My point was stalkers are where they are so they wont become melee kings. I for one agree with the valid points that have been risen in this thread. I guess I was just trying to look for a possible justification as to why they are what they are. personally tho I am not sure how to fix issues that could create over powered results, or make other AT'S seem redundant. |
Btw, from what I've read, pvp after i13 is not really good for melee. /Regen toons are unkillable played right but that's it. Brutes and Tankers are used mostly for tauntbots in Arena organized teams. And of course there's the WTF stuff (Fossilize, a hold, doing stupid damage for Tankers, Spirit Shark almost a ranged AS and etc)
And other ATs redundant? Have you ever seen a SS/FA Brute? Mine was farming +3/x8 with bosses at a decent speed with SOs only slotted for acc and endred (some rech in the Aoes), with some cheap IOs and 30% rech he was farming +4/x8 at fast speeds. In ambush farms, fire or not, you have to be softcapped all the time, because even fire farms can quickly kill a Fire Tanker without defense. Good thing is, SS/FA Brute kills so ungodly fast that insps rain on you more often.
Even with all the changes I suggested applied they still wouldn't come close to any scrapper or brute, just be more desirable and enjoyable.
Believe me, Stalkers, even with changes to HP caps, Aoes doing 100% all the time from hide, getting 100% from BU and a higher damage modifier, even something like 1.2, more than any other AT (I didn't suggest it because it's beating a dead horse but I'd like it too s well) wouldn't overshadow anybody.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Kioshi you are mistaken on Eagle's Claw.
Stalker version of EC doesn't increase the crit chance on the next attack. That's the Scrapper version of EC. Stalker version of EC has higher damage. |
Anyway the set is kinda borked imo with so many ST attacks (a bit like Blaster psi, tho they have one AoE). That's why it was the one I suggested including an AoE, EM doesn't need it much imho and the swords seem fine to me.
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Actually, as I've expressed before, it's the exact metric the Dev's used to balance Brutes, Tankers, and Scrappers. Why Stalkers were left out of that particular rotation of balance changes is anyone's guess. If the Devs' own metric is off for Stalkers, I don't see it as unreasonable that members of the player community call them on the discrepancy.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Yes, this argument is a slippery slope fallacy, but your WHOLE PREMISE to make Stalkers outdamage X AT is a slippery slope. .
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^This^
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Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
I don't remember which red name posted it, but it was said that the reason for lowering Brute Fury was because they were not supposed to be on par with Scrappers on damage since they already outdid them on survivability. The obvious implication being that there is a continuum. The more survivability you have, the less damage you deal, and no AT should outdo another on more than one of those metrics.
Stalkers have less survivability than other melee ATs. Based on the above logic they should do more damage than any of them. By that I don't mean in a specific set of circumstances such as an entire team huddled up on you. All the time. Add in the lack of AoE, and Stalkers should be the single-target kings, and not by a slim margin. If balance demands that their damage cannot be increased (and I'm not conceding that point necessarily), then to me it seems perfectly reasonable that the other areas be addressed. Those being survivability and AoE. A raising of the HP cap so their powers can work properly seems obvious, especially given that it will have minimal impact on baseline performance. All that said, I suspect that the devs don't compare Stalkers to other melee ATs for balance consideration, which is why those comparisons are unlikely to gain any traction. |
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But the devs didn't use the 'metric' spoken here to reserve some observed dichotomy between Brutes, Tankers and Scrappers by *buffing* Scrappers. They *nerfed* Brutes.
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Originally Posted by JustBling
Actually, as I've expressed before, it's the exact metric the Dev's used to balance Brutes, Tankers, and Scrappers. Why Stalkers were left out of that particular rotation of balance changes is anyone's guess. If the Devs' own metric is off for Stalkers, I don't see it as unreasonable that members of the player community call them on the discrepancy.
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Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
Stalkers have less survivability than other melee ATs. Based on the above logic they should do more damage than any of them. By that I don't mean in a specific set of circumstances such as an entire team huddled up on you. All the time. |
Soooo we should nerf scrapper HP/HP cap down to Stalker's?
Well we could do that.
Or we could lower Scrapper damage potential.
Or We could raise Stalker damage potential.
Or We could raise Stalker HP/survivability.
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I'd say it'd shut alot of people up having Stalkers and Scrappers with the same mitigation potential.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
Well we could do that.
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| Or we could lower Scrapper damage potential. |
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| Or We could raise Stalker damage potential. |
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| Or We could raise Stalker HP/survivability. |
Or we could do something completely different and expand on alternative aspects of the AT. Devs already said Stalkers are 'as good as they're going to get' so maybe they could make Stalkers 'more useful'. Make a portion of the debuffs of their attacks unresistable. Greatly improve their debuff mods. Make their debuffs 'splash' like gauntlet.
The way I see it, you guys are asking for damage and the devs said 'No.'
So what do you do? Ask for more damage, I guess >_>
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Clearly disreguarding my earlier statement (pvp) 1.25 modifier would OP stalkers in pvp. Your telling me a hidden ,AS with 1.25 modifier wouldnt be OP? Thats scrapper dmg with stalker perks. Im sorry but although pvp may not be the main objective for 90% of players its still part of the game and im sure the devs want to try appeal to all tastes of player. I dont pvp but I may consider that stalkers are where they are because of it?|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
The funny thing is even if Stalker has 1.125 damage modifier, this AT still won't be overpowered as long as they have limited AoE potential.
I don't play Brute/Scrapper much but I've seen how a well slotted SS/Fire Brute performs or a Elec/Shield Scrapper/Brute. By the time my first Assassin Strike ends, they already kill most of the minions..... Stalker is a very playable AT but "overpowered" does not belong to the same sentence as Stalker. In fact, I think Stalker is more balanced for the game any other melee counter-parts. Certain ATs are doing "too much" damage if you ask me (given the right situation and right set combinations). |
Yes stalkers need attention but what degree I am not sure? Btw way the main argument in this thread was increaed HP cap not dmg modifing.
I dont really know what to say
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Basically it comes down to this one thing and one thing only that will get us dev attention. Someone has to ask about stalkers at Comic Con. If that does not happen stalkers will never get looked at period. I think if someone takes the time to go to comic con and asks this question instead of all the other retarded questions that usually gets asked at these kinds of events this will make an impact.
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Regarding this and your other post:|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Soooo we should nerf scrapper HP/HP cap down to Stalker's?
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I'd never ask for another AT to be nerfed. It's not my fault Stalkers haven't been taken into account in the last batch of nerfs and buffs. I just want Stalkers to be where they should, in light of the devs' attentions to other AT's.
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Well to be fair SS/Fire Brutes outclasses everything imo. I came back to the game after 1.5 years and been playing a SS/Fire, he does so much damage it isn't even funny. I don't think Stalkers need to have lotsa AoE (EM would be fine with TF critting for 2x imo), only MA stands out to me because I see no reason for so many ST attacks. EM at least has 2 big hitters, I just don't find it fair that I can both do stupid amounts of damage and apply a mag4 hold with seismic smash in less than half the animation time on my Brute while TF is a mag 3 stun, 3.3 cast time and doesn't crit properly.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
AoE is as much a part of damage dealing as melee is to Blasters. It's not a requirement but it's an advantage in a good deal of situations.
That said, it still makes no sense to me when poster complain about low AoE on their stalkers and how that SS/Fire so outclasses them. Do you honestly think having that Whirling Sword/Lotus Drop, or Whirling Hands or Dragons Tail will suddenly close that gap? Why not use your brain, cut out the middle man, stop wasting your time pining over attacks the AT never had and ask for sets like Fire Armor and Super Strength? |
And what you call 'nerf' to Brutes was a buff to me. Ok now Brutes take longer than scrappers (except maybe Fire Melee and Claws according to some scrapper math wizards) in soloing a Pylon but that's continuous DPS, I kinda agree with Jibikao that our burst damage should be higher than others. You'll still lose to scrappers and Brutes on teams and stuff in terms of clearing lots of mobs.
Going back to Brutes, I like them a lot more now (since I'm not soloing Pylons and AVs and couldn't care less) - I didn't like chasing fury like mad, another brute with taunt on the team could kill your fury in the old days. And you had 80-90% fury even when being the main aggro dealer for short times - walk down a hallway on a mission, you were doing crap damage again. Now with Fury decaying slower, I can wait for pulling if the mission is difficult because in no time I'll have 70% fury and do great damage (btw damage auras boosted by Fury are beautiful). I even made a post when I returned titled 'I'm rerolling all my Scrappers into Brutes because of the Fury change' and most people agreed with me they're more pleasant to play and do high damage in a more constant basis (slow Fury decay and you can get to 70% faster than before even only using your attacks when doms and trollers mez everything). In my post about this, there were seasoned Brute players that said they wouldn't have noticed the lower damage from not being able to reach 80-90% like before if they weren't told about the changes. I sure noticed because I had parked my Brutes long before I left and now besides having rolled 4 new ones (2 rerolls of 50 scrappers) I took two other ones to 50 because I simply love the fact I can keep Fury longer and get to 70% easily when it's down. (and although I feel my SS/Fire outclasses everything, even with weird slotting like taunt sets in ST attacks - I wanted a cheap farming build - I'm loving my claws/da, my dm/da and my old sm/ela which is the only high level toon I respecced for inherent fitness since GR is new to me and I've been playing new toons, I team regularly with a BS/Reg scrapper and I never feel he's doing more damage than my sm/elec).
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If you want to be precise, what Castle said was, "as strong as we want to make them" in reference to Stalkers. He didn't really leave the door open for ANY buff, let alone just damage buffing. He clarified this by saying that any further improvements would have to address those intrinsic problems with the game itself, rather than the AT. Which if you read between the lines was a way of saying, "So... don't hold your breath."|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
The way I see it, you guys are asking for damage and the devs said 'No.'
So what do you do? Ask for more damage, I guess >_> |
I still think it's a bit silly not to be able to talk about damage when Scrappers so clearly do more than Stalkers in most cases. At the very least, bring us up to their level. It can't be called power creep if we're not exceeding their damage level, can it?
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There's no reason that Assassin's Strike can't do different damage in PvP and PvE - almost every other attack power in the game does. Damage in PvP is never an excuse after issue 13 because power effects are separate.
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Originally Posted by untoldhero
Clearly disreguarding my earlier statement (pvp) 1.25 modifier would OP stalkers in pvp. Your telling me a hidden ,AS with 1.25 modifier wouldnt be OP? Thats scrapper dmg with stalker perks. Im sorry but although pvp may not be the main objective for 90% of players its still part of the game and im sure the devs want to try appeal to all tastes of player. I dont pvp but I may consider that stalkers are where they are because of it?
Yes stalkers need attention but what degree I am not sure? Btw way the main argument in this thread was increaed HP cap not dmg modifing. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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*LOGICAL FALLACY ALARM!*|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
*POWER CREEP ALARM!*
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There's no power creep when you increase the power of the weakest to perform up to the average. By not changing Scrappers when Brutes were changed, the devs already set the bar for desired performance as far as damage-to-survivability. Tankers got buffed (higher hp cap, Bruising for more damage) and Brutes got (slightly) nerfed. Stalkers are clearly underperforming.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I made a rather large post for this, and it got eaten. So, let me sum it up;
Stalker survivability is fine. Their HP should stay at Blaster level, who a lot of people forget is a Melee AT just as much as it's a Ranged AT. Stalkers also benefit from a superior secondary pull for survivability, so tl;dr = qq moar?
Stalker AoE is fine. They should not be on Scrapper level of AoE. Scrappers have their AoE prowess due to being pseudo-tanks when needed.
Stalker (and Blaster) damage is NOT fine and should be addressed. Stalker (And Blaster) should, by a margin, out-damage the other ATs.
And that's all.