Proliferation requests
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-05-25 16:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Except that it wasn't the truth. Ice Melee/Ice Armor didn't have any more trouble generating fury than some of the other sets that Brutes did get. However, in I6, Ice Melee was HORRIBLE. One weak AoE (the cone), and poor single target damage. The controls slowed fury generation, but no more so than Dark Armor did. With the changes to Ice Melee, including increasing the distance on Frost and giving damage to Frozen Aura, Ice Melee/Ice Armor would be fine for Brutes.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Just telling you the truth. It hurts, I hear.
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Ice Melee's poor damage was the killer for having it on Brutes. It had nothing to do with Fury generation.
I've said this countless times since I6, and the myth that Ice Melee/Ice Armor interfered with Fury generation still persists.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Yes, this please
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Originally Posted by Brimmy
Spines for Brutes... PLEASE! :P
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Im only just getting in stalkers so happily admit my info is flawed, and Ive updated my original list post |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
A power set-up/order I'd feel optimal for Stalkers would be:
1. Scorch 2. Fire Sword 3. Cremate 4. Build Up 5. Assassin's Blaze 6. Placate 7. Fire Sword Circle 8. Breath of Fire 9. Greater Fire Sword |
And I think you possible Firey Melee set looks good
Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Actually, I believe that Brutes have an Agro aura built into Evasion.|
Originally Posted by Tired Angel
Tanker
Super Reflexes no experience of the set however Brutes get it, however no agro aura |
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Originally Posted by Tired Angel
Stalker
Shield Defence wasnt given to Stalkers originally due to ally centric nature of set (Grant Cover, Phalanx Fighting), however Stalkers get critical bonus out of hide due to nearby teammates so dont feel this should be an issue. Grant Cover, Phalanx Fighting, AAO all suppress while hidden? Replace True Grit for hidden? |
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Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
Tankers: Either a buffed EA or nothing for a primary (don't transfer EA as is) and Broad sword for a secondary. Yes I want Parry. No I don't think it'll be MORE broken for tanks than it is for anything else.
Brutes: I'm really not a big fan of ice, but it's the logical choice here. Change as needed, and port in Broad Sword, Katana and Martial Arts while you're at it.
Scrappers: Energy is the way to go here. Rework some of the heavy hitters.
Stalkers: Ice Melee/Aura. War Mace for the blackjack slinging crowd.
For all melee add a Psi epic. Subdue, Dom, one of the Aoes. Lots of other options to choose from here as well...
Masterminds: Rad and maybe Cold Domination. Sonic? sure why the hell not.
Controllers: Tough one here. I really want /dark and /traps, but... well lets just say a modified dark and traps as needed.
Dominators: just fix grav
Defenders: Fire Blast
Blasters: hrmph, I think a MA assault set with some low level defence and a significantly nerfed parry/sticky hands type power would be cool... but only if you could use it without weapon redraw on pistols...
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Thanks for the info - Ive updated my list |
Originally Posted by Computer
Actually, I believe that Brutes have an Agro aura built into Evasion.
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Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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My want list for proliferation is still this:
1) Dark Miasma for Controllers
2) Controllers: Dark Miasma
3) Controllers getting Dark Miasma
4) Ice Melee/Ice Armor for Scrappers (and Brutes, because the new version of fury means JayboH is wrong)
5) Dark Miasma going to Controllers
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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For me:
Ice Melee for Stalker/Brute (but I prefer Stalker)
Poison debuff set for Corruptor
Illusion Control for Dominator
Cold Domination for MM
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
For an AT that can't out-damage most ATs, I think Stalker should get Ice Melee just so Stalker can offer more than just damage.
And don't you take out Ice Patch!
Ice Sword (4s recharge)
Frost (11s recharge)
Ice Slash (8s recharge)
Assassin
Build Up
Placate
Ice Patch
Frozen Touch (16s recharge)
Ice Sword Circle (20s recharge, larger radius like Dominator's)
I guess Frozen Aura is fine too but I kind of want to keep the theme "ice sword" as that fits an Assassin better than trying to stomp the ground with frozen aura.
Stalker doesn't need Frozen Fist, low recharge attacks. Stalker needs heavy hitters. If Ice Patch is proven to be too aggro-ly, then I have an idea.
Sub-Zero Decoy. Stalker summons a frozen copy of himself on the battlefield which generates aggro (10' radius taunt) for the team. The ice decoy dies as it reaches zero health. The decoy has chilling embrace around it to slow things and it lasts 30s.
PS: Just watch Mortal Kombat Sub Zero. That's an Ice Melee Assassin for ya!
PS2: Oh, I forgot that Ice Armor should be ported to Stalker as well. It's a mix of Defense/+HP/Resistance set which should fit very well on Stalker. Just get rid of pbaoe aura and it's done. Chilling Embrace can stay because it's not like Ice Armor is the only set with toggle (ie: Dark Armor).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
General sets I would love to see ported or rolled out.
Blasters: Dark Blast (with an Aim)/Dark Manipulation(with a Build-Up)
Controllers: Dark Control/Dark Miasma
Defenders: Thermal Radiation/Fire Blast
Scrappers: Energy Melee/Energy Aura
Tankers: Martial Arts/Super Reflexes
Brutes: Broadsword or Katana/Ninjitsu (it and Ice Armor are the only two armors Brutes do not have unless I missed something, and Melee and Armor should port together)
Corruptors: Psychic Blast/Empathy
Dominators: Dark Control/Dark Assault (I would probably roll one of these the day they went live, or a Dark/Dark Blaster)
Masterminds: Sonic Resonance (although Kinetics or Radiation Emission would be nuts)
Stalkers: Fire Melee/Fiery Aura (which would probably work out the same way Dark Armor did during its port)
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
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Personally, I'd rather they just add easy replacements that mesh with the AT's nature rather than fiddling with easily breakable changes (seriously, I can see so many ways that aura not notifying mobs can bug up).|
Originally Posted by Computer
I wonder how likely it would be that stalkers got their AAO set to 'do not agro' rather than Suppressed? You could lose the -damage as well just as long as you could get the damage bonus of AAO in the Hide critical. (Or at least that is what I am drooling over!
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Phalanx Fighting >> Hide
Grant Cover >> Block! (a Mind Link type PBAoE buff that, for a very short period (like 10 sec) gives a major def buff)
Against All Odds >> Strike! (a passive +ToHit that also gives you a burst damage buff (a +critical, +dmg or extra damage on attacks) for the times you use Block!)
It won't give a Stalker the high end of DPS other /SD characters get, but Stalkers never were about being the best DPS but leveraging burst damage at will.
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I'd, personally, like to keep Frozen Aura for the control. On teams, it might not be much but solo it'd be pretty devastating and paired with /nin, you could sleep an entire spawn + bosses. Take your set-up, swap Frost and Ice Slash, remove Ice Patch for AS and keep in Ice Sword Circle as the tier 8? That'd probably be too good...but then that's how I'd want it for Brutes too.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
For an AT that can't out-damage most ATs, I think Stalker should get Ice Melee just so Stalker can offer more than just damage.
And don't you take out Ice Patch! Ice Sword (4s recharge) Frost (11s recharge) Ice Slash (8s recharge) Assassin Build Up Placate Ice Patch Frozen Touch (16s recharge) Ice Sword Circle (20s recharge, larger radius like Dominator's) I guess Frozen Aura is fine too but I kind of want to keep the theme "ice sword" as that fits an Assassin better than trying to stomp the ground with frozen aura. |
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| Sub-Zero Decoy |
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. Stalker summons a frozen copy of himself on the battlefield which generates aggro (10' radius taunt) for the team. The ice decoy dies as it reaches zero health. The decoy has chilling embrace around it to slow things and it lasts 30s. PS: Just watch Mortal Kombat Sub Zero. That's an Ice Melee Assassin for ya! PS2: Oh, I forgot that Ice Armor should be ported to Stalker as well. It's a mix of Defense/+HP/Resistance set which should fit very well on Stalker. Just get rid of pbaoe aura and it's done. Chilling Embrace can stay because it's not like Ice Armor is the only set with toggle (ie: Dark Armor). |
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MM pet's don't benefit from +recharge so a fair amount of kin is worthless there
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Originally Posted by Tired Angel
Mastermind
Cold Domination - see no reason why it hasnt been, possibly overpowered? Kinetics possibly overpowered? Empathy as per Empathy for Corruptors Radiation Emission possibly overpowered? Sonic Resonance - see no reason why it hasnt been |
We can has regen brutes plx? 
Also, has anyone discussed a spine/thorn armor set at any length?
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Preeeetty sure they're more worried about them being able to use Fulcrum Shift at will (but I could be wrong).
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
MM pet's don't benefit from +recharge so a fair amount of kin is worthless there
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Oh god please no. Please switch breath of fire for incinerate.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Patently not true. Electric, Dual Blades, Spines, even Katana/BS have more than one AoE.
The 'rule', so to speak, isn't that Stalkers get only one AoE, it was that Stalkers automatically lose a PBAoE for AS. But even that rule has exceptions since Kinetic Melee kept the PBAoE and lost the cone instead. So whatever set a Stalker gets, it goes: -Trade Confront for Placate. -Trade self buff for Build up. -Remove bizarre toggle damage powers (only for Spines:Quills so far) for AS. --If the set doesn't have the above, swap utility (such as a mezzing AoE, Dark Melee: Dark Consumption, Elec Melee:Thunder Clap, Kinetic Melee:Repulsing Torrent) for AS. ---If none of the above, remove PBAoE for AS (exception to this rule is Katana/BS which didn't lose it's utility (Divine Avalanche/Parry) and skipped right to cutting the PBAoE). If they choose to proliferate Scrap/Brute Fire Melee, the power most likely to be dropped is Fire Sword Circle which I'd rather Stalkers get since it far more bursty than the DoT of Fire Breath. The likelyhood of Fire Breath being dropped would hinge on making another exception but even then, I'd rather keep Fire Breath too. If anything, I'd rather they make an exception to an exception and drop the high DoT power (Incinerate) for AS because DoTs really don't mesh well with placate. Just getting the optimal powers for Stalker would probably be the best option here rather than just copying one of the existing ATs. A power set-up/order I'd feel optimal for Stalkers would be: 1. Scorch 2. Fire Sword 3. Cremate 4. Build Up 5. Assassin's Blaze 6. Placate 7. Fire Sword Circle 8. Breath of Fire 9. Greater Fire Sword |
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You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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...but that's what I said. I was directly talking about the CoV beta and the results of testing. Complete truth. I have yet to address the slight changes in fury generation that we have had since then.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Except that it wasn't the truth. Ice Melee/Ice Armor didn't have any more trouble generating fury than some of the other sets that Brutes did get. However, in I6, Ice Melee was HORRIBLE
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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I could easily see Psychic Blast, and agree, but Empathy will never go to corruptors, unfortunately. Pain Domination is the corruptor version of empathy, and was the entire reason that set was created in the first place.
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Originally Posted by ArchGemini
Corruptors: Psychic Blast/Empathy
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Er, is that right? If a corruptor speed boosts an mm pet, they only run faster and have unlimited endurance? It's been awhile since I've played with that kind of combo.
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
MM pet's don't benefit from +recharge so a fair amount of kin is worthless there
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
MM pet's don't benefit from +recharge so a fair amount of kin is worthless there
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Preeeetty sure they're more worried about them being able to use Fulcrum Shift at will (but I could be wrong).
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Er, is that right? If a corruptor speed boosts an mm pet, they only run faster and have unlimited endurance? It's been awhile since I've played with that kind of combo.
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So that leaves Transfusion which is a strong heal, Siphon Power to boost damage along with Fulcrum Shift (as Chad says) and again more endurance recovery with Transference. Masterminds might actually get some use out of Repel for self protection and Inertial Reduction could be a pseudo travel power.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
I could easily see Psychic Blast, and agree, but Empathy will never go to corruptors, unfortunately. Pain Domination is the corruptor version of empathy, and was the entire reason that set was created in the first place.
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Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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That was my opinion when I posted it. They are just different enough. That and Corruptors are closing in on having most of the Buff/Debuff sets. How many are left (not that an AT has to get a primary and a secondary in proliferation)?
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Originally Posted by Tired Angel
I thought the same Jay when I was thinking about all the proliferation options but then with Going Rogue you can get Defenders that started in Praetoria and were a self centred Loyalist and then went Redside. So you can get evil Empaths now and the same for good Pain Doms. I also personally think that the sets are different enough that they wouldn't be repeating each other if proliferated. Just my personal opinion though
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11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
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The changes aren't "slight". Having done brutes both before and after, on teams with doms/trollers, the difference is night and day. With the new fury, I can go in after the AoE control and still get a good chunk of fury. And that's with no one attacking me. Not to mention the changed fury decay means that you don't drop much at all between groups. Ice/Ice would have zero problems maintaining 75% fury, like any other set (the new setup makes it hard to maintain any fury above about that, but you can still spike there).
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Originally Posted by JayboH
...but that's what I said. I was directly talking about the CoV beta and the results of testing. Complete truth. I have yet to address the slight changes in fury generation that we have had since then.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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The reason Corruptors are unlikely to get Empathy now, even with Villain Defenders, is that -every- Corruptor support sets gets debuffs. It goes with the theme of the Archetype. Empathy doesn't have any so it doesn't exactly "fit." Same reason it doesn't get Forcefield. All buffs/Control/Soft Control. No Debuffs.
(I for one personally rallied for villain empathy way back when, debuffs or not. Likewise, as I've mentioned many times in proliferation threads before, Forcefield is offensive enough in nature that it would still work for them in my opinion.)
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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It's correct. |
Originally Posted by JayboH
Er, is that right? If a corruptor speed boosts an mm pet, they only run faster and have unlimited endurance? It's been awhile since I've played with that kind of combo.
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The problem arose with pet AI. If you buffed a pet's recharge it screwed up the way it decides what power to use.
A MM pet will ALWAYS use it's best power if it's recharged, and if it's almost recharged it will wait until it is and not use anything else. Normally, the recharge is long enough that it will use other powers while it's waiting for it's best one to recharge. But, if you buff it's recharge enough, suddenly it's best power is considered "almost recharged" immediately after it uses it, so it will wait until it is and use it again.
End result: You have a bunch of Thugs MMs walking around with their Bruisers spamming nothing other than Hand Clap (which counts as it's "best" power because it is conferred by the second pet buff)
I could be mistaken on exactly how it worked, but the Bruisers spamming nothing but Hand Clap was observable and repeatable. Other pets did the same thing, but it wasn't as bad because at least their "best power" did damage.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
The 'rule', so to speak, isn't that Stalkers get only one AoE, it was that Stalkers automatically lose a PBAoE for AS. But even that rule has exceptions since Kinetic Melee kept the PBAoE and lost the cone instead.
So whatever set a Stalker gets, it goes:
-Trade Confront for Placate.
-Trade self buff for Build up.
-Remove bizarre toggle damage powers (only for Spines:Quills so far) for AS.
--If the set doesn't have the above, swap utility (such as a mezzing AoE, Dark Melee: Dark Consumption, Elec Melee:Thunder Clap, Kinetic Melee:Repulsing Torrent) for AS.
---If none of the above, remove PBAoE for AS (exception to this rule is Katana/BS which didn't lose it's utility (Divine Avalanche/Parry) and skipped right to cutting the PBAoE).
If they choose to proliferate Scrap/Brute Fire Melee, the power most likely to be dropped is Fire Sword Circle which I'd rather Stalkers get since it far more bursty than the DoT of Fire Breath. The likelyhood of Fire Breath being dropped would hinge on making another exception but even then, I'd rather keep Fire Breath too. If anything, I'd rather they make an exception to an exception and drop the high DoT power (Incinerate) for AS because DoTs really don't mesh well with placate. Just getting the optimal powers for Stalker would probably be the best option here rather than just copying one of the existing ATs. A power set-up/order I'd feel optimal for Stalkers would be:
1. Scorch
2. Fire Sword
3. Cremate
4. Build Up
5. Assassin's Blaze
6. Placate
7. Fire Sword Circle
8. Breath of Fire
9. Greater Fire Sword