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Originally Posted by New Dawn
This thread is about buffers rejoicing, if all was balanced before, it can't be that way now as some buffers have something to sing about whilst others have nothing new. Pain and Poison may not be part of the defender sets hence why a small mention.
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I don't understand your assumption that if some sets get buffed, they all have to be, or else it is unfair. I'm sorry. That's all I can offer. The developers are not going to hold 5 sets back just because they have nothing specific to give the others right now.
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Yeah, those poor Colds and Kins, they had it rough. I know no one ever cared for extra resistance either or large resistance debuffs, thus I can see why Sonic and Thermal were suffering, especially late game.|
Originally Posted by teflonshugenja
And I'm pretty sure the entire reason for this change is that all was not balanced before.
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But to buff Force Fields too! That is going too far.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Just a week ago I rolled a Fire/Dark corrupter for the simple reason that I didn't want /Cold or /Kin for this EXACT reason. Looks like I'm rolling one out after this goes live.
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You guys are making jest but it's Rare to find people who normally play Kins for a long period of time. Cold, Thermal, Kin, FF, Sonic are rare finds especially on a low populated server. Also out of that bunch most don't even buff other casters like they should. I think they are not common as one would think...well compared to Emp defenders and Trollers.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Yeah, those poor Colds and Kins, they had it rough. I know no one ever cared for extra resistance either or large resistance debuffs, thus I can see why Sonic and Thermal were suffering, especially late game.
But to buff Force Fields too! That is going too far. |
Double plus on this: I know I gave up on playing any buffing alts at all due to repetitive casting, and initially my choice on characers was very defender oriented. Being able to get rid of the speed component of speed boost is also a major plus. Anyone who used positional powers can appreciate that. I may even respec into it on my (very few) kin alts.
I've voted with my character choices previously, and that vote was to avoid buffers. This very much addresses some of the issues I had with it.
Rend this space....
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Just because you have that much recharge doesn't mean everyone else does. And if the devs made Fortitude a TAoE like the buffs that are getting that, then it would be nerfed, because Fortitude is balanced around the idea that it won't normally be on the entire team (massive recharge being a noticeable edge case).
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Originally Posted by rsclark
No, my emp has to apply one buff every 16 seconds. If you want to compare QoL, I would gladly trade that for running down the list once every 2 minutes, since on an 8 man team, I'm keeping it up on the same 7 people as the other buffers are, but with much more hassle and redraw.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I'm with New Dawn on this one, I think that Emp should have gotten a boost as well, and yes, I would take a reduction in Fort to make it a group buff, I still think it would be more useful to teams getting everyone at once even if it's a "lesser" buff. Yes, Emp could use a boost, while it's value to a small team is undeniable, on larger groups, it's value drops, and later on Debuffs > Buffs so...|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
This thread is about buffers rejoicing, if all was balanced before, it can't be that way now as some buffers have something to sing about whilst others have nothing new. Pain and Poison may not be part of the defender sets hence why a small mention.
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But with all that said, i'd rather have the other sets buffed (as they are doing) then nothing at all, it's QoL after all.
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So, just to jump in again ...|
Originally Posted by Robert_B
I'm with New Dawn on this one, I think that Emp should have gotten a boost as well, and yes, I would take a reduction in Fort to make it a group buff, I still think it would be more useful to teams getting everyone at once even if it's a "lesser" buff. Yes, Emp could use a boost, while it's value to a small team is undeniable, on larger groups, it's value drops, and later on Debuffs > Buffs so...
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Yes, emps are BEASTS on small teams. And, on the flip side, I'd argue that bubblers are comparatively weak on small teams, but shine brightest on large teams. And, FWIW, there is a type of balance in that -- the devs are content to have certain sets do better than others in some situations. When the devs re-balance things, they tend to do it in situations where some sets are (nearly) always better than others and some sets are (nearly) always worse than others. To me, that does NOT describe the situation with defender primaries.
Your statement that "Debuffs > Buffs" is wrong, mostly because it's FAR too general. Adds? AVs? Large spawns? Small spawns? KB-heavy teams? Solo? Small teams? Large teams? Raids?
(De)buff sets have /never/ had an exhaustive balance pass, while almost every other class of powers has had a balance pass. This strongly suggests that the devs are largely happy with how (de)buff sets compare against each other. No one has ever publicly done an analysis of intra-set (de)buff performance (we've had some e-peen waggers say they have, but they've never, as it were, shown us the money), so it's most likely the devs haven't either; instead, they seem to be relying on data-mining to gauge performance, numbers that the players have no access to.
FWIW, the simplest buff to Empathy is to set the RAs to 30' (currently, IIRC, 25') and call it a day.
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Hmm, is this a challenge? I think I will do this.
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Originally Posted by Not_BC
No one has ever publicly done an analysis of intra-set (de)buff performance (we've had some e-peen waggers say they have, but they've never, as it were, shown us the money)
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I've never heard of a change to an aoe radius, I'm not sure it can be done and really don't think empaths will notice and say wow it helps greatly neither. Debuffs vs Buffs varies. When fighting enemies at +4 buffs do help a tonne because generally debuffs are extremely resisted. Upto +3 debuffs are satisfactory though. Now that you've brought it up I expect you will know a decent analysis of defender sets when you see one so I think you would be ideal for the job. I myself would of thought it best if I done such a thing after fiftying all the sets.|
Originally Posted by Not_BC
No one has ever publicly done an analysis of intra-set (de)buff performance (we've had some e-peen waggers say they have, but they've never, as it were, shown us the money), so it's most likely the devs haven't either; instead, they seem to be relying on data-mining to gauge performance, numbers that the players have no access to.
FWIW, the simplest buff to Empathy is to set the RAs to 30' (currently, IIRC, 25') and call it a day. |
Empaths dont really have a lot to benefit by from their primary when soloing and no in smaller teams they don't outshine everyother set. If other sets can help 8 man teams better then they should sure as hell be able to help 7, 6, 5 etc well too. The empath can buff a single player to high heaven for sure but thats balanced by the lack of the ability to shield everyone. Not asking for an AoE fortitude that hits the whole team here. A little of the cast time would be sweet though.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I would consider making Recovery Aura have a 120 second recharge time, no self-stacking. That would put most Empaths in the "supercharged self endurance" category all of the time a la Cold Domination and give them some slack in the trials so they don't have to constantly try to gather everyone.
I can see Absorb Pain as a 15ft AoE targetted cast for sure, assuming it keeps its current no-self-heal penalty.
I think Regen Aura would be extremely overpowered with its recharge changed.
Sonic Resonance and Force Field need much more extreme buffs than these. AoE shields do not begin to fix their late game issues (tho admitedly Sonic is a little better in trials than it is in the main game, and Force Field the reverse).
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Took me five hours. There went my day.
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Originally Posted by Garent
Hmm, is this a challenge? I think I will do this.
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Fixed. |
Originally Posted by Garent
Took me five hours. There went my day.
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Should have linked to it.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
I find it interesting that some folks are of the belief that this change was meant to correct an "imbalance". Cannot find it at the moment, but if I remember correctly, this was "billed" as a QOL improvement for "buffing" sets.
What New Dawn, myself (and others) are trying to say is that Empathy (Poison and Pain) are not being offered some form of QOL as well. Do these sets have similar powers that are easily adjusted? Nope... But having played a considerable amount of time with an Empath (or two, or three), the set should be given some form of reduction in "time spent buffing" WITHOUT making it overpowered. How can this be done ? Good Question.
But it should be done. Thats all I am saying.
Found it :
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Quality of Life Upgrades Group Area Buffs: To make buffing easier for Teams and Leagues, these buff powers now affect all the eligible characters within a 30-foot-radius around the targeted character. (Previously, you had to target and buff each individual character to use these powers.) Cold Domination (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Ice Shield and Glacial Shield Force Field (Defenders, Controllers, Masterminds): Deflection Shield and Insulation Shield Kinetics (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Increase Density and Speed Boost Sonic Resonance (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Sonic Barrier and Sonic Haven Thermal Radiation (Controllers, Corruptors, Masterminds): Fire Shield and Plasma Shield |
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Originally Posted by WarMage
I find it interesting that some folks are of the belief that this change was meant to correct an "imbalance". Cannot find it at the moment, but if I remember correctly, this was "billed" as a QOL improvement for "buffing" sets.
What New Dawn, myself (and others) are trying to say is that Empathy (Poison and Pain) are not being offered some form of QOL as well. Do these sets have similar powers that are easily adjusted? Nope... But having played a considerable amount of time with an Empath (or two, or three), the set should be given some form of reduction in "time spent buffing" WITHOUT making it overpowered. How can this be done ? Good Question. But it should be done. Thats all I am saying. Found it : |
The only thing with this, and the reason people are saying what they are about it, is that Empathy's and Pain's "rolling buff" power is identical in form and function to Cold and Thermal's rolling buff (Frostwork and Forge). I personally find upkeeping all 4 to be annoying. If Fortitude is a case where the buffing is too much, then Thermal needs a convenience buff, again, because that power works the same way.
Today's the day!
And there was much rejoicing. "Yay."
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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Have they ever released numbers on the percentage of defenders for each primary powerset? That would be the only way of really verifying this, because my play experience doesn't even come close to your experience with those classes being rare.|
Originally Posted by Negate
You guys are making jest but it's Rare to find people who normally play Kins for a long period of time. Cold, Thermal, Kin, FF, Sonic are rare finds especially on a low populated server. Also out of that bunch most don't even buff other casters like they should. I think they are not common as one would think...well compared to Emp defenders and Trollers.
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I have 4x 50s with Kinetics. I regularly find other Kin characters on PUGs. I also have a /Thermal MM and a FF/ defender. Bubbles or shields can completely make a team all by themselves, and the whole team becomes nigh invulnerable if you have more than one. I really haven't seen the extreme rarity in those powersets that you have.
Level 50 Heroes: Atomic Twinkie, Muddy McCrush, Master Jolt, Sureshot Jones, Wushubot, Sirenbot, Phantom Warp
Level 50 Villians: Soul Breaker
Urban Renewal SG / Urban Decay VG (Virtue Server)
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I don't really understand this post. It basically amounts to "We want our powers to be made better too! I don't know how, but we want stuff too!"|
Originally Posted by WarMage
I find it interesting that some folks are of the belief that this change was meant to correct an "imbalance". Cannot find it at the moment, but if I remember correctly, this was "billed" as a QOL improvement for "buffing" sets.
What New Dawn, myself (and others) are trying to say is that Empathy (Poison and Pain) are not being offered some form of QOL as well. Do these sets have similar powers that are easily adjusted? Nope... But having played a considerable amount of time with an Empath (or two, or three), the set should be given some form of reduction in "time spent buffing" WITHOUT making it overpowered. How can this be done ? Good Question. But it should be done. Thats all I am saying. |
For Empathy, how about regen components added to the healing powers in exchange for some of the power. Target gets healed and increased regen for X seconds. Or maybe add a target component to the power, so it heals for X plus an additional X for each enemy in the area around the target it hits. Kind of like a healing Fulcrum Shift.
There are always ways to make a powerset better. But I guarantee that shield powersets spend much more time buffing people than empathy.
Level 50 Heroes: Atomic Twinkie, Muddy McCrush, Master Jolt, Sureshot Jones, Wushubot, Sirenbot, Phantom Warp
Level 50 Villians: Soul Breaker
Urban Renewal SG / Urban Decay VG (Virtue Server)
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I thought it was more of a "I want my long recharge power to be turned into something like those 1 second recharging powers, so i can AOE buff everyone for way less than I am now"|
Originally Posted by NuclearTwinkie
I don't really understand this post. It basically amounts to "We want our powers to be made better too! I don't know how, but we want stuff too!"
For Empathy, how about regen components added to the healing powers in exchange for some of the power. Target gets healed and increased regen for X seconds. Or maybe add a target component to the power, so it heals for X plus an additional X for each enemy in the area around the target it hits. Kind of like a healing Fulcrum Shift. There are always ways to make a powerset better. But I guarantee that shield powersets spend much more time buffing people than empathy. |
Empathy has ST buffs yes, but they're no where on the timer of other sets where it's a simple castx7 (or even more for those who want to buff their pets or stupidly enough a whole league with a ST buff power) but they're not the same outside of Clear Mind which is giving effects that dont even get the AOE benefit for KINs ID.
Empathy isn't these shield sets. It plays differently.
This QoL buff doesn't mean other sets need a buff. It means now people can SB 1 person and get the whole team, because I promise you, when I now make a KIN if they can't stay huddled into an AOE big enough for the SB buff, they get to lose it untill it wears off
Shields will be the same way.
Those Empathy buffs? They never got the whole team (okay maybe some HIGH recharge builds...but generally no).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Differently and worse are not mutually exclusive terms.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Empathy isn't these shield sets. It plays differently.
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Emp plays differently, and those differences result in reduced performance the larger the group becomes. And that's a huge problem when you look at the direction endgame content is taking.
Emp +1 = oh look, I turned that guy into an unkillable god
Emp +4 = 3 tough group members and one god
Emp +23 = why did we invite this guy
People are quick to point out that Emp excels by buffing instead of healing, but there are only 3 powers that scale well to larger teams. 2 of those are up half the time. 2 are also basically just healing/regen. The only large group friendly, non-healing power they have is recovery aura. Of the Emp powers (as opposed to whatever other powerset you might have), the most productive thing an emp can do in a trial is rock the healing aura, as that actually scales to remain somewhat useful.
Debuffs remain equally useful no matter how many people you have beating on the target or being attacked by the target. And this change makes buffing (for those powersets affected) for a 24 man team the same as a 2 man team.
If you want to compare, it is basically the same shortcoming as poison vs rad in terms of debuffs, and in that comparison, no one is going to side with poison.
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| This QoL buff doesn't mean other sets need a buff. |
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I think you understand this post perfectly. As a player that has spent a great deal of my time playing ; Empathy, Kinetics, Dark, Rad and FF, When I read this "QOL" improvement for "buffers", the Kinetics/FF in me said WoW ! Cool !, but the Empath in me said ; "Hey ! I am a buffer too!"|
Originally Posted by NuclearTwinkie
I don't really understand this post. It basically amounts to "We want our powers to be made better too! I don't know how, but we want stuff too!"
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Originally Posted by NuclearTwinkie
For Empathy, how about regen components added to the healing powers in exchange for some of the power. Target gets healed and increased regen for X seconds. Or maybe add a target component to the power, so it heals for X plus an additional X for each enemy in the area around the target it hits. Kind of like a healing Fulcrum Shift.
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Originally Posted by NuclearTwinkie
There are always ways to make a powerset better. But I guarantee that shield powersets spend much more time buffing people than empathy.
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Mastermind popped gang war. I shielded them all with a couple clicks.
I was all like
Ugh, I'm in love.
Son of a *****. I joined a team on my unmothballed Kin and was promptly told "no SB please" by four members. I politely mentioned that they can now turn off the runspeed bonus with a quick trip to Pocket D. Three of them said in team chat some variant of they would eventually but right now please don't speedboost them. The fourth sent me a tell explaining that the onus was still on me to accommodate his needs, because he shouldn't have to change a setting in the game to avoid powers from other people.
Being as it's AoE now, I cheerfully targeted only the three that wanted SB and let the splash buffs land where they may. Now that there is a means to deal with the "problem" of speedboost, I am quite content in referring to these people as the whining **** that they are. I had a suspicion that the ability to negate the supposed downside of SB wouldn't eliminate the crybabies, and lo! I was right.
My Cold fender is rejoicing in ways illegal. On the MM end of things, my thermal MMs have become a joy to play where once they were tedium made flesh. Truly one of the greatest QoL improvements to the game since launch.
And I'm pretty sure the entire reason for this change is that all was not balanced before.