Illusion on Dominator = Overpowered?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-05-12 13:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
no more powerful then it is on controllers.
I eagerly await this port.
IMO it is already overpowered. But yes Dominators would be even worse. Just maybe not as bad as Illusion/Traps, with its double damage from Containment against AVs.
[Ever wondered why we can't get an immobilize temp power? Look no further than the existence of Illusion Control. I'm not sure there is another set that can claim to have shut down an entire segment of power possibilities just by existing.]
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
However, Illusion also has many powers that are not affected by Domination.
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So does Electric Control but Dominators got that. I think it's more the Devs haven't gotten around to it yet.
Also with Power Customization available I don't think retooling the set as Dark Illusion is entirely necessary at this point.
I'm more curious as to why they haven't gotten Dark Assault yet as that seems like it would have been easier to do than Earth Assault.
I think I can't stand Illusion and if it never gets to Dominators it'll be too soon.
I see no reason whatsoever that Ill doms would be OP. In fact I'd say it would be weaker than the troller version, since the Ill primary deals damage (and sacrifices controls) that would be redudant with a Doms damaging secondary. Illusion damage over debuffs (see Cold, Rad, TA, Storm [not intended to be comprehensive so don't point out what's missing]) makes it potent. Illusion damage with more damage... I don't see it.
Also, to say there is no immob temp power is incorrect.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Fettering_Nimbus
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Web_Grenade_(PvP)
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Web_Grenade_(Raid)
Maybe Illusion isn't as game-breaking as that post states, at least if "no temp immobs are due to Illusion" is what we're to believe.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Trick Arrow says Hi!
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
IMO it is already overpowered. But yes Dominators would be even worse. Just maybe not as bad as Illusion/Traps, with its double damage from Containment against AVs.
[Ever wondered why we can't get an immobilize temp power? Look no further than the existence of Illusion Control. I'm not sure there is another set that can claim to have shut down an entire segment of power possibilities just by existing.] |
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Yeah... I have no idea why Oedipus_Tex said that. There certainly are immob temp powers, and Illusion has jack-all to do with their availability (or lack thereof.) Saying it would be the reason for that lack - I've *got* to hear this reasoning. It'll be amusing.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Also, to say there is no immob temp power is incorrect.
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| Trick Arrow says Hi! |
This, too. It's the only set I can pair with Ill to make Ill palatable.
I think it's the mechanics of the pets to be honest. I personally only think Flash, Blind and well...yeah thats it would gain domination. Spectral wounds might get a boost in damage, but the other damage effects or fear effects do not come from the Dominator at all. Thereby leaving two effective holds gaining momentum from Domination.
Since Illusion bases most of it's powers off pets which also do not gain containment effects then they would not, or could not...or should not, gain the benefits of Domination.
Since it is a very high damaging set to begin with the unbalance would come with the secondary assault. While Gravity does have two attacks the majority of it's powers are holds, stuns or or things that directly come from the caster in the terms of magnitude, while illusion does not. So Grav as a primary with an assault set does not tilt the damage scale as much as illusion would.
It would essentially make for 4 direct blaster types (Range/Melee) if you count your PA at lower levels. Add in say...Energy which boosts damage would result in unbalance. Add in Phanty at the end and you have another blaster type at your disposal. Adding more to the range direct damage.
Boost powers found in the assault sets should not effect these pets otherwise definately OP.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Trick Arrow says Hi!
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Oh, you mean the one in the set without the -Regen. The -Regen that combined with Containment would make Traps overpowered. But. Hi!
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| Also, to say there is no immob temp power is incorrect. |
Technically you are right, it is incorrect. Realistically, it's not, because of this:
"Be careful, these powers can be lost when you speak to the contact from which you received them again. Even though they appear to have a certain number of uses remaining, the power will be lost and you cannot regain them!"
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Yeah... I have no idea why Oedipus_Tex said that. There certainly are immob temp powers, and Illusion has jack-all to do with their availability (or lack thereof.) Saying it would be the reason for that lack - I've *got* to hear this reasoning. It'll be amusing.
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If there is a reliably available immobilize temp power please point me to it because I plan to abuse it for all it is worth. Having that power would increase the damage of several of my characters by an average of 30 to 50 percent, and change AV fighting strategies for Mind and Illusion Controllers as a whole. If such a power exists, most of these Controllers are settling for much less damage than they should be and should be made aware that, unless they are just doing it for bragging rights, double damage being just a temp power away.
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Yeah that's what a temp power is, it lasts for a temporary period then goes away. Weird way to spin there.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Oh, you mean the one in the set without the -Regen. The -Regen that combined with Containment would make Traps overpowered. But. Hi!
Technically you are right, it is incorrect. Realistically, it's not, because of this: "Be careful, these powers can be lost when you speak to the contact from which you received them again. Even though they appear to have a certain number of uses remaining, the power will be lost and you cannot regain them!" |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Replace Spectral Terror with Fearsome Stare for a Dominator version of Dark Illusion Control to create 2 ST (hold & confuse) and 2 AOE (hold & fear) mezzes that could be affected by domination.
This is what I'd like to see, although tar patch may be a bit 'over the top':
Spectral Wounds
Blind
Deceive
Flash
Superior Invisibility
Tar Patch
Phantom Army
Fearsome Stare
Phantasm
Ill/Emp, Stn/Ice, FF/Rad, Plt/Fire, Nrg/Nrg, Ice/Cld, Mrc/Psn, Ice/WM, Mnd/Psi, Earth/Son, SS/Inv, DB/Drk, Fire/Ice, NB/SR, Fire/Elc, NW, Fort, Bot/TA, Son/Kin, Crab, Arch/Fire, Drk/Elc, Nin/TA, Grv/Elc, Elc/Wll, Mnd/FF, Drk/Thm, Clw/Reg, Stn/Nrg, Elc/Mnt, Ice/Earth, Spn/Fire, DP/Trp, AR/Rad, BA/SD, DB/SR, Fire/Stn, WS, Drk/Stm, Dem/Drk, Rad/Nrg, SJ/SD, Fire/Psn, Elc/Nrg, SF/SR, Bst/Stm, DP/Fire, Thg/Trp, Wtr/Psn, BS/Wll, Nat/Psy. BR/Time
If it ever happens, I'll probably make my main an Ill/Fire and forget every other character I've ever had.
My opinion is that Illusion (PA specifically) is gamebreaking, and is more or less balanced by having no significant AoE output*, most of its ST damage tied to pets and no hard control. Add Dom secondaries, you remove the lack of AoE and get significant ST damage on which you have perfect control. Add permadom, you lessen the lack of hard control (blind/confuse at mag6 tagging bosses in one shot and EBs much easier ; as for minions and lieuts, not much of a concern IMHO).
*It could be argued that with reactive proc being WAI, certain combos like ill/cold get the best of both worlds.
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The PvP web grenades. Sirens control if your side controls it. Or arena (thouch cant recall if you can take the arena one with you).|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
If there is a reliably available immobilize temp power please point me to it because I plan to abuse it for all it is worth. Having that power would increase the damage of several of my characters by an average of 30 to 50 percent, and change AV fighting strategies for Mind and Illusion Controllers as a whole. If such a power exists, most of these Controllers are settling for much less damage than they should be and should be made aware that, unless they are just doing it for bragging rights, double damage being just a temp power away.
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Or start an arc for the other imob temp powers, and quit before talking to contact.
Or use the dayjob Web Weaver/Anti-Arachnos Activist temp power.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Yeah that's what a temp power is, it lasts for a temporary period then goes away. Weird way to spin there.
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No, it is a special flag assigned to some temp powers that makes sure they go away early and can't be held on to. All temp powers are not the same. I was wrong when I said that there are "no" temp powers. However, there are none that you can craft or have in inventory reliably. It's not an obstinate position of mine that such powers are withheld; I'd love to find one so I can abuse it. But there aren't any I can find. None of the powers listed in this thread is available enough for the dark intentions I have for it.
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A little OP with this scenario. It literally bows all other sets out of the water. This is very....impossible.|
Originally Posted by Ephemeris
Replace Spectral Terror with Fearsome Stare for a Dominator version of Dark Illusion Control to create 2 ST (hold & confuse) and 2 AOE (hold & fear) mezzes that could be affected by domination.
This is what I'd like to see, although tar patch may be a bit 'over the top': Spectral Wounds Blind Deceive Flash Superior Invisibility Tar Patch Phantom Army Fearsome Stare Phantasm |
Spectral Wounds
Blind
Deceive
Flash
Superior Invisibility
Group Invisibility
Phantom Army
(Perhaps Fearsom Stare or other fear effect.)
and Phantasm
Tar Patch and Fearsom stare would make this better than mind, obliterate grav, and well..Is technically better than the controller version of the same name...In my opinion.
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I'd think ILL/PSI would be the the way to go for the added -Regen of Drain Psyche. And thusly what helps things like ILL/RAD and ILL/COLD be awesome.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
If it ever happens, I'll probably make my main an Ill/Fire and forget every other character I've ever had.
My opinion is that Illusion (PA specifically) is gamebreaking, and is more or less balanced by having no significant AoE output*, most of its ST damage tied to pets and no hard control. Add Dom secondaries, you remove the lack of AoE and get significant ST damage on which you have perfect control. Add permadom, you lessen the lack of hard control (blind/confuse at mag6 tagging bosses in one shot and EBs much easier ; as for minions and lieuts, not much of a concern IMHO). *It could be argued that with reactive proc being WAI, certain combos like ill/cold get the best of both worlds. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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It would take longer to review, test, and tweak Illusion control for dominators than practically any other powerset. For the time it would take to proliferate Illusion control they could probably proliferate three other powersets for other archetypes. That currently makes the choice easy.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
What's the real reason behind Dominator not getting Illusion Control?
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Being good soloing AVs doesn't mean something is overpowered. It might if defeating an AV gave you something really good, like 50 merits a pop. But at the moment all you get is an SO and some bragging rights. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Oh, you mean the one in the set without the -Regen. The -Regen that combined with Containment would make Traps overpowered. But. Hi!
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Illusion/Traps wouldn't break the Time/Reward ratio particularly, so therefore I'm not sure you could say "It's overpowered cos it'd be great at soloing AVs"
Would traps be a great Controller secondary? Yes. Would it be stupidly broken and shower you in riches? Not really.
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Well except for the fact that Domis don't have too many Proliferation options left. If you're going by the standard "Every AT should at least get one new set in each round of Proliferation" standard that I think has been used each time then Illusions is quickly becoming the only option left for Domis. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It would take longer to review, test, and tweak Illusion control for dominators than practically any other powerset. For the time it would take to proliferate Illusion control they could probably proliferate three other powersets for other archetypes. That currently makes the choice easy.
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The only other option I can think of is Dark Assault, and that has issues of its own (it'd need to be cobbled together and tested, and leads onto the old thematic Dark Control chestnut)
Ill can be OP with certain secondaries and lots of set bonuses, but in other cases it's no stronger than other control sets (and in some very rare cases like BaF, it's even weaker than other control sets).
I think the main reason it hasn't been ported to doms was some odd concept thing, aparently they just didn't think it fit with villians. Weather that has or will change, not sure.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it.
Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with. |
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This is what I think. Illusion does not really need Domination to make it better. All the "gems" are pets that are unkillable and can grab aggro for Dom. Illusion on controller sort of works because the set itself has no immb to set up Containment so naturally it lacks aoe damage. |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
If it ever happens, I'll probably make my main an Ill/Fire and forget every other character I've ever had.
My opinion is that Illusion (PA specifically) is gamebreaking, and is more or less balanced by having no significant AoE output*, most of its ST damage tied to pets and no hard control. Add Dom secondaries, you remove the lack of AoE and get significant ST damage on which you have perfect control. Add permadom, you lessen the lack of hard control (blind/confuse at mag6 tagging bosses in one shot and EBs much easier ; as for minions and lieuts, not much of a concern IMHO). *It could be argued that with reactive proc being WAI, certain combos like ill/cold get the best of both worlds. |
I have a feeling the dev hasn't ported to Dominator because it may be overpowering and not because they have no time. The set revolves mostly around "pets" so there is very little they need to do for Domination.
And having Perma dom is still beneficial because you still get mez protection, endurance and the single hold, aoe hold and confuse can still be enhanced.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Well, we'll see. My guts says it's because Illusion on Dominator could be overpowering but who is to say Illusion/Rad isn't too powerful already? :P
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Originally Posted by DMystic
So does Electric Control but Dominators got that. I think it's more the Devs haven't gotten around to it yet.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
When ever I hear the "to OP for doms" speech about illusion I think about reactive procs in rains, I think about shields and lightning, footstomps and burn patches. I think about people soloing AVs and GMs, people soloing spawns +4/x8 even before incarnate powers and a duo completing a lambda incarnate trial. I think about that mind/fire dom that soloed the LRSF and warwoks that can solo rikti pilon with nothing more then buffs and heals from an emp.
This game anything can be OP with the right build and the right IOs and smart slotting. It doesn't even take a genius and that's why I love it(and the whole super heroes thing XD) Please DEVs hear my plea, Illusion for doms for the people!
I've been reading a lot of threads on how awesome Illusion is for soloing and for other purposes (like tanking AVs). Many Dominators want a Dark Illusion control set.
What's the real reason behind Dominator not getting Illusion Control? Controller has all of Dominator's control sets but Dominator doesn't get Illusion.
I believe it's going to overpowered on Dominator when you have PA tanking. However, Illusion also has many powers that are not affected by Domination.
Do you think it's going to be too powerful on a perma Dom or the dev just hasn't got to it? I mean it shouldn't take long to port Illusion set since you don't need to change anything, unlike creating a new Assault set for Dom.
What do you think? I mean I've tried Illusion/Thermal and while the pets are very awesome, Illusion lacks aoe damage (but this won't be a problem on Dominator!).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.