Stalkers need dev attention even disregading other ATs
By
Angelic_EU,
Posted on: 2011-07-07 16:35 in Stalkers
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To be precise, they nerfed Brutes that were used to be on the "top performance" but I actually enjoy the new change more because I gain fury faster in the beginning and lose slower. I no longer have to keep this "go go go" mentality" all the time. Sure, I don't normally go above 70% but my Brute doesn't need to. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But the devs didn't use the 'metric' spoken here to reserve some observed dichotomy between Brutes, Tankers and Scrappers by *buffing* Scrappers. They *nerfed* Brutes.
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They may nerf Brute statistically at the top level, but the dev buff their gameplay (fun factor) for more players. A pure Nerf is losing something but get nothing in return.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I don't think it is soooooooo unhealthy to compare your favorite AT's performance against others. Just because some of the dev think "stalker is alright", it doesn't mean all the players have to agree with.
Adding more damage to Stalker is probably the "easiest" thing they can do to improve this AT.
There are countless ideas for buffing Stalker, which includes adding more debuffs (like -regen), giving each Assassin Strike unique properties, adding more controls..blah blah blah.
If I were the dev, I would think adding more debuffs/unique properties takes way more time than simply adjusting Stalker's damage.
There are more ways to increase Stalker's damage. They can simply increase modifier to 1.125 (which I am not a fan of but I won't complain if it did happen).
Or they can increase critical rate (which I prefer), introduce more circumstances that can boost Stalker's damage or modify current Build Up. Build Up exists in EVERY SET. They can start by increasing Build Up value to 100% or decreasing Recharge or increasing Duration (to 15s). All these can improve Stalker's burst damage potential.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Originally Posted by Zem
It can't be called power creep if we're not exceeding their damage level, can it?
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
*LOGICAL FALLACY ALARM!*
There's no power creep when you increase the power of the weakest to perform up to the average. |
And that still won't quell many who say, since the AT has the lowers survival it should have the most damage. Their argument *hinges* on power creep.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
To be precise, they nerfed Brutes that were used to be on the "top performance" but I actually enjoy the new change more because I gain fury faster in the beginning and lose slower. I no longer have to keep this "go go go" mentality" all the time. Sure, I don't normally go above 70% but my Brute doesn't need to.
They may nerf Brute statistically at the top level, but the dev buff their gameplay (fun factor) for more players. A pure Nerf is losing something but get nothing in return. |
The new Fury, while advantageous to my gameplay, may hamper the gameplay of another who followed the theme properly. When I play Brute, I'm prepared for 'go go go' and if not I play a Stalker or Scrapper. But now it doesn't matter. Brutes are like Scrappers but with a bar that hardly matters anymore.
I'd rather not Stalkers become Scrappers with that non-sequitur of a stealth power.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
There are more ways to increase Stalker's damage. They can simply increase modifier to 1.125 (which I am not a fan of but I won't complain if it did happen).
Or they can increase critical rate (which I prefer), introduce more circumstances that can boost Stalker's damage or modify current Build Up. Build Up exists in EVERY SET. They can start by increasing Build Up value to 100% or decreasing Recharge or increasing Duration (to 15s). All these can improve Stalker's burst damage potential. |
But rather than increasing the ATs overall damage potential, they should balance the sets themselves before making any such sweeping changes. Kinetic Melee does so well with its 100% crit AoE and Insta-recharge BU tier 9...why can't EM *DO* something when it crits? Energy Transfer *DOESN'T* take HP when it crits and Total Focus only *half does* anything.
Scrapper MA's Eagle's Claw does something cool by greatly enhancing crit rate for a short time, why can't Stalkers just get the same values for damage but have EC do exactly the same +crit that last longer?
For damage, the devs might have implied that *STALKERS* were strong enough but that also says nothing about Stalker's sets. Just leave the AT where its at...give its sets some Kinetic Melee touch ups.
As for the comment about me being inflammatory, oh well. If you don't like what I'm saying...
When Angry_Citizen was here during the changes, even he admit it pushed us away from what the AT was meant to be but it improved Stalkers to be competitive with the other melees. Since none of the other melees were buffed since then, I'm going to go with his version of 'par' as I'm sure he knew a lot more than you guys do.
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I find these remarks rather interesting, Leo. Not in the "I have a bone to pick" sense, but just in the "I've noticed the same thing" sense.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I have to agree that the new Brute Fury is kinda more of a buff for me. But then my playstyle is far and away from the 'go go go' nature of the AT.
Then another question pops up: "Is it okay to flip theme the bird?" The new Fury, while advantageous to my gameplay, may hamper the gameplay of another who followed the theme properly. When I play Brute, I'm prepared for 'go go go' and if not I play a Stalker or Scrapper. But now it doesn't matter. Brutes are like Scrappers but with a bar that hardly matters anymore. I'd rather not Stalkers become Scrappers with that non-sequitur of a stealth power. |
Recently more than one archetype has been changed to the detriment of "theme" and in favor of "performance." You gave the example of brutes, and I'd add doms to that, as well. Too many people were complaining that their dominators weren't doing enough damage (verses those who could get domination up on a consistent basis) and so domination was nerfed in favor of giving more damage to the archetype as a whole.
In other words, the Jekyll/Hyde theme was all but tossed away in favor of an overall change that made the archetype easier to play.
In fact, the entire game has been getting ridiculously easy, lately.
I have to say I agree with you here. Whole-heartedly.
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| When Angry_Citizen was here during the changes, even he admit it pushed us away from what the AT was meant to be but it improved Stalkers to be competitive with the other melees. Since none of the other melees were buffed since then, I'm going to go with his version of 'par' as I'm sure he knew a lot more than you guys do. |
AC was more than a little disappointed, and I saw his point. He wanted the archetype to be competitive within its theme, felt that the changes were way to gimmicky.
Even though one of those gimmicks was my suggestion at the time, I'd much rather not see more gimmicks added. Your suggestion about balancing the sets with each other with an eye to Kinetic Melee makes the most sense to me at this point.
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Oh, I will be the first to say that (and I've said it many times and even posted some ideas about making certain powers better to match Kinetic's features) they should improve certain sets first before increasing Stalker's overall damage.
Kinetic sets a very good example of how a Stalker-specific set should be designed/balanced. No Power Siphon feature? No Cone AoE attack? That's alright because Stalker has 100% critical in Burst and Build Up recharging feature. This is an excellent idea.
They need to look at Martial Arts and Energy Melee hard. We don't need 7 single target attacks. They took pbaoe out but what do the sets gain in return? It wasn't recently that Eagle Claw was given higher base damage (at the cost of longer recharge as well). Eagle Claw critical hard but this attack gives me a reason not to use Assassin Strike because AS takes too long to activate and has interruption. I rather just open the battle with BU + Eagle.
I would go back to the old sets and improve at least one power to make up the loss of pbaoe or the set's original feature (like follow-up in Claw and Dual Blade).
PS: I've always felt they don't spend enough time/thoughts on Stalker set until Kinetic Melee. I think they should treat Stalker set as Dominator's Assault set that requires more design/attention. The old sets feel like "let's take out one pbaoe, insert Assassin Strike, build up and placate and call it a Stalker set".
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Well that's kinda what I suggested in one item, you put it in better words.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'd rather not Stalkers become Scrappers with that non-sequitur of a stealth power.
Personally, I wish they would have done something with the critical *damage* rather than the rate. Yes, give the Stalkers that 10% base rate but keep it static. Where Stalkers should shine is the resulting damage. But rather than increasing the ATs overall damage potential, they should balance the sets themselves before making any such sweeping changes. Kinetic Melee does so well with its 100% crit AoE and Insta-recharge BU tier 9...why can't EM *DO* something when it crits? Energy Transfer *DOESN'T* take HP when it crits and Total Focus only *half does* anything. Scrapper MA's Eagle's Claw does something cool by greatly enhancing crit rate for a short time, why can't Stalkers just get the same values for damage but have EC do exactly the same +crit that last longer? |
100% crit AoE from hide, TF critting for double, I didn't say anything about EC because frankly I'm not familiar with MA and didn't know it wasn't buffed like for scrappers (I wasn't subbed when it happened), but I don't want Stalkers being Scrappers that can hide, I want them to be great precision killers and better at burst damage, not minion munchers or pylon soloers. Sure the 100% crit from AoE helps clearing mobs faster but it's not OP in anyway, nobody's complaining about KM for having the only AoE that does it or saying it's 'omg the best stalker set ever by a mile', although certainly it seems like a set done right.
That's why my only suggestion for adding AoEs is for MA because I don't see the point of all those ST attacks with similar dam/rech/end (Cobra Strike, CAK, Crane Kick) and maybe Claws' Eviscerate, I don't even take this power on scrappers/brutes but if the chance to crit for all AoEs were upped to 100% Evisc could be a nice little cone again for Stalkers.
One situation I remember (long ago) that Stalkers made all the difference: 8-man team, villainous cape mission (mine). I was the leader and there were 2 other stalkers, 3 brutes and 2 squishies. The Brutes dove in the huge Longbow mobs and got nearly instakilled and shortly after everyone else died too. After the hospital trips, I told that the 3 stalkers should move ahead and one-shot the longbow nullifiers (at level 22ish you can still one shot an orange lieut with BU+AS), since they were responsible for destroying the Brutes' resistances. The mission then went smooth as butter.
But well besides from that and my Em/Nin soloing the computer at the ITF after a teamwipe (I used Retsu), I don't remember my Stalkers making a lot of difference. And anyway in the ITF computer's case a /SR scrapper could probably do it faster, I just remember this because the team got all surprised that a STALKER soloed the damn thing that killed the rest of the team.
Stalkers have the trouble of being an archetype designed towards extremes, but they seem to be balanced away from them.
From what I can tell, it looks like the archetype was supposed to be the unseen, elimination archetype: weak when noticed, but capable of avoiding detection and dispatching foes quickly before they being taken down themselves.
...but the high ST burst damage had to be limited, so the burst powers all have timers. (Re-hide timer, placate timer, assisin strike cool down)
...but the burst damage had a ceiling, as eliminating some of the harder targets in-game in seconds, where extended battles were meant to happen was against game design. Burst damage must then be low enough that the hard targets can still fight back.
...but not all encounters can allow a player to sneak past, when a battle/repercussions are meant to happen, and some foes must sense hidden targets. You can't have entire stories where the caveat is "...and that would have happened, but they never found/caught the character, they were too sneaky."
...but their burst damage needs to be based around not being seen, otherwise what's the point of a sneaky archetype?
...but the stalker must be able to stand up to this sort of fight, or they'd lose.
...but they can't stand up too long, or they aren't the 'vulnerable but deadly' archetype.
Stalkers are a case of a specialist that cannot seem to be a specialist because of balance concerns, but can't be a generalist either. This seems to be why the devs have a hard time balancing, and seem hesitant to commit to go either way.
Honestly I'd be ecstatic if only Hide could get unsupressed stealth ala Energy Cloak for Brutes (and soon Scrappers). That alone would be an incredible buff IMHO.
EDIT - goes without saying, obviously, that the defense portion of Hide would still supress, otherwise Stalkers would go 'round with capped AoE defense. And also the "hidden" status would supress. Just clarifying: ONLY the stealth radius would remain unsupressed.
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Yeah, ever since I saw my buddy's energy aura brute smacking one mob around while a nearby mob disregarded him, I had to scratch my head and ask "Why can't me stalker do that?"
I think it's partially from the initial design of trying to be sneaky, and being 'found out' for doing the 'obvious,' but by this time I can only think it's because the devs have tweaked the AT, and aren't in a hurry to do so again.
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Is there a reason why Stalker's stealth is suppressed? Has anyone asked dev about this? This is another PvP reason?|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Honestly I'd be ecstatic if only Hide could get unsupressed stealth ala Energy Cloak for Brutes (and soon Scrappers). That alone would be an incredible buff IMHO.
EDIT - goes without saying, obviously, that the defense portion of Hide would still supress, otherwise Stalkers would go 'round with capped AoE defense. And also the "hidden" status would supress. Just clarifying: ONLY the stealth radius would remain unsupressed. |
I made a Dark/Energy Brute specifically for the unsuppressed stealth which is surprisingly fun.
It's another example of how Stalker "should" be the master of something and yet fails... nobody should stealth better than Stalker IMO. Stalker should also have unsuppressed stealth so he can move in to kill and sometimes not to be noticed.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Assassin Strike is useful at lower level but its effectiveness drops greatly when you can't even BU + AS a +2 Longbow Nullifier. That's why people ask for scaling damage but it's too hard to balance scaling.
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
One situation I remember (long ago) that Stalkers made all the difference: 8-man team, villainous cape mission (mine). I was the leader and there were 2 other stalkers, 3 brutes and 2 squishies. The Brutes dove in the huge Longbow mobs and got nearly instakilled and shortly after everyone else died too. After the hospital trips, I told that the 3 stalkers should move ahead and one-shot the longbow nullifiers (at level 22ish you can still one shot an orange lieut with BU+AS), since they were responsible for destroying the Brutes' resistances. The mission then went smooth as butter. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Assassin Strike's effectiveness drops the same way ANY other attack does. Mob hit points scale up by level faster than the power damage curve. This is just as true of your Eagle's Claw. If you're opening with BU+EC then you're doing less damage than opening with BU+AS followed by EC (or whatever the rest of your attack chain looks like). The only issue with AS is the potential for interrupt, so you don't use it when that is likely. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Assassin Strike is useful at lower level but its effectiveness drops greatly when you can't even BU + AS a +2 Longbow Nullifier. That's why people ask for scaling damage but it's too hard to balance scaling.
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That's not to say that a modest extra scaling of AS's damage wouldn't be welcome in PvE. It would be a nice unique feature of Assassin Strike and justify the difficulty of using it in combat. It would also make it more useful outside of Hide instead of being inferior to every other single-target attack you've got (in most powersets anyway).
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Perhaps historically, but at least nowadays all PvP stealth (StealthRadiusPlayer) is suppressible. That includes Energy Cloak, Cloak of Darkness, and Superior Invis. Adding +35 unsuppressed stealth to Stalker Hide would have zero effect on PvP.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Is there a reason why Stalker's stealth is suppressed? Has anyone asked dev about this? This is another PvP reason?
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Assassin Strike is only useful (in my opinion anyway) if it can effectively kill threats fast. During lower levels, AS has its use. At lvl 50? It sucks hard. |
Originally Posted by Zem
Assassin Strike's effectiveness drops the same way ANY other attack does. Mob hit points scale up by level faster than the power damage curve. This is just as true of your Eagle's Claw. If you're opening with BU+EC then you're doing less damage than opening with BU+AS followed by EC (or whatever the rest of your attack chain looks like). The only issue with AS is the potential for interrupt, so you don't use it when that is likely.
That's not to say that a modest extra scaling of AS's damage wouldn't be welcome in PvE. It would be a nice unique feature of Assassin Strike and justify the difficulty of using it in combat. It would also make it more useful outside of Hide instead of being inferior to every other single-target attack you've got (in most powersets anyway). |
Yes, I know AS's damage drops just like any other attack but if AS can't even kill a +2 Lieut, then its purpose is greatly reduced especially at the loss of a pbaoe.
And in the case of Eagle Claw, sometimes it is better for me to open with EC than AS. Example one, if I am fighting a boss with god mode. If I open with AS and then Eagle Claw, not only I won't kill him, he'll immediately use god mode and I have to spend more time messing with him. In this case, I would open with BU + EC and then Cobra. I have a good chance to stack two stuns on him and then I have a better chance finishing him off.
Another example is "overkill" situation. If I spend 6s to set up BU + AS, I might as well just use full BU duration to kill 2-3 targets.
At the loss of doing a bit less damage (BU + Eagle hits quite hard), I get mobility, speed, efficiency and less endurance cost (especially if I get interrupted). A good assassin needs to eliminate fast IMO. There's no time to set up 4-5s. You wanna kill something? Do it quick. That's my idea of assassin.
Yes, Assassin Strike needs to be faster (less activation time and no interruption), efficient (in terms of endurance cost) and deadly (needs to hit harder at lvl 50).
I guess my point is that in the case of Eagle Claw, it can be used efficiently as a mini-assassin strike because it critical hard and has no restrictions. I don't deny BU + AS hits hard...probably the hardest thing in the game.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I was actually going to bring up Domination but I forgot in my effort to make a somewhat coherent post. Things get muddled while I'm typing them so I have to go back and reread to make sure it makes sense but I just forgot that part.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I find these remarks rather interesting, Leo. Not in the "I have a bone to pick" sense, but just in the "I've noticed the same thing" sense.
Recently more than one archetype has been changed to the detriment of "theme" and in favor of "performance." You gave the example of brutes, and I'd add doms to that, as well. Too many people were complaining that their dominators weren't doing enough damage (verses those who could get domination up on a consistent basis) and so domination was nerfed in favor of giving more damage to the archetype as a whole. In other words, the Jekyll/Hyde theme was all but tossed away in favor of an overall change that made the archetype easier to play. In fact, the entire game has been getting ridiculously easy, lately. I have to say I agree with you here. Whole-heartedly. |
But yes, I was actually one of the opponents of taking away the Jekyll/Hyde duality from the AT. But that was when I played doms alot...I haven't played much of them lately if only because they're alot less interesting to me. They're great, powerful and a boon to any team and I *want* to play them but I never get around to it.
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
Well that's kinda what I suggested in one item, you put it in better words.
100% crit AoE from hide, TF critting for double, I didn't say anything about EC because frankly I'm not familiar with MA and didn't know it wasn't buffed like for scrappers (I wasn't subbed when it happened), but I don't want Stalkers being Scrappers that can hide, I want them to be great precision killers and better at burst damage, not minion munchers or pylon soloers. Sure the 100% crit from AoE helps clearing mobs faster but it's not OP in anyway, nobody's complaining about KM for having the only AoE that does it or saying it's 'omg the best stalker set ever by a mile', although certainly it seems like a set done right. |
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Originally Posted by Zem
Assassin Strike's effectiveness drops the same way ANY other attack does. Mob hit points scale up by level faster than the power damage curve. This is just as true of your Eagle's Claw. If you're opening with BU+EC then you're doing less damage than opening with BU+AS followed by EC (or whatever the rest of your attack chain looks like). The only issue with AS is the potential for interrupt, so you don't use it when that is likely.
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For Energy Melee, I'd probably say chuck more AoE control into it. Make ET's stun splash and critting with TF providing an Auto-Hit PBAoE stun along with it's extra portion of damage. But then that's just me wishing to diversify sets. MA can be the quick hard-hitter melee specialist while EM can be the slow hard-hitter control specialist. And now that we've got 2 stun aura armors, EM (and to a lesser extend Electric melee) would be the sets providing the controls.
DM would be for debuffs. I'd like to say a critical hit with any DM attack would splash some -ToHit around the target while a critical Assassin's Eclipse giving a 5sec time period of your attacks splashing -ToHit, but that might be too strong. But an alternate 'Soul Drain' type of effect, where killing a foe with Midnight Grasp instantly recharges BU would certainly give the set a new dynamic similar to KM's critting Concentrated Strike recharging BU.
I could go on but we'd probably need to see if revisiting sets for revisions like this is even palpable. I figure since they did decide to revisit Scrapper MA even though it wasn't 'that bad', this can't be completely off the radar.
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You're entitled to an opinion, but frankly this doesn't make much logical sense. AS can't kill a +2 LT in your example, so it's "useless" but an attack that does even less damage is not useless?|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Assassin Strike is only useful (in my opinion anyway) if it can effectively kill threats fast. During lower levels, AS has its use. At lvl 50? It sucks hard.
Yes, I know AS's damage drops just like any other attack but if AS can't even kill a +2 Lieut, then its purpose is greatly reduced especially at the loss of a pbaoe. |
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| And in the case of Eagle Claw, sometimes it is better for me to open with EC than AS. Example one, if I am fighting a boss with god mode. If I open with AS and then Eagle Claw, not only I won't kill him, he'll immediately use god mode and I have to spend more time messing with him. |
Speaking of Cimerora and god modes though, you know what's a great time to use AS? Right before a Minotaur or Cyclops gets to the point where it does use its god mode. Timed right (and it can be difficult to do so) it's a thing of beauty. I've had them drop dead just as they are starting the animation of beating their chests to enter god mode. And even if they don't they are left with very little health to chew through at the higher resistance.
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| At the loss of doing a bit less damage (BU + Eagle hits quite hard), I get mobility, speed, efficiency and less endurance cost (especially if I get interrupted). A good assassin needs to eliminate fast IMO. There's no time to set up 4-5s. You wanna kill something? Do it quick. That's my idea of assassin. |
As for endurance, it's uses LESS than EC, not more. Again, it only costs more if you're interrupted.
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| I guess my point is that in the case of Eagle Claw, it can be used efficiently as a mini-assassin strike because it critical hard and has no restrictions. I don't deny BU + AS hits hard...probably the hardest thing in the game. |
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Currently, some Stalkers can out DPS some Scrappers. However, some Scrappers can put up some numbers that no Stalker can touch due to persistent damage buffs - of a higher magnitude, and to a higher base damage - along with additional damage sources in a few secondaries which Stalkers don't have access to.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I think the problem comes with the method of doing so. Such as currently, Stalkers *can* out DPS Scrappers. But apparently it's too circumstantial for you guys so 'it doesn't count'. The only way, for the majority arguing for more power, is the most simplistic, straightforward, "screw theme just give me dmg" approach. The damage has to be here, all the time, no strings attached. It can't be tied down to AS. And if it is, we have to be "justified" for such 'limitations'.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'd rather not Stalkers become Scrappers with that non-sequitur of a stealth power.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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No, AS's problem is even more obvious in sets like Martial Arts (haven't tried Energy Melee but it seems that way to me as well) that already has one big hitter (or two big hitters TF and ET). |
Originally Posted by Zem
And there are certainly cases you should use EC instead of AS. Not saying there aren't. But I do think you exaggerate AS's problems. I know you prefer AoE but AoE accomplishes something different. It may do more total damage, but that damage is spread out amongst multiple targets. If your goal is to kill a boss, it doesn't accomplish that. If your goal is simply to do the most total orange numbers then yeah... AoE. But that's not always what a team needs. AoE is quite common in this game. ST is as well, but those with AoE will favor using AoE. To me that leaves plenty of opportunity to take a nice chunk out of a boss as an opener. I use it all the time on teams. I even have targetting macros I modify for the content I am running so I can quickly pick out the bosses in any spawn. Works great.
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I don't necessary prefer AoE but I do believe every set needs to have at least one aoe. There is a difference. Prefer means I only like sets like Spines which I don't. I believe a healthy mix of ST and AoE. Hell, Dragon Tail (or Whirling Hand) is not even the best pbaoe in the game but it sure beats not having any at all. Having it means you have the OPTION. You don't need to spam it but at least when the situation is right, you can use it effectively. Not having it means you don't even have that option.
At the loss of pbaoe and mobility, yes, I do expect a lot more from Assassin Strike. I do think the purpose of AS is better during lower levels. The damage just doesn't scale up well when the content gets harder and when you have access to lvl 32 power like Eagle Claw and Midnight Grasp. And of course it's all by comparison as well. When Stalker has Assassin Strike at lvl 6, most ATs don't even have a heavy hitter. In that case, Stalker's burst ST damage has a good purpose to take down an annoying boss. But once you are at lvl 50, most ATs can deliver "high enough" burst damage to the point that setting up Assassin Strike is just not effective. "Useless" is probably too strong of a word choice.
We did weekly ITF last night and I took out my 51 Kin/Dark. I only used BU + AS once in 3rd stage on the computer. That was it. All the other time it was unnecessary. It was too slow or the damage wasn't enough for the time spent or it was overkill if I need to kill a Surgeon.
Assassin Strike can be useful if you are Spines since that will be your best heavy hit to start the battle.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I agree. The other ATs, barring specific combinations (an ice/ice blaster has a lot of mitigation, /mm is good against AVs because of Drain Psyche for -regen, etc), they are damage-only ATs mostly.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I guess my previous statements were directed at those that were stating it would be balanced for Stalkers to plainly outdamage Brutes/Scraps. Honestly, all 3 ATs (4 if you count Blasters) really only bring damage. If one totally outdoes the others, you basically take away a reason to play the ones that don't do the same damage. That isn't to say I think we should keep Stalkers inferior, but that damage is just one thing among many that could change such as delivery, debuff, safety and so forth.
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That's why I agree with Jibikao only patially - I think Stalkers should outdamage the other melee ATS in the first damage burst - like KM already does from Hide (or the bugged fireball), or a BU+AS does on a boss. I don't have a KM toon but from the numbers it seems doing a BU+Burst from Hide is the most damaging low short recharging AoE you can do since it's 100% crit (I'm excluding crashless nukes, just considering normal every-spawn opener, for example scrapper L. Rod isn't usable every spawn unless you are also /sd and have a high end build, but that's an outliar, I think my SS/FA Brute with a Rage+FE+Fury Footstomp mught do more damage than a 100% crit Burst but in most cases any 100% crit AoE - something that would be unique to all Stalkers if applied to the other powersets - would make for great openers and also fit with 'Stalkers outdamaging everyone on a Burst, but not outdamaging Brutes and Scrappers on regular play after that).
And that's it, not outdamage them all the time like he suggests, but at least doing a nice 'opening move' since you're a precision killer and you're hidden and etc.
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Know what's funny? My SM/Elec Brute was on a team last night and after gathering some fury she one shot several orange lieuts with Seismic Smash. And I didn't use BU before, the damage is so good on that toon I only bother with BU when I use Tremor because Tremor is sucky for damage. I'm level 40 on her but was playing on a lvl 50 team.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Assassin Strike is only useful (in my opinion anyway) if it can effectively kill threats fast. During lower levels, AS has its use. At lvl 50? It sucks hard.
Yes, I know AS's damage drops just like any other attack but if AS can't even kill a +2 Lieut, then its purpose is greatly reduced especially at the loss of a pbaoe. |
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And Seismic Smash has mag 4 hold. So it's BOTH huge st damage on top of hard control on most bosses.
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
Know what's funny? My SM/Elec Brute was on a team last night and after gathering some fury she one shot several orange lieuts with Seismic Smash. And I didn't use BU before, the damage is so good on that toon I only bother with BU when I use Tremor because Tremor is sucky for damage. I'm level 40 on her but was playing on a lvl 50 team.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Stalker needs to have a "clear" advantage in damage over Brute/Scrapper due to less survival. Right now, there is no clear advantage. To out-damage Scrapper in first 10s, Assassin Strike needs to be used. This isn't a clear advantage on Stalker's part because Stalker loses mobility. To do SIMILAR Scrapper damage in the long run, Stalker needs to have 7 teammates around him but this excludes any secondary that offers even more damage or stacking buffs like follow-up. |
Originally Posted by Kioshi
And that's it, not outdamage them all the time like he suggests, but at least doing a nice 'opening move' since you're a precision killer and you're hidden and etc. |
I am not suggesting Stalker should one-shot everything in this game. lol But right now, Assassin Strike and team critical isn't 'free'. There are conditions. Stalker doesn't have a clear advantage in terms of damage over Scrapper and some Brute and I think the dev should address that. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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And once both are damage capped, Stalker must only overcome the % difference in damage mods which it's varying crit rates + controlled crits can do.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Currently, some Stalkers can out DPS some Scrappers. However, some Scrappers can put up some numbers that no Stalker can touch due to persistent damage buffs - of a higher magnitude, and to a higher base damage - along with additional damage sources in a few secondaries which Stalkers don't have access to.
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See? It's basically 'they *can* but it doesn't count!'. So it's thrown out the window and disregarded. And once a couple of more sets that close the gap for AoE crop up(have you seen the set-up for the new Street Justice set?), that's even *less* of an argument for you to stand on.
Again, apparently the circumstances for the Stalker outdamaging the Scrapper are just not good enough for some so we'll just slide into Stalkers becoming Scrappers. Yeah, no reason to use AS (or AS will just be morphed into a generic attack). No conditions involved, no effort, no strategy. You just smash buttons and things will die very quickly.
*Hands the players their Stalkpper*
Considering I've been 'wrong' about so many other QoL changes like inherent fitness, the domination change, the assassination changes and defiance, I wouldn't put it past the devs to dumb down the AT so that it was a Scrapper analog with some stealth. >_>
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Which implies team content, where AoE damage is almost always going to be a more significant contribution to the team; with a single notable exception, Stalkers sacrifice one of their AoE damage powers for an interruptible single-target power that really only shines when used from hidden status. On top of that, such situations are the ones where damage auras - which Stalkers have none of - add a significant contribution.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And once both are damage capped, Stalker must only overcome the % difference in damage mods which it's varying crit rates + controlled crits can do.
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Beyond that, it's not what the Stalker does that allows them to exceed Scrapper DPS via a higher critical rate - it's what their team does, and that's not something that they can control.
I actually like Stalkers for soloing because most of the time it's not just button-mashing (that's what Brutes are for); but with the way the game is set up, on teams button-mashing is pretty much all you need. I just think that if the devs are going to try to force balance on melee ATs they should force it on all of them. I want some consistency.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Second, it's relevant since if someone's complaining that everything is dead before Assassin's Strike goes off, they probably did something else beforehand.
Third, get over yourself. You're not the sole voice on these forums and you're definitely the most inflammatory one in this thread.