City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Buffers rejoice!

Amy_Amp

By Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2011-05-25 15:12 in Defenders

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
No it isnt and its not down to elitism. When it comes to defenders I think they need to be experienced. Too many people give advice or have an opinion on sets they don't even play.
Not elitism?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
I'm all for Kins getting an AoE ID, from a fun play perspective there is so much to do in so little time but if they can do that with Kins ID then that puts my Kinetic out infront of my Empath when playing with players that know what they're doing. I realize with Kinetics I can barely get to blast myself from stacking buffs but the contribution to the team is greater and the ability to solo is also greater. It's not like many people, don't already believe that Kins are superior anyway.
It's a little unclear from this, but you do realize that the only portion of ID that is being made AoE is the resistance portion, not the mez protection portion. I think the players that thought Kin was better before will still think kin is better after the change. And I think the folks that thought empathy was better before aren't going to have their minds changed by what is essentially a resistance buff to kin (I don't really see folks clamoring for thermal or sonic buffs).

As I understand it the point you're trying to make is, "Other sets now have to spend less of their time buffing, and so should Empathy" I'm just not sure it's a valid point. I believe the purpose of the change was to eliminate some of the tedium of trying to buff 8 or 48 people that can make these sets especially not fun for folks to play. A side effect of this is that players have more time to attack, but that was not the desired goal. Empathy does not suffer from the problem of tedious buffs that need to be applied to everyone (with the exception of CM, but all buffing sets will keep that problem) and therefore does not warrant the change.

Will this additional freed up time create an imbalance...I suspect not. The buffs that are getting modified are generally applied proactively and therefore would have limited impact on the dps output of the characters.

Would it be hugely problematic to give empathy a reduced cast time on fortitude and AB...probably not...but that begs the question, "why?" And such a change would be unrelated to the current set of changes, and would require a reexamination of all powersets.

Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here

 

Posted

Reading thru this whole thread, I can see that ONLY New Dawn sees the same thing that I felt after reading the QOL changes. The hard-headed anti-empathy Bias in this game amazes me. These changes are great news for the Defenders playing the affected sets and I applaud the devs for listening to the fan base and making this change. But at the same time, I see ONCE AGAIN that Empathy gets left behind. Nothing new on the horizon after 7 years of time. Forever sidekicks, wasting all their group time pro-actively keeping your "ungrateful" selves alive. Does it surprise me that folks are saying YET AGAIN that Empaths are fine as is. Not one bit !!

To you NEW DAWN, I salute you. Thanks for trying.

-Biospark- (Former Empath)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarMage View Post
Reading thru this whole thread, I can see that ONLY New Dawn sees the same thing that I felt after reading the QOL changes. The hard-headed anti-empathy Bias in this game amazes me. These changes are great news for the Defenders playing the affected sets and I applaud the devs for listening to the fan base and making this change. But at the same time, I see ONCE AGAIN that Empathy gets left behind. Nothing new on the horizon after 7 years of time. Forever sidekicks, wasting all their group time pro-actively keeping your "ungrateful" selves alive. Does it surprise me that folks are saying YET AGAIN that Empaths are fine as is. Not one bit !!

To you NEW DAWN, I salute you. Thanks for trying.

-Biospark- (Former Empath)
The new changes are quite welcome, and I feel necessary, except for the changes to Kinetics.

I started out playing an Empathy/Psi defender as my main, then an Illusion/Empathy controller (my first level 50). So I know what it's like playing empaths.

I've also played all the basic red and blue ATs to 50, as well as nearly every power set for all those ATs.

Empathy isn't getting the same treatment as Force Field or Sonic because nothing in Empathy is comparable to the powers in Force Field or Sonic. Fortitude cannot be buffed into an AoE because it's far too good to be buffed: defense to everything, plus a damage buff and a to-hit buff.

Empathy's other powers (Clear Mind, Regen Aura, Recovery Aura, AB, and the heals), are already AoEs or are not the simple defense or resistance buffs that are now a dime a dozen due to the Fighting pool being readily available to anyone due to inherent Fitness, and IO bonuses.

Having played all the ATs, I found the buffing ATs to be the least desirable, because of the tedium. Empathy is not as bad as the others, because all you really need to worry about is keeping Fortitude on as many people as possible. Clear Mind and the the heals are reactive, AB has such long recharge and is only really needed when you're fighting Big Bads. This change, to my mind, is only evening out the disparity between sets like Sonic or FF and Empathy.

I'm the first to admit that Kinetics is already overpowered. I play Kins, so I'm happy for the change to Speed Boost and ID. But I think it's wrong. I can see why the devs want to be "consistent" by making SB be a targeted AoE. But it's not a survivability buff to a subset of defense or damage resistance as the buffs to Thermal, FF, Sonics and Ice are. SB increases your damage output (by increasing attack frequency), and that makes it more like Fortitude. By omitting the change to SB the devs could have also saved themselves from having to make the change to optional reject speed increases.

I can only think of one buff that Empathy should get, and that's to do something about Absorb Pain. That power is worse than useless to me. I would like to see it turn into a PBAoE heal, with the side effect of being a PBAoE -regen debuff or AoE damage. Empathy needs some kind of debuff in its stable, and Absorb Pain is the obvious vehicle.

 

Posted

This:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
Empathy isn't getting the same treatment as Force Field or Sonic because nothing in Empathy is comparable to the powers in Force Field or Sonic.
And this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas View Post
If you think Empathy or Pain need a buff in general, this isn't really the thread to address that.
Express exactly how I feel. There's nothin in Empathy that this change should be applied to, and any other changes to the set would be unrelated, so this is not the place.



(Just to note, I have an Emp/Eng Defender, an Earth/Emp Controller and a Rad/Pain Corruptor.)

@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

 

Posted

So happy about these changes.

It won't make my kin defender significantly stronger — on large teams, where this change makes a difference, the vast majority of her contribution comes from speed boost and fulcrum shift — but hugely more fun to play. Trying to keep speed boost up on a team of size 5 and up with wandering blasters and solo-happy scrappers was like trying to herd cats, but I am acutely aware that SB is a significant part of my contribution to the team's effectiveness.

I imagine that once players get used to the new buff mechanics, it will make the kineticist's life even easier: other players will want to be within thirty feet, which in turn will make it more likely they'll be in range of heals and FS.

Also, this change is making me consider respecing ID back in because until now, it completely wasn't worth the buffbotting required to make the resistance bonus useful.

Just as an aside, I don't know where the notion of kinetics being overpowered comes from. It's certainly a good set, but on-par at least with dark and rad. It has come into its own with the greater defensive power and overall survivability of large teams these days — it has next to no control and is relatively weak with defence (especially pre-FS), and soloing with kinetics is more 'exciting' than safe.

 

Posted

I can't be reading this right, can I? People actually think Empathy needs a buff?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zandock View Post
I can't be reading this right, can I? People actually think Empathy needs a buff?
I think it's more to do with the thread title being "Buffers rejoice!", and Empathy users(being buffers) have no reason to rejoice so we're being all bitter.

I've chosen to stay out of this argument myself, because I'm not sure we need a buff yet. I have to admit though, that I do get a little bit green(pun intended) with envy every time I see the thread title.

Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
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Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auroxis View Post
I have to admit though, that I do get a little bit green(pun intended) with envy every time I see the thread title.
heh. Green machine ftw.

@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
Is my pedigree good enough for my opinion to be valid to you?
No it isnt
Alright. So no matter what the content of my argument is, it's irrelevant to you because I don't have a 50 of exactly the right powerset. A friend of mine likes to call this the "you don't have to drink hemlock to know it'll kill you fallacy". One of many subsets of the Ad Hominem. If my position is incorrect, you have to prove that it's incorrect.

You have no real position though. The content of your posts is mostly complaints and demands for appeasement. The closest you've come to a suggestion for an actual change is a reduction in casting times on empathy. You previously said you wanted some kind of buff to pain, poison, and empathy; but in recent posts you've been focusing entirely on empathy. Your posts have shifted from a call for parity to a call for the buffing of a specific powerset.

 

Posted

Thank god. I was tired of joining groups where buffers don't buff. It's like why roll a buff archtype?

Pretty much carrying buffers to level 50

 

Posted

Ok Empathy users...what powers do you think deserve a full Team buff? Just Clear mind?

Hurrah! This means we will see more Therms, Colds, Sonics and Kins. I might actually Take ID now on my Kin and I might Actually play my kins! who have been shelved 3 years ago! WOOT!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negate View Post
Ok Empathy users...what powers do you think deserve a full Team buff? Just Clear mind?
In my opinion, just clear mind.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
In my opinion, just clear mind.
I'll pass on that. I'd rather have the ability to stack CM for Ghost Widow, I can already use Clarion for AoE mez protection.


I like the idea of shaving a second off of Fortitude's cast time.

Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
In my opinion, just clear mind.
I can respect that maybe in due time?


 

Posted

Clear Mind will NOT get the AoE buff modification. None of the mez protection buffs are.

**The Mez Protection of Increase Density is NOT changing to AoE, only the Smashing/Energy Resistance portion is.**

If a Kin wants to provide mez protection for the entire team they STILL need to buff each player separately.

Empathy has no powers this change can or will be applied to.

As per Black Scorpion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Scorpion View Post
Lastly, there is a subtlety to the Increase Density conversion to an AOE buff which the summary didn’t quite capture. The damage resistance component of the power is being made AOE-affecting, but the status effect protection component is going to still be single-target. The single target click powers which give status effect protection such as Clear Mind were not going to be made AOE wide (for balance purposes), but Increase Density having both facets makes it unique in this case. We are trying to split that difference with our approach.

@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oathbound View Post
Clear Mind will NOT get the AoE buff modification. None of the mez protection buffs are.

**The Mez Protection of Increase Density is NOT changing to AoE, only the Smashing/Energy Resistance portion is.**

If a Kin wants to provide mez protection for the entire team they STILL need to buff each player separately.

Empathy has no powers this change can or will be applied to.

As per Black Scorpion:
Good job Oathbound you just dropped a big ol' Rock in the pool...heck more like a bomb was dropped in a lake and...Well you get the picture. I don't know why I forgot that the mez protection doesn't apply to the AOE buff. This argument is now finished I say.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negate View Post
Good job Oathbound you just dropped a big ol' Rock in the pool...heck more like a bomb was dropped in a lake and...Well you get the picture. I don't know why I forgot that the mez protection doesn't apply to the AOE buff. This argument is now finished I say.
I don't think this matters to the folks who want empathy changes as this was already pointed out several times in the thread, including at least three times by me.

Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draggynn View Post
I don't think this matters to the folks who want empathy changes as this was already pointed out several times in the thread, including at least three times by me.
Yep and as I see it all I've asked for is a buff to Empathy, Pain and Poison of equal value - could be anything. Reactive sets could do with less cast time and is still my opinion. This buff removes cast times from the sets its bestowed to so I see it only fair however what the Devs do with their knowledge is down to them.

He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

The thing is, Empathy, Pain and Poison didn't (and don't) have to apply 2 click buffs to every team member every 2-4 minutes to fully contribute their buffing power.

At most, an argument could be made for maintaining CM on a whole team, but that's a little silly. It's silly because a) a good portion of the team will already have mez protection and b) the devs have already said they want mez protection to be largely reactive.

FF, Sonic, Thermal, Kinetics and Cold were just far more time-consuming to buff the whole team. That's why they get this change.

If you want to argue that Empathy is now sub-par and needs an improvement to its buffing power, well, good luck.

Edit: Poison and Pain are another matter. Poison has no ally buffs except for its Clear Mind-esque power and Pain is in the same position. Pain has an AoE buff which also affects the caster and one very powerful single-ally long recharging power. Totally different scenarios, IMO.

If you want to argue that Pain and Poison need a buff, I'm right with you. But not because of this change.

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Posted

These changes make my main (Grav/FF/Primal controller, yes, with Power Boost) extremely happy, and the various kins I've abandoned due to Altaholism seem far more tempting.

I also bet that after launch I'll still go down the list a few times with bubbles before I realize it. Mostly because of playing him so long that 1, /, *, 2, /, * (that's my bind setup, numbers are on the numpad) has nearly become muscle memory.

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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
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Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
Yep and as I see it all I've asked for is a buff to Empathy, Pain and Poison of equal value - could be anything. Reactive sets could do with less cast time and is still my opinion. This buff removes cast times from the sets its bestowed to so I see it only fair however what the Devs do with their knowledge is down to them.

The developers have not spoken to this directly, but I will explain why I was one of the people who argued for a change to the "shield" powers and Speed Boost for years. The issue was strategy, not cast time. I do not know whether the developers agree with this assessment, but since they changed the exact powers I and some others have been lobbying for (plus ID) I suspect it at least part of the logic.

Prior to the change, the combination of buff power and recharge time meant that using the buff was the only logical strategy. The powers were a combination of 3 things: 1) very desirable to have all of the time, 2) very available to be cast all of the time, and 3) relatively short in duration. This put some sets (especially Kinetics, Force Field, and Sonic) in a position where their best possible strategy in any situation was to hit the buff power prior to the previous cast wearing off, over and over and over and over and over.

The limiting factor wasn't cast time or endurance. It was your tolerance for hitting the button. This was partly because buffs did not usually happen during meaningful combat moments (at least if you were any good at playing a buffer). They usually happened in the "between" moments between fights, when you are running down hallways or cleaning up the last few enemies. The critical element is that it was and is completely possible to keep a buffed at all times. In fact it was strategically detrimental to do anything but that.

As I explained it in past posts, it was "balance by frustration." Especially in the case of Speed Boost. It was basically the hope that you wouldn't overuse Speed Boost because it was too annoying. Balancing powers by making them annoying to use almost always backfires, especially when the buff is as desireable as that one.

You may ask why they didn't just increase the duration of individual buffs. And the answer for that is that would encourage "door buffing." If any of these buffs lasted more than about 10 minutes, it would actually be better strategy to gather 8 damage dealers, have the Defender cast the power at the mission door, and then leave them behind.

I will say that this specific change to the buffs wasn't what I had in mind when I asked for change in the past. I'd always hoped to keep the individual shields, but giving teammates a method to "renew" them by staying close to the caster. I will also say that Kinetic's ID power is not one I thought would receive this treatment. Since the AoE version of the power only buffs Smashing and Energy resistance and nothing else, I'm not particularly concerned though. Some people are concerned about the buffers ability to hit whole raids at once, but PBAoE buffs have always done that, except they hit the caster too. I will admit I have some reservations about two or three buffers able to make a Rikti-raid nigh invincible but Destiny buffs more or less forced that issue already.

In any case, functionally, outside of trials this change means very little for any of these sets except two things: 1) they are less irritating to play and 2) pets are more likely to be buffed. In the trials, they are definitely more powerful than previously but that is partially because their "teammate coverage" has been restored. Again recall that PBAoE buffs have always had an unlimited target cap, as have debuffs in terms of the benefits provided to the group.

Do Empathy, Pain and Poison need a buff? Maybe but that's irrelevant to this change as I see it as those sets issues, if they exist, are different.

 

Posted

I'm not saying Empathy needs a buff or not, but as some have stated before me, it's a very different QoL thing that's simply not applicable to Empathy. Fortitude with the same mechanic would be very overpowered in my opinion. The same thing goes for Adrenalin Boost, giving it as an AoE would be craziness! And since they don't want to do AoE mez protection via ST buff, it makes sense that clear mind isn't on that list either.

However, for Pain/Poison, I would say that you might have some merit in saying their mez protection does the same as kinetics. Poison has 2 resist numbers, along with recharge and slow resistances. Pain's mez protection has +spd and +recharge, something that kinetics (sb) has as an AoE as well. Much nerfed in comparison on both accounts, but the point remains valid.

50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas View Post
The thing is, Empathy, Pain and Poison didn't (and don't) have to apply 2 click buffs to every team member every 2-4 minutes to fully contribute their buffing power.
No, my emp has to apply one buff every 16 seconds. If you want to compare QoL, I would gladly trade that for running down the list once every 2 minutes, since on an 8 man team, I'm keeping it up on the same 7 people as the other buffers are, but with much more hassle and redraw.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Do Empathy, Pain and Poison need a buff? Maybe but that's irrelevant to this change as I see it as those sets issues, if they exist, are different.
This thread is about buffers rejoicing, if all was balanced before, it can't be that way now as some buffers have something to sing about whilst others have nothing new. Pain and Poison may not be part of the defender sets hence why a small mention.

He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.