Illusion on Dominator = Overpowered?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-05-12 13:50 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
You know what I meant 
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Actually, since you're now using GG punctuation i'm a little uncertain as to what you meant. You could have meant what i'd normally think you meant, but if you're in GG mode you could mean you have absolute blind faith in whatever your nanny told you in the third grade, all evidence, common sense, and rational thought to the contrary be damned.
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Originally Posted by Silas
You know what I meant
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Eh? What I meant was that while a dude saying something another dude said is technically a quote, it doesn't mean the person actually said that. I can say that Posi told me he reads my guides before he goes to bed every night and is trying to push through a change for Corrs to have 3k base hit points and people can point to my post saying he said it, but that doesn't mean he actually said it.
I wasn't at the Meet and Greet, Posi may well have said that they're done with powerset proliferation. My point is that I think someone saying he said so is a quote is being a little generous with the term. Secondary source, if you will.
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Right. That's what i thought you meant. It was the Golden Girl style response that threw me. When i see her posts i know any sort of rational thought or reasonable discourse just became highly unlikely.
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Originally Posted by Silas
Eh? What I meant was that while a dude saying something another dude said is technically a quote, it doesn't mean the person actually said that. I can say that Posi told me he reads my guides before he goes to bed every night and is trying to push through a change for Corrs to have 3k base hit points and people can point to my post saying he said it, but that doesn't mean he actually said it.
I wasn't at the Meet and Greet, Posi may well have said that they're done with powerset proliferation. My point is that I think someone saying he said so is a quote is being a little generous with the term. Secondary source, if you will. |
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So when do you think this is coming, I21? Cool. I really need to start leveling mine.
| Posi told me he reads my guides before he goes to bed every night and is trying to push through a change for Corrs to have 3k base hit points |
Patch goes live tomorow. Also, Fire Blast for Corruptors is getting revamped to the following:
- Blaze
- Fireball
- Blaze
- Rain of Fire
- Build Up
- Footstomp
- Rage
- Fortunata Psychic Wail
- Blaze that Scourges 100% of the time regardless of hp
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i thought that i dreamed that someone said that they heard someone else say that War Witch told them that Positron said that the changes would go live at the same time that Doms got Illusion. Does that mean we're getting Dominator Illusion tomorrow as well?
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Originally Posted by Silas
Patch goes live tomorow. Also, Fire Blast for Corruptors is getting revamped to the following:
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In regards to Illusion on Doms: uh, why?
You have no control at all. You have virtually no powers that would benefit from Domination in any meaningful way.
You know why Illu is so good on controllers? Because they come with buffs and debuffs that make their 2 attacks, their pets, and team more productive. The only meaningful thing a Dom would get out of having a Illu primary is a pocket Tank. Which is good, but a bit outside of what a dominator is supposed to be. They're supposed to be the ones in charge, not sitting back and watching. In fact, i think that's the crux of why Illu hasn't been (or ever will be) ported: Illu plays more like a MASTERMIND set than a dominator one. IIRC, Posi even said that once.
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
In regards to Illusion on Doms: uh, why?
You have no control at all. You have virtually no powers that would benefit from Domination in any meaningful way. |
This is really not the case. The reason you would want an Illusion Dominator is the same reason you'd want a Dominator of any of the other Controller sets. Dominators and Controllers bear a passing resemblance to each other but in actuality are very different beasts.
Here are the numbers of powers that benefit from Domination on the existing sets after removing the immobilize powers:
[EDIT: Forgot Fire and Grav]
Mind - 8
Earth - 3 (but one is a sleep very few use)
Ice - 3 (but one is a sleep very few use)
Electric - 1.5 (because Synaptic can only dominate the first target)
Plant - 2
Fire - 3
Gravity - 3
Illusion - 3
Now if we want to say that being able to Dominate on an immob you can spam anyway is a critical asset for Dominators, we can do that, but I think most people will disagree. The fact is though that compared to Ice or Electric Control, Illusion has exactly as much meaningful AoE Domination potential (1 power each after removing Ice's LOLSleep), and more single target (2 powers to their one).
Illusion Dominators would be powerful as heck. In fact, outside of AVs, Illusion/Fire would be damn near unkillable and still kill AVs fast enough to be worth the trade off (see: Mind/Fire Dominators). I'm not sure whether its powerful enough to be "overpowered" but I can definitely see why people would want one.
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That's my take on it as well. To be honest i was always surprised that Illusion wasn't given to Dominators since in the genre that City of Heroes is based on illusions are used by villains far more often than heroes. When Earth was given to Dominators i was surprised that it wasn't Illusion instead both for genre reasons and because, as Tex mentions, Earth and Illusion benefit just about equally from Domination.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
This is really not the case. The reason you would want an Illusion Dominator is the same reason you'd want a Dominator of any of the other Controller sets. Dominators and Controllers bear a passing resemblance to each other but in actuality are very different beasts.
Here are the numbers of powers that benefit from Domination on the existing sets after removing the immobilize powers: Mind - 8 Earth - 3 (but one is a sleep very few use) Ice - 3 (but one is a sleep very few use) Electric - 1.5 (because Synaptic can only dominate the first target) Plant - 2 Illusion - 3 Now if we want to say that being able to Dominate on an immob you can spam anyway is a critical asset for Dominators, we can do that, but I think most people will disagree. The fact is though that compared to Ice or Electric Control, Illusion has exactly as much meaningful AoE Domination potential (1 power each after removing Ice's LOLSleep), and more single target (2 powers to their one). Illusion Dominators would be powerful as heck. In fact, outside of AVs, Illusion/Fire would be damn near unkillable and still kill AVs fast enough to be worth the trade off (see: Mind/Fire Dominators). I'm not sure whether its powerful enough to be "overpowered" but I can definitely see why people would want one. |
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Ill plays nothing like a MM. Ill plays like Ill and some people love that, some people dont. One thing for sure though is that an ill dom would be a distinctly different experience than an ill troller. If for no other reason than that it warrants possible proliferation. Imo it would port well as it is, but some modifications may be appropriate.
Edit: and the idea of having a 'pocket tank' given the damage doms can dish out is delightful from many players' viewpoint. If that was intended to be negative; it wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
That's my take on it as well. To be honest i was always surprised that Illusion wasn't given to Dominators since in the genre that City of Heroes is based on illusions are used by villains far more often than heroes. When Earth was given to Dominators i was surprised that it wasn't Illusion instead both for genre reasons and because, as Tex mentions, Earth and Illusion benefit just about equally from Domination.
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Yes--to sidetrack the argument again for a second, I think all of the control sets benefit from Domination. They all do it a bit differently though.
For example, some people see the power count totals for Domination and conclude Mind is "the best" Dominator, but that's not exactly correct. Other considerations are how much the character benefits from mezz protection (Ice, Fire, Electric: a lot), and how frequently a key power hard mezz is available (Plant, Earth, Fire: a lot). Then there are the benefits of just being part of the Dominator AT at all and getting a powerset devoted specifically to damage (esp. Ice, Electric, Earth).
In essence, all of the Control sets play very differently on Dominators than they do on Controllers. Illusion would be no different here. This isn't to say it should or should not be ported, only that there isn't a hard and fast argument for why it should or shouldn't happen.
[As a further offshoot I will add that it is somehat alarming to me that some people say that if a set is good on Dominators or good on Controllers, its worse on the other AT. I think Doms and Controllers are too different from each other to pair side by side; Dominators being an offshoot of Blasters, and Controllers an offshoot of Defenders. The two ATs have about as much in common as Tankers do with Stalkers. They do share a powerset but the nature of the two ATs diverges from there.]
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Well said. Controllers use immb to get double damage but Dominator won't have that problem. In fact, most of my dominators don't even use immb and aoe immb. They draw a lot of aggro and cost a lot of endurance. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
This is really not the case. The reason you would want an Illusion Dominator is the same reason you'd want a Dominator of any of the other Controller sets. Dominators and Controllers bear a passing resemblance to each other but in actuality are very different beasts.
Here are the numbers of powers that benefit from Domination on the existing sets after removing the immobilize powers: [EDIT: Forgot Fire and Grav] Mind - 8 Earth - 3 (but one is a sleep very few use) Ice - 3 (but one is a sleep very few use) Electric - 1.5 (because Synaptic can only dominate the first target) Plant - 2 Fire - 3 Gravity - 3 Illusion - 3 Now if we want to say that being able to Dominate on an immob you can spam anyway is a critical asset for Dominators, we can do that, but I think most people will disagree. The fact is though that compared to Ice or Electric Control, Illusion has exactly as much meaningful AoE Domination potential (1 power each after removing Ice's LOLSleep), and more single target (2 powers to their one). Illusion Dominators would be powerful as heck. In fact, outside of AVs, Illusion/Fire would be damn near unkillable and still kill AVs fast enough to be worth the trade off (see: Mind/Fire Dominators). I'm not sure whether its powerful enough to be "overpowered" but I can definitely see why people would want one. |
Illusion's weakness (no immb for containment) is a non-issue for Dominator so in a way, Illusion may even more powerful on Dom even if the pets don't benefit from Domination.
Perma Dom is still highly desirable for frequent endurance fuel and mez protection and the single hold can benefit too.
I see Illusion being a very good soloing set much like Illusion/Rad or /cold.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Let the players judge if Illusion doesn't fit. :P Just like give Stalker/Brute Ice Melee and let us decide if it sucks. |
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
You know why Illu is so good on controllers? Because they come with buffs and debuffs that make their 2 attacks, their pets, and team more productive. The only meaningful thing a Dom would get out of having a Illu primary is a pocket Tank. Which is good, but a bit outside of what a dominator is supposed to be. They're supposed to be the ones in charge, not sitting back and watching. In fact, i think that's the crux of why Illu hasn't been (or ever will be) ported: Illu plays more like a MASTERMIND set than a dominator one. IIRC, Posi even said that once.
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I used to think Illusion may suck on Dominator but I level an Ill/Thermal and I realize that much of the control is from the pets. Well, not really "control" but aggro-grabbing and it's not like Illusion has no single hold. Illusion still has ST Hold and ST Confuse which benefit from Domination.
Dominator playing more like Mastermind? SURE! At least it's a very different gameplay from Mind Control. I see it as a "positive" rather than a negative.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Heh. It took leveling a illusion/ controller to help me realize the closest analogue archetype to a controller was a tanker. Aggro control IS control. The only odd part is that it has the added complication of including your HP in addition to mag and recharge. Illusion control takes the tanker control, and makes it simpler. The phantoms don't need to worry about survival, just threat level and duration for their targets.
Illusion is a third aggro control, a third control control, and a third defeat control. The last because dead doesn't fight back.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
Heh. It took leveling a illusion/ controller to help me realize the closest analogue archetype to a controller was a tanker. Aggro control IS control. The only odd part is that it has the added complication of including your HP in addition to mag and recharge. Illusion control takes the tanker control, and makes it simpler. The phantoms don't need to worry about survival, just threat level and duration for their targets.
Illusion is a third aggro control, a third control control, and a third defeat control. The last because dead doesn't fight back. |
I might make it about 45% Aggro, 25% Control and 30% Defeat. The most important part about working Phantom Army is timing and placement. I really consider Deceive to more of an Aggro power than a control power, too.
I don't know that Illusion is "simpler" than a tank, but they have some similarities. Illusion has to worry about position AND timing. Tanks mostly worry about positioning. I found it fairly easy to go from my Illusion Controllers to playing tankers.
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Especially since one of the worst enemies for Doms are those irritating EBs with purple triangles that are almost unmezzable. An Illusion Dom would be able to handle targets with the PToD better than any other Dom, I think.
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Originally Posted by FrostyG
Edit: and the idea of having a 'pocket tank' given the damage doms can dish out is delightful from many players' viewpoint.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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I'm not him, but I'll throw this out:|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Now I double dog dare you to do a brute ninjitsu.
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1: Ninja Reflexes
2: Danger Sense
3: Ninja Stealth (not quite full invisibility, no movement debuff)
4: Kuji-In Rin (Status Protection)
5: Kuji-In Sha (Self Heal)
6: Poisoned Caltrops (adds some toxic damage)
7: Flash Bomb (AoE stun, like Fault but no kb)
8: Blinding Powder (Does minor AoE damage, combines a strong Taunt with an accuracy debuff)
9: Kuji-In Retsu (Elude clone)
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
I'm going to use that as a quote.