Illusion on Dominator = Overpowered?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-05-12 13:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Nope! Scrappers should get Ninjitsu, all the melee ATs should get access to Ice Armor and Ice Melee, Corruptors should get Psy Blast, FF and Poison, etc. |
Originally Posted by Airhammer
I actually hope it doesnt get ported over. Some things need to stay exclusive IMO..
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I don't agree with the idea that to play a certain set you have to play a certain AT. What if I want to have Ice Armor but not deal Tanker damage? More options is better. There's a point where too many choices can be paralyzing, but we're far from it.
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This is flawed logic.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
I actually hope it doesnt get ported over. Some things need to stay exclusive IMO..
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It implies that to be unique defenders need psy blast, which if we accept that thus means that playing a dark blast defender isn't a different experience than playing a dark blast corruptor. Yet it is.
The reality is that the AT modifiers and inherent power do far more to alter the play experience than the actual power sets do. This is why a dm/sr brute is still quite different than a dm/sr scrapper. Both are fun, both are different enough to exist. If it can work for two AT's that are so identical as brutes and scrappers then surely it can work and still provide a novel experience for something as drastically divergent as controllers and doms...
To answer the OP's question:
Yes and No.
Lower recharge ill doms would in all likelihood be underpowered compared to other dominators.
High recharge doms would be well behind other dominators from a control perspective (barring specific scenarios like AV's), but would be quite a bit ahead of them from a damage perspective.
The question then becomes is the trade off acceptable for the AT?
There was a time I thought the damage potential of a ill/fire dom was too high, but then I take a look at how the dev's have completely given up trying to balance this game and say go for it!
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Silas speaks the truth.
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Originally Posted by Silas
Nope! Scrappers should get Ninjitsu, all the melee ATs should get access to Ice Armor and Ice Melee, Corruptors should get Psy Blast, FF and Poison, etc.
I don't agree with the idea that to play a certain set you have to play a certain AT. What if I want to have Ice Armor but not deal Tanker damage? More options is better. There's a point where too many choices can be paralyzing, but we're far from it. |
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The best way to balance ATs and power sets? Give everyone nukes and super DoTs so all can kill non-praetorian mobs as quickly as one another.
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Originally Posted by FrostyG
There was a time I thought the damage potential of a ill/fire dom was too high, but then I take a look at how the dev's have completely given up trying to balance this game and say go for it!
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So it would seem...
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Originally Posted by baron_inferno
The best way to balance ATs and power sets? Give everyone nukes and super DoTs so all can kill non-praetorian mobs as quickly as one another.
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I actually agree with this. |
Originally Posted by Airhammer
I actually hope it doesnt get ported over. Some things need to stay exclusive IMO..
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I think every AT should have at least one set that is exclusive to it. It's not going to happen that way, but I'd like it that way.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Ill/psi would certainly be a great combo as well, but the -regen wouldn't be as significant as on a controller because doms do much more damage. -regen is essentially only good against very tough bosses, EBs and above, whereas the superior damage /fire provides is useful everywhere and all the time.| I'd think ILL/PSI would be the the way to go for the added -Regen of Drain Psyche. And thusly what helps things like ILL/RAD and ILL/COLD be awesome. |
To put things in perspective, */fire/ice doms (where * is a primary that doesn't contribute to damage in any shape or form) could reach 250 ranged DPS or 300 melee pylon DPS with some effort in I19. Add the Reactive proc, the illusion pets and you're easily looking at 400+ reliable, ranged DPS in total safety, which is enough to take out a +4 AV within minutes.
The devs can't give controllers /traps because it would be overpowered.
The devs can't give controllers /dark because it would be overpowered.
The devs can't give doms Ill because it would be overpowered.
The devs can't give scrappers SS because it would be overpowered.
Am I doing it right? 
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For what reason? Is it just you think each AT should have something unique? The Inherents of each AT make enough of a difference IMO.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I actually agree with this.
I think every AT should have at least one set that is exclusive to it. It's not going to happen that way, but I'd like it that way. |
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
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The devs give illusion/ to dominators!
They even double phantom army's threat level, and make their recharge match their duration!
...with the side note that phantom army no longer does any damage, serving a purely diversionary role. 
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Malaise has had Dark Illusion for a long time now. In fact, 'illusion' would be more suitable to 'villain' ATs since it's base in deception. Or it would be more fitting for a Defender as a diversionary tactic.|
Originally Posted by Come Undone
Ill can be OP with certain secondaries and lots of set bonuses, but in other cases it's no stronger than other control sets (and in some very rare cases like BaF, it's even weaker than other control sets).
I think the main reason it hasn't been ported to doms was some odd concept thing, aparently they just didn't think it fit with villians. Weather that has or will change, not sure. |
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
I actually hope it doesnt get ported over. Some things need to stay exclusive IMO..
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For example, every class has a fire based powerset. And every AT can make a Fire/Fire character. But, in a world where it should only belong to one AT... which one?
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Sweet, I finally get to roll that /fire defender I always wanted.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
For example, every class has a fire based powerset. And every AT can make a Fire/Fire character. But, in a world where it should only belong to one AT... which one?
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Malaise has had Dark Illusion for a long time now. In fact, 'illusion' would be more suitable to 'villain' ATs since it's base in deception. Or it would be more fitting for a Defender as a diversionary tactic.
Too late for that. Beside some powerset classes already plundered by all the ATs that share that class, one needs to ask *why* a particular power can only be wielded by one particular AT. For example, every class has a fire based powerset. And every AT can make a Fire/Fire character. But, in a world where it should only belong to one AT... which one? |
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Sweet, I finally get to roll that /fire defender I always wanted.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I don't think every set is getting ported. Why? Some sets simply don't work on all related ATs. Knock yourself out thinking Regen works on a tank with SOs. It won't. I still have the belief the devs make new sets to offer similar options for other ATs so they can get a version that does work for them. Regen won't work on tanks. Hello Willpower. Add in this, there is no real reason why Ice/ice can't come to scrappers. They have no fury issue like brutes. So why don't they have it? Ice is known as the best set for aggro control. Look at /fa and /sr on a brute compared to scrappers in terms of taunt auras. The devs seem to be saying tanks and brutes can be known as sets for aggro control while a scrapper won't. Why give a melee set that's not being designed for aggro control a set that's largely known for it?|
Originally Posted by Silas
For what reason? Is it just you think each AT should have something unique? The Inherents of each AT make enough of a difference IMO.
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This says nothing of Posi saying at a con/show that ports were done. Just remember the last time ports happened was i16. The Incarnate issue with it being the main theme can't be used since they have made new sets versus ports.
Every archetype could access powers in its class, and I think should. But with a caveat- there are a few side qualifiers for archetypes. Defender attacks all have a debuff/mitigative effect asosciated with them. Corruptors' secondaries all have debuffs.
Besides this, there are archetypal considerations. Brutes should benefit from being attacked, so their secondaries often play to this. Dominators are best with powers that give direct control. Controllers gain damage through control, so giving them control-heavy secondaries can be tricky, as it's also giving damage. Ally damage boosts on a mastermind are self damage boosts, given their pocket armies.
In the former, the rules are more cut and dry. If the devs keep to their rules, defenders don't get the existing fire blast because it brings no mitigation. Corruptors don't get forcefields/empathy as they exist, as they have no weakening ('corrupting') element.
In the latter, it's all grey. Ice armor for brutes? The slows/soft control are mitigation that reduce attacks, so on paper it can work against fury. But then throw in my /dark brute that survives via control, and I can tell you this point is moot. Deeper in the grey, you come across more problematic sets. Ninjitsu would suit brutes even less, as it doesn't just delay attacks, it redirects them from the brute. Fire aura is squishy but is balanced against burning nearby foes. How does that work on a stalker, who can't be setting fire to everyone around them at all times? How do you balance dark miasma for controllers, where it gives four new controls, along with a pet that also controls? In some of these cases, outright proliferation is a bad idea, and tweaks have to happen to suit the new archetype.
In my mind, illusion/ is actually one of the easier sets to balance. While dominators can compliment the temporary damage of the set by helping finish targets with attacks, they also are incapable of indirectly boosting the primary's damage/accuracy with resistance/defense debuffs. The difference between additive and multiplicative effects. The damage from illusion/ would be far more straightforward to balance than in the hands of their step-cousins, controllers.
To make it suit the archetype that doesn't bring much backup survivability in its secondary, I'd pull the group buff (group invisibility) and replace it with a sleep. (This suits the more villainous AT, as it means you only cloak yourself, not your allies) The powerset gets a bit more outright control the dominator can use, but not in a way that skews the character into a control juggernaut. Something like a cone, call it 'hypnotic gaze,' and call it a day.
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| Corruptors don't get forcefields/empathy as they exist, as they have no weakening ('corrupting') element. |
Small point on this--Defenders and Corruptors have Energy Blast (the "debuff" is knockback). 4 out of 9 Force Field powers are actually knockback or repel "debuffs" and 1 is a mezz. The set has a reputation for being a purely defensive set mainly because knockback, repel, and intangible kind of suck next to the debuffs and mezzes in other sets. But in terms of original design intent, Force Field actually has the same number of enemy-effecting powers as Cold Domination or Sonic and more than Pain. So the foundation is there, but the set lost out by gambling on knockback.
Given Posi's recent hint that proliferation is pretty much finished (
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I doubt it much matters.
*hunts for the link, fails to find it*
edit: Aha! I wasn't dreaming it.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
This says nothing of Posi saying at a con/show that ports were done. Just remember the last time ports happened was i16. The Incarnate issue with it being the main theme can't be used since they have made new sets versus ports.
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KB is mitigation, so it makes sense for a KB blast set to be in the hands of a defender. Again, all defender attack sets have mitigation and/or debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Small point on this--Defenders have Energy Blast (the "debuff" is knockback). 4 out of 9 Force Field powers are actually knockback or repel "debuffs" and 1 is a mezz. The set has a reputation for being a purely defensive set mainly because knockback, repel, and intangible kind of suck next to the debuffs and mezzes in other sets. But in terms of original design intent, Force Field actually has the same number of enemy-effecting powers as Cold Domination or Sonic and more than Pain. So the foundation is there, but the set lost out by gambling on knockback.
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Yes, forcefield has tons of repel, KB, and even some damage. These are mitigation, but not debuffs. All corruptor secondaries have debuffs.
This is why I said these don't fit the archetype rules as they exist. I'm certain the devs could tweak them slightly to make them fit, though. But as is they don't yet qualify.
But this is a side point, only tangential to illusion proliferation.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
KB is mitigation, so it makes sense for a KB blast set to be in the hands of a defender. Again, all defender attack sets have mitigation and/or debuffs.
Yes, forcefield has tons of repel, KB, and even some damage. These are mitigation, but not debuffs. All corruptor secondaries have debuffs. This is why I said these don't fit the archetype rules as they exist. I'm certain the devs could tweak them slightly to make them fit, though. But as is they don't yet qualify. |
I think this a rule made up to explain the way things happen to be rather than how they have to be.
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*shrugs* all I know is this: every attack power defenders have either reduces incoming damage, or messes up enemies. All corruptors' secondaries debuff, and when people clamored for empathy on corruptors, devs would sooner make a new, more debuff-based powerset cousin to the set than just do a direct port. Take that for what it's worth.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think this a rule made up to explain the way things happen to be rather than how they have to be.
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Again, this is tertiary. Illusion really doesn't need as big a reworking to suit dominators. The only two big question marks are the invulnerable phantom army, and spectral wounds on an archetype with almost double the damage of controllers. Both can be tweaked to a straight up dps maximum threshold. Phantom army is easy here, because its damage is a known quantity with a known lifetime. If a direct port of spectral wounds would be too much, they could reduce the damage, endurance, and recharge.
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This is how Fire Armor will work for Stalkers...|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Every archetype could access powers in its class, and I think should. But with a caveat- there are a few side qualifiers for archetypes. Defender attacks all have a debuff/mitigative effect asosciated with them. Corruptors' secondaries all have debuffs.
Besides this, there are archetypal considerations. Brutes should benefit from being attacked, so their secondaries often play to this. Dominators are best with powers that give direct control. Controllers gain damage through control, so giving them control-heavy secondaries can be tricky, as it's also giving damage. Ally damage boosts on a mastermind are self damage boosts, given their pocket armies. In the former, the rules are more cut and dry. If the devs keep to their rules, defenders don't get the existing fire blast because it brings no mitigation. Corruptors don't get forcefields/empathy as they exist, as they have no weakening ('corrupting') element. In the latter, it's all grey. Ice armor for brutes? The slows/soft control are mitigation that reduce attacks, so on paper it can work against fury. But then throw in my /dark brute that survives via control, and I can tell you this point is moot. Deeper in the grey, you come across more problematic sets. Ninjitsu would suit brutes even less, as it doesn't just delay attacks, it redirects them from the brute. Fire aura is squishy but is balanced against burning nearby foes. How does that work on a stalker, who can't be setting fire to everyone around them at all times? How do you balance dark miasma for controllers, where it gives four new controls, along with a pet that also controls? In some of these cases, outright proliferation is a bad idea, and tweaks have to happen to suit the new archetype. In my mind, illusion/ is actually one of the easier sets to balance. While dominators can compliment the temporary damage of the set by helping finish targets with attacks, they also are incapable of indirectly boosting the primary's damage/accuracy with resistance/defense debuffs. The difference between additive and multiplicative effects. The damage from illusion/ would be far more straightforward to balance than in the hands of their step-cousins, controllers. To make it suit the archetype that doesn't bring much backup survivability in its secondary, I'd pull the group buff (group invisibility) and replace it with a sleep. (This suits the more villainous AT, as it means you only cloak yourself, not your allies) The powerset gets a bit more outright control the dominator can use, but not in a way that skews the character into a control juggernaut. Something like a cone, call it 'hypnotic gaze,' and call it a day. |
Step 1) Replace Blazing Aura with Hide.
So the list of powers will look exactly like this and it would work for them!
1) Hide
2) Fire Shield
3) Healing Flames
4) Temp Protection (though I'd hope they'd move this to 35, as it's better to take late int he build imo)
5) Plasma Shield
6) Consume
7) Burn
8) Fiery Embrace
9) Rise of the Phoenix
Now, you may be thinking things like "You can't stealth while on fire, you'll be burning things" inwhich I say "Not really, they got rid of the power that would burn things (Blazing Aura) as Fire and Plasma Shield are more like fiery non hot auras!"
You might be saying "What about Burn?" To which I would reply "A more damaging version of caltrops"
You might say, "Wait...wait people would see those Claws/Sword/Whatever Primary light up with Fiery Embrace before one could Assassin Strike them" to which I would say "Not if it lights up right as it's less than an inch away from puncturing them! Use your imagination!"
Basically what I'm saying is, if Fiery Embrace gets ported to Stalkers as I just listed the powers, then I am so making another Stalker!
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Eh. Might still be weak, but not bad. Actually, if the tweaked the fx for fire's 'hide' to be smoke-based, it would make sense. (You can't see much in a fire because of smoke anywise) In fact, what if consume was replaced with 'smoke?'|
Originally Posted by BrandX
This is how Fire Armor will work for Stalkers...
Step 1) Replace Blazing Aura with Hide. So the list of powers will look exactly like this and it would work for them! 1) Hide 2) Fire Shield 3) Healing Flames 4) Temp Protection (though I'd hope they'd move this to 35, as it's better to take late int he build imo) 5) Plasma Shield 6) Consume 7) Burn 8) Fiery Embrace 9) Rise of the Phoenix Now, you may be thinking things like "You can't stealth while on fire, you'll be burning things" inwhich I say "Not really, they got rid of the power that would burn things (Blazing Aura) as Fire and Plasma Shield are more like fiery non hot auras!" You might be saying "What about Burn?" To which I would reply "A more damaging version of caltrops" You might say, "Wait...wait people would see those Claws/Sword/Whatever Primary light up with Fiery Embrace before one could Assassin Strike them" to which I would say "Not if it lights up right as it's less than an inch away from puncturing them! Use your imagination!" Basically what I'm saying is, if Fiery Embrace gets ported to Stalkers as I just listed the powers, then I am so making another Stalker! |
Now I double dog dare you to do a brute ninjitsu.
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Or a tank. Somehow I can all but laugh at the idea of a tank sneaking around. For some reason I have this cartoon version of it in my head. Here's this big guy going around on his tip toes. "Hulk sneak." (bust out laughing)
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Originally Posted by Seldom
Now I double dog dare you to do a brute ninjitsu.
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I actually hope it doesnt get ported over. Some things need to stay exclusive IMO..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-