A personal account of my first Keyes trial; some people aren't meant for raiding

I really had to think long and hard about even making this post. I'll say up front I'm going to do my best not to say anything disparaging about this Trial or any Trial experience.

I didn't want to write this to generate sympathy for myself as I want none, but more to articulate my experience which may be the same as others or as a point of commonality. Additionally, I'm not writing this to take potshots at the people I did my first Keyes trial with, nor will I divulge names. And finally, I'm writing this for me, because putting it into words at least for me is a good thing.

I've written on these forums that I'm not really a raider, and part of it is my mentality, for want of a better word. Here's the thing; when I ask people why they raid or why they strive to be a particular level of excellence in the game, they either say it's for the challenge or to win.

And as odd as it sounds, I'm a gamer who...doesn't want to win. It's not because I don't enjoy challenging my own personal boundaries, but for as long as I can remember, I've found that working with people as a group or team or whatever is more satisfying to me than competing against them. I like the feeling of helping someone out and acheiving a goal as a group rather than individually. I like the feeling of shared purpose much more than I do 'winning' (I'm not even really sure what that means). And I don't feel I have anything to prove by having the best powers/enhancements/badges/whatever. To me, I take immense satisfaction in the stories I write, the characters I craft and the creativity I feel when I make videos. If that's winning, then I like 'winning' at that.

I should also say that I have raided in fantasy games before. I've also PvPed, crafted and badge hunted, all out of a sense to be fair-minded to the activity even if I should only do it once and say 'this isn't for me'.

Okay, that preface is out of the road. So last night, with an hour or so before I was due to visit a sick friend, I thought in the interests of being fair-minded and open to an experience, I would try a Keyes Trial. A very nice person invited me to a group, and an experienced raider who I'd met before sent me tells about what would happen, though it felt very abstract to hear it without seeing what was meant. I was open and honest and said I didn't take trials very seriously; I have to feel engaged and immersed in a story, as silly as that may sound for a raid. Anti-Matter's speech was kind of...well...unbelievable. Wouldn't this whole scenario that he was potentially going to blow up Praetoria be like...well..not a raid? It seemed too important to be something that was just repeatable ad infinitum. But I put that aside.

There were a few minutes to prepare and I listened to the best of my ability to what was being said, though I hoped that someone would run with me and basically point me in the right direction. Unfortunately, when the raid started, everyone just....charged off. I like to get my bearings, get an understanding of the situation, and people were halfway up ramps, fighting robots and I was on my own, feeling bewildered and confused. Someone said to target them, but people were moving around so much, all I got was the name and a direction that was basically 'ahead'.

Then I got hit by the first damage pulse, but didn't know where to find a healer.


I have to pause here and explain something. I'm not stupid or naive or a noob. What I am is a person who has for a few years now dealt with stress and anxiety due to some very bad events. What this means is someone like me needs a controlled situation, calm thinking and a lack of surprises. If anyone suffers from this, they know what I'll mean when I say that the feeling of anxiety is a feeling of loss of control, an overwhelming sensation of things being 'too much'. It sounds silly to say about a game, but the game is an escape from those things and a game is a manageable situation, or so I thought. I've never talked about this condition on this forum, and I had to think seriously about saying so.

So. Eventually I was able to find other people on the first tower only to be told that they'd moved to the second tower. People were shouting all over the place, things were spawning on top of me and killing me and....that was all she wrote. I felt tears welling up in my eyes, my hands began to shake to the point I couldn't type and the most I could do because my overwhelming instinct was to just 'stay there, stay RIGHT THERE', I refused a rez.

A game shouldn't be stressful. It shouldn't be causing anxiety. And yet it was and I felt upset and horribly embarrassed, telling people as best I could what was going on and handing over whatever the heck the temporary powers were to someone.

I knew I just needed a few minutes to calm down and just do what I could to offer my services in the limited way I could. So I did that, hitting NPC's where I could (I literally must have attacked five NPC's in the thirty or fourty minutes I was online) and did my best to stay with the pack.

I have to say right now the text that supposedly guides you is useless and would be better as a voiceover or something. It spawned under my team window and so of course I missed everything.

Somewhere along the lines some warehouses or something were destroyed, people moved onto the third tower and somehow this set up a showdown with Anti-Matter in a yard or something.

As is the case when you're overwhelmed with anxiety, the reflex reaction is to shut off emotionally to protect yourself and so I just stopped caring about what I did in the Trial from that point on. So then of course I missed the advice about protective circles and unresistable freeze attacks and super-damaging attacks.

I must've hit Anti-Matter maybe...twice, I suppose. I'd never felt less useful or worthless in a group situation ever. His attacks felt...well, like someone was cheating to win, somehow.

But in the end, Anti-Matter was beaten, everyone said good job and promptly logged off, bar a few kind souls who were at least aware enough to talk to me and ask if I was okay. To them I say thank you very much.

But emotionally I felt hurt. Hurt that everyone just seemed motivated by perfection or 'winning' or whatever to the point that noone bar one person sought me out and said 'follow me, I'll help you'. I can't even imagine not doing that for someone. It's just in my nature to be a helper. I mean, it's just a silly game, right? Shouldn't I help someone if they ask?

I came away angry, tearful, swearing if I did that Trial again that I would only ever do it with people I could trust, and protesting in my mind that I wish the Trials would just go away. That any sense of fun and open-mindedness I had put me in a situation I wanted to avoid.

One person in this forum said that they're the right kind of person for this raid; I am the person they are not. I'm sure people who may read this post may say 'oh, you won't get it til the third or fourth try' and my response is why would I do that to myself more than once? People may also post and say that I'm whining about some sense of entitlement and that I should learn to play or that it's not really that hard and I should be thankful it's not as bad as some.

Why should I be thankful for any experience that's a negative reinforcement and something I work continually against with a positive one?

I honestly came away from that Trial thinking that all it did was promote greed, unhealthy competition and if anything, a lack of any sense of teamwork or camraderie. I stress that this is the way I thought, and I mean no disrespect to anyone on that Trial or to those who do them.

I also came away thinking that if I were to meet a Dev, I would say the same thing to them. I would say that I'm not the audience for this. I would say I would like some of the rewards you're offering, but I won't do it this way. I've tried, and I can't. I may build up a resistance to the stress of that Trial, but do I really want to have my impressions just reinforced? A strong part of me thinks that there is no other experience than that. That there are no helpful, considerate people who think more about the people than the rewards.

I accept completely that is negative thinking on my part that will find the worst in a situation and amplify it and try and turn it on myself. That is the nature of such things. I'm certain people aren't like that, else I wouldn't be a six-year veteran of this game come this month.

Anyways, I feel better for typing this, and I hope that people who do raid can see the other side of the situation and those who don't can find some commonality here as I said earlier.

I deeply apologise if I've angered anyone with this post, and if I've crossed any forum lines with what I've written, I'm okay with having it removed. I do hope sincerely a developer or a community manager like Zwillinger or Beastyle or Freitag sees this and takes a moment to acknowledge the situation.

I ask for no favors or special treatment or changes to the Incarnate system or anything else. That was never the point of this. I only ask that people read with an open mind.

Thank you.



S.

I know you said you didn't want sympathy, but I still give mine to you. I inwardly we may have been on the same trial and I was yet another person who passed you by, if I was, I am sincerely sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

An excellent and articulate post. Hopefully they will get those solo I-reward things going. I was gonna add a note about the fanboi posts that are gonna come here, but you have been here a long time so you know ALL about them. Take care.

Sorry you had a bad experience. I will say that I actually like this particular trial as a mission. However I can definitely see why some people wouldn't.

There's a lot that goes on in that trial. Unfortunately, people didn't notice your distress. Even if you were giving out visible signs of it in-game, I would've probably assumed you were lagging momentarily, or just distracted.

If you need help, please just ask.

I've done keyes twice now. Each time I said I'd never do it again so why did I do it the second time? I got into a league and when they said they were going to do keyes I told myself to be nice and stay because I hate to join a group and then quit as soon as I get invited. Keyes is almost virtually impossible to do. I like to play the game but then at the same time I like to relax. Keyes is too wound up for me. It's like everyone is running around crazily going so fast. I like a more relaxed mode so keyes is not for me. Someone said that you had to try it three or four times to get the hang of it. I guess I'm just one that won't get the hang of it because I'm not doing it again.

Thank you for such an honest and revealing post, Super Oz.
That's not exactly easy stuff to talk about and I respect that you have. It is such a great thing to share that level of stuff with other people, because there are absolutely others who have similar experiences.
And I understand those sorts of reactions, as I have dealt with people very close to me who have similar reactions to things. And, in fact, play with someone who has similar reactions to intense video game experiences.
While video games don't elicit such responses from me, I have actually dealt with tremendous amounts of anxiety as well and, as you mentioned, it stems from other bad stuff that's happened and then finds its way into other places for you to deal with at wonderfully fun times.

Anyway, you're completely right in not making this about sympathy or an attack on the trial system or any such thing...
What it is a realistic expression of, however, is how it is simply not fun to limit really nice, silly and fun rewards behind a single type of extreme/specific content.

People all have their different paces that they may enjoy moving through this video game we all share an enjoyment of.
I just don't like seeing one single aspect of gaming getting rewards that could easily be available across the board, for all types of gamers.

I don't need special rewards, earned from my chosen enjoyments, to be cut off from others unless they do what I enjoy.

Anyway, your post is a very extreme example of how we're all different and nobody needs to feel better or lesser for it.
It's just silly fun time goodness... let's try and keep it that way for everyone.


*friendly hugs for all*



EDIT:
Also... I meant to say that I share your desire and interest in not racing through, but also in taking care of my fellow gamer, team/leaguemates.
Nothing in the game is so important to not allow us to take the time necessary to get everyone up-to-speed, make sure we're all having a good time and to spread a feeling of camaraderie.
If we're not going to bother doing that, then why wouldn't we just play solo? Heh.

I'd rather run out of time and fail than rush through and succeed, if the difference is sharing the moment with others and making sure people are learning, understanding and, most importantly, having fun.

I am sorry that you had such a terrible first Keyes experience, and that your condition made it even worse. I hope that that you don't give up on Trials, because they can definitely be enjoyable.

Given your condition, maybe read over this and future Trial formats on the forums. If you suffer from such anxiety, it may help to have a clearer picture of what to expect. I know for certain that if I expereinced the same condition that I would prefer to have a birds eye view of a newly released trial.

Here is my specific advice for Keyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperOz Then I got hit by the first damage pulse, but didn't know where to find a healer.

Try using the team/league window to find ATs that have Empathy, Pain, Thermal, Radiation, and other skills sets with heals. Send one of these players a tell and let them know that your character lacks a heal and that you will be sticking close to them during the trial. This helps both you and the "healer" because they will know that your proximity will usually allow them to use the bigger single target heals on you.

You also want to have a full tray of inspiration heals. The crux of the mission is dealing with Anti Matter's radiation pulse, and inspirations will go a LONG way to mollifying this. When you die, be sure to spend a few seconds restocking on inspirations.

These trial, especially this one, are frantic, fast paced affairs. The reason why no one stopped to help you is that they can't. It's a nature of this trial especially. Stop and you die. Must keep moving, fighting, trying to survive. It is frantic and confusing the first run. I also find it incredibly exciting and fun. Obviously, you prefer a more slow and deliberate style. If you run these trials a few more times, you eventually learn their flow pretty well. Whether that is at all worth the trouble for you is entirely your choice. It sounds like the fast paced nature of this thing makes it likely that it woudln't be, but that's up to you.

EDIT: also, in my case, I thrive on pressure. The greatest thing for me is to come very close to losing a trial only to pull it off in the end.

Yeah, I can understand why people react badly to this trial now. The Keyes trial, especially, is not a relax affair. Even when you know what's happening, there's a tension and level of chaos present in it that is not present in the other ones. Which is what I love about them.

Have you done BAF lately? It's basically rote and boring at this point, now that everyone has it down. If you want trial rewards I'd recommend doing that one, there's not a ton of movement that has to happen unless you are a tank.

I sympathize about your plight but I do have some questions about it. Particularly on your point about how no one stopped to check on you and help you out. How would they know something is wrong? What sort of clues were you giving? In games when you have an expressionless avatar there are nearly no non verbal clues to have an idea something is wrong with someone, and most of the non verbal clues point to technical issues more than player issues.

I will try to be more aware of these issues on trials I run and try to make them less traumatic for some people. Even on the ones I'm not "in charge" of I seem to get stuck as the guy who explains how the trial works. I also give warnings before starting that the trial is pretty chaotic and people need to make sure league chat is on a chat tab that won't get scrolled off by combat spam because instruction will be given at each stage. So I can see these things being pretty exasperating if no one explains anything.

Would those have helped you? What steps can someone take to avoid problems as much as possible?

I'll just toss out the idea that this was done with a PuG, and not with a number of friends. Friends who know you would have been able to deal with the situation far better if for no other reason they would have slowed down and taken it at a pace that you could have handled for as much as the trial would allow.

Saying that, I went through my own period of time where I had anxiety attacks when playing Kin, which is almost comical considering at one point me rolling a Kin was like me breathing. That was just me playing it without the shouts of "SB meh" adding to the pressure. I don't think I touched the set for over a year if not two.

The few BAFs and one Lambda I've been on have all been such rapid chaotic affairs with nobody really bothering to chat or explain what's going on.

I think I know what to do on the BAF now (kill robots, then kill fools, then kill Nighwing and Seige at the same rate?) but nobody's really explained it. The text also spawns under a window for me (in my case the map) so it's useless.

They give us total freedom in where we want the various components of our UI to be on our screens, and then they in essence say 'oh, bit not up in the top left of the screen'.

For me, the BAF is sth I have to endure in order to get my incarnate stuff.

That's surely not what the Devs want, unless their aim is to get people doing the iTrials for any reason at all, not just because they enjoy them. Datamining doesn't reveal the expressions on iTrialers faces, does it?

Mine's generally a resigned grimace.

Eco

Edit: to the OP, if you want the Incarnate ztuff, I'd recommend the BAF. It's not difficult, it all happens on a tennis court, and you only have to put up with it for half hour or so. Everyone fights in a big blob so you dont need to go looking for healers either.

It's rubbish tbh lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Hey Oz,

I was there under Paladin with you last night. I just want to let you know that (with the exception of myself towards the end) everyone was very supportive of you and your disability. I have to admit, I thought you were engaging in some epic trolling towards the end, but you have to admit yourself that asking someone to stay with you while you were KOed on the ground in a previously completed section was a little extreme, right?

We also tried to explain how to find us - how to leave the hospital, then to click on the team members name to locate someone who was part of the big group that you could follow. I understand that while you were under a lot of stress that even basic things can be difficult to do, but there's only so much we as other players can do. I would have come and caught you up if I weren't busy drawing Anti-Matter around. But - I have to say, the entire raid was extremely gracious and concerned with your safety, stressing that if you were having health issues to please take care of yourself, and that we wouldn't hold it against you if you had to stay either in the Hospital or leave the raid entirely due to stress.

I provided the detailed instructions to you in tells because I didn't want you going in blind, and I hope that at least giving you an idea of what was going to happen alleviated some of it. From your comments while our team leader got the raid together, it seemed like you were concerned, so I took it upon myself to at least try to help.

No one on the team was really motivated by putting himself above others, but rather coming together to accomplish something great and fun, as a team. And as a team, I again have to stress that everyone was very gracious, even when you made it clear that you would most likely not enjoy yourself.

From your comments before the raid it was clear that you weren't entirely thrilled to be there, but I'll commend you for giving something a shot at least once. However, if you do have a medical issue it's a good thing to let your teams know that before a raid is under way or before you start to exhibit symptoms like you said you did. But as the raid went on, and without any notice that you had these issues during the 20 minutes+ while the team was ready and waiting to start, it honestly seemed like you were trying to troll up a horror story.


It crossed my mind that maybe you had waited until we were sincerely engaged to tell us about your medical condition, and begin asking people to stop what they were doing to stand by you in order to evoke a hostile response - one which I was pleasantly surprised did not come. Everyone was considerate, and with the exception of one comment from me ("..epic troll is epic") there was nothing even remotely negative that went on in league or team chat. I do apologize for thinking you a troll, but I'm confused where the idea that people were off focused on winning comes from, when everyone did all they could to accommodate you, short of either stopping the raid entirely or removing you from the league in order to free you from the stress.

However, now that I see there's a post on the forums about this I don't know what to think. It doesn't really match up with what I saw, though.

I may never do a i-trial

I dont get it. Is this like a vent of some kind? If it is thats fine it, sounds like you needed it and I truly hope you feel better.

If its supposed have a point then color me confused, some people seem to be relating with anti keyes posts but that doesnt really make sense to me since your issues arent the trial but whatever this disability is.

Also, Paladins post shows theres two sides to every story.

I understand how you feel. I like to play to have fun, and if an iTrial is disorganized, poorly communicated, uncooperative - basically if it comes to the point where it's not even worth the Astrals/Empyrean merits to finish the trial, I just quit. And I've done it plenty of times when it's no longer fun or too stressful.

One irony for me abt iTrials (and TFs in general, tbh) is that if They scaled so I could solo them or at least duo them with a friend (I am in an SG of 3 people lol), they would be great, I think. But in a group of 24, they're just AoE lagfests.

Eco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

I have a couple of things to say on the matter.

First of all, people who don't get stressed physically cannot appreciate what people who DO get stressed feel like. It's not just a case of simple confusion or lack of experience, it's a case of genuine discomfort, and as Oz explains, the easiest, most natural reaction to that situation is to simply shut down. For an outside observer, it's really hard to tell and, moreover, really hard to appreciate the full scope of the situation. More than anything else, this IS NOT FUN.

I don't have a pre-existing medical condition of the sort, myself (none that I'm aware of, anyway), but I fully understand the stress that comes inherent when situations spiral out of your control, yet at the same time you are compelled by circumstances to keep acting without chance to pause and gather your thoughts. That's one big reason why I avoid "fast" teams and why I get so pissed off when teams start employing some complex strategy without explaining what they're doing. Because in those situations, my reaction is to take my hands off the keyboard and close my eyes, but I CAN'T as I've taken on a responsibility to the team by joining into a task which requires my help.

Secondly, people don't appreciate how stressful dealing with large groups of other people can be. This seems to be specifically the case for those who thrive in such environments. However, the mere fact remains that even if a group is sitting idle, doing nothing but chatting, this can still be a very chaotic, very stressful situation if you happen to end up in a large group of "quirky" extroverts. That's one reason I almost never do voice chat if there are more than two other people in the channel. The way people behave in large groups is very different from the way they behave face-to-face.

Not everyone is good at dealing with large groups of people, and even those who are often pay in stress for this ability. I'm in the awkward position of being pretty good with people, meaning people I team with never appreciate how much effort being as cooperative is costing on my end of the keyboard. It also means that when we're done with a large, gruelling team task and everyone's pumped for more, my desire to just shut down the game, lie down and recharge is seen as ungrateful. Did I not have fun? Was the team not good enough? That's not the point. Dealing with people in itself is taxing and stressful for some of us, even if we've learned to be good at it.

Finally - and this is speaking purely for myself - I care about my fellow players before I care about my game, at least when they're not calling me mean names. That's one reason I don't want to team as often - I don't want to have to worry about other people's experience. What this means is I'm far more concerned with looking after other players than I am with "winning" at a task, which is what I believe Oz was talking about. My mentality is that if you're not teaming for the company and benefit of others, then you're playing a single-player game that just happens to have other people in it.

That's one reason I don't like high stakes, dangerous team tasks - the imperative to "win" at those is so high that it sometimes overshadows what I consider to be the bigger imperative: We're all here to have fun, and we team together to have even more fun than we could have alone. When I get on a team, my prerogative is not to draw some kind of meta-game advantage out of having other people, and I worry when game systems are designed to promote that as it leads to sacrificing other people for the sake of my own fun. My prerogative is socialise with said people and find a way to have fun together, even if we ultimately fail.

I've often said that City of Heroes is the most fun when things go wrong. What I mean by that is that I don't like the game when it's all going by the numbers, everyone is quiet and following the perfect plan step by step and I may as well be playing a bot match. It is when things go wrong and we on the team end up needing each other in more ways than just power balance - when we end up needing each other for moral support, for organisation and for actual cooperation - that is when I have the most fun. The team game in City of Heroes really shines when the actual people behind the characters step forward and act on their own personalities. Watching a jumble of weird costumes bathed in a soup of effects isn't nearly as interesting.

---

If we should take anything out of this thread, it's that not everyone is right for Trials, and that's OK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I have several people in my family that suffer from anxiety, so I understand that dealing with the symptoms can be quite challenging. However, I also feel that because of these challenges, you have to be your own advocate, especially on the internet where folks will have no idea about your background or a limited understanding of how to help someone suffering from anxiety. If you find that a part of the game or trial is causing you to experience severe symptoms, it would probably best to excuse yourself from the trial and take care of yourself. There will always be other opportunities to try it if you still wanted to and your health is always more important than anything going on in a game.