Quote:
I know what he said. My assertion is that it is not unambiguous. It almost immediately spawned a number of nearly identical questions seeking clarification from a number of players. Those questions have not been answered.|
Originally Posted by Katten
I believe the quote your referencing was clearly stated by one of the senior designers (Berionyx).
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Assuming is not sufficient. Interpreting is not wise. We each only know what we think he said. We do not know with certainty what he actually meant.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I ran 3 Trials last night, and got an uncommon on my first one, and then a rare on each of the other two - I just need to open some slots now to use them 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
This isn't quite accurate. Your participation determines whether or not you get the 10 threads (minimum reward) or you get the random component table. Once you get the random table it is all random and your participation means nothing per Berionyx. Your participation has no effect on how rare a component you get. As long as you meet the minimum requirements for participation you have as much chance of getting a very rare as anyone else.|
Originally Posted by Katten
I believe the quote your referencing was clearly stated by one of the senior designers (Berionyx).
Basically: The more you participate, the higher tier table you gain access to, at the end, you randomly receive one of the tables up to the tier you've opened that trial. So if you 'participate' alot, than you might have the ability to get a Very Rare, but you are also much more likely (since it sounds like the tables are weighted) to get the other more common results. Those that don't participate get no chance to access the higher tiers when their random is rolled. As for what 'participation' is... They say it's definitely not *Damage Points Done *Healing Points Done *Randomly Clicking Powers *Tagging enemies Also they say leadership is rewarded to some extent because they expect leaders to pause now and then to give direction. |
Now if they have started including the 10 thread reward in with the component rewards as part of the random rewards than that sucks.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
Quote:
That's horrible design. If anything, we each had to participate more than usual to carry us through. If the trial will start with a number then that number should be sufficient for everyone to get a real reward.|
Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
One Theory on why you are getting 10 Threads, is because you don't have enough teammates to carry your participation over the threshold of the Reward Tables. Try getting a Larger League.
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Ironically, prior to the patch, people would say "Try running a smaller league" to people saying they were having issues participating enough against the AoE'ers. Now I'm getting told I can't have a small league if I don't want to get threads.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
If each has to particiapte more, then their individual performamce should carry them.
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I got an uncommon on every run I did after the patch. I was on my KM/ElecA scrapper. I promise I was participating.
I hate this reward system so much that it has tainted the rest of i20 for me. I love everything about it. The trials, the powers, the TF, shoot I even like the story. Hate may not even be a strong enough word.
The crafting cost makes it even more painful. At this point I have 6 of every uncommon saved, and not enough inf to craft them up. That is really frustrating.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
Quote:
I'd initially been wondering if the people who got threads were mainly the 2 who started on acids, since we split 5-2 for the gathering. But I know that you were on grenades with me, and I'm pretty sure you were at almost every containment chamber first.|
Originally Posted by Jophiel
We just ran a Lambda with seven people (don't ask). Did a typical job: cleared 100% on the streets, courtyard, guns, usual run through for the 'nades and then plowed Marauder.
Three of us got threads (including myself) |
Do you remember if the other 2 receiving the thread table were the defender and dominator who went and did acids? Or if either of them got threads?
I felt fortunate to get a common out of that run, in part because I had to pull out my Lore pets and doing so always makes me leery of hosing the reward table.
I'm really trying to figure out what we did "wrong" to get so many low rewards. The only way that felt different was that the clearing phases took a little longer. We got the bonus Astral for destroying a chamber and a crate within 2 seconds of each other, the bonus Astrals for getting all the temp powers, and smoked Marauder more quickly than a lot of 16-Lambda's I've been on. There is something seriously wrong with a participation system that not only does not reward participation, but that punishes players for powering through when the situation gets more difficult...
Hey, tinfoil hat time! Maybe they figured out that once there were a lot of tier-3's, it'd get easier for people to do this, and small teams of 8 would be able to complete it without recruiting from the masses. So to keep the "elite" teams from being motivated to exclude people who might be sitting in the queue, waiting (and one of our 7 was from the queue, I think...), they included team size as a variable affecting rewards.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
I remember the Stalker got threads (I think... watch you say now that you were the stalker 
). I was the tank. I don't recall the archetype of the third.
I was on 90% of the tubes, missing one when I turned the wrong way in the hall but besides that, yeah, I was leading the charge on the containers and trying to absorb the alphas for the squishies.
I'm torn between running more small teams as a test and saying "Screw it" and avoiding small teams rather than spend my nights getting Leech Prizes in the name of science.
Quote:
I was the brute.|
Originally Posted by Jophiel
I remember the Stalker got threads (I think... watch you say now that you were the stalker
). |
Quote:
| I'm torn between running more small teams as a test and saying "Screw it" and avoiding small teams rather than spend my nights getting Leech Prizes in the name of science. |
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Quote:
No. What Baryonyx said is that, once you hit a certain level of 'participation' you move off the '10 thread consolation table' and get the regular (common/uncommon/rare/very rare) tables. WHICH table you get is RANDOM. |
Originally Posted by Katten
I believe the quote your referencing was clearly stated by one of the senior designers (Berionyx).
Basically: The more you participate, the higher tier table you gain access to, at the end, you randomly receive one of the tables up to the tier you've opened that trial. |
To restate: Participation too low gets you the 10 thread table. Participation above that level gets you one of the others, DETERMINED RANDOMLY.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
The distribution seemed better in that limited sample. I got several Commons, for a change. I still got an awful lot of Uncommons. At least I can now downgrade them.|
Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
I ran Leagues for about 7 hours straight after dinner. I couldn't tell you how many. I saw no reports of 10 threads tables, but my friend the MM, previously consigned to Commons and Uncommons exclusively over at least dozens of runs, picked up a Very Rare.
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Quote:
| I'd say ask Golden Girl, since she was there for a number of them, but even I know how unlikely it is for anyone to believe her on here. I actually made a joke about it when I invited her to the League. "I had to invite GG. We can pretend like it's the forums and tell her she's wrong about everything." |
BTW, the only time I've ever gotten the 10 thread table, on any character, was on two runs where I DC'ed multiple times. Even 8-10 trips to the hospital didn't seem to hurt my 'participation rating'.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I started taking better notes when using my fire/fire/ice which is the second of my toon to pursue the new slots. Its a really small sample since im getting tired of these trials.
9 bafs
2 lambdas
2 rare (baf)
9 uncommon(baf, lambda)
----PATCH----
1 bafs
2 lambdas
1 rare (lambda)
1 common (baf)
1 very rare (lambda)
No attempts to game the system so no aberrant behavior. Just play like i usually would which is aggressive.
Only thing to note after the patch is that the baf was a 16 man and that i received the syncronised badge on the lambda i got the rare. I got the VR on the lambda i died alot during the marauder fight.
I do welcome commons dropping but it feels like i failed somehow even if we didnt.
Ran more small scale lambdas today, with more of the same players, some with the same characters, playing more or less the same way... No threads table, I believe.
I haven't been able to identify something different or particular in our trials that could have caused the discrepancies with yesterday's runs.
Quote:
And he then stated that the random table (particularly the Very Rare drop) can be weighted by certain league-performance standards. Which is completely non-contradictory to the first statement.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
No. What Baryonyx said is that, once you hit a certain level of 'participation' you move off the '10 thread consolation table' and get the regular (common/uncommon/rare/very rare) tables. WHICH table you get is RANDOM.
To restate: Participation too low gets you the 10 thread table. Participation above that level gets you one of the others, DETERMINED RANDOMLY. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Working As Intended.
New Participation formula=
(Amount of Powers clicked during the trial + Number of badges + Number of Global Friends) / (Number of People on ignore + Number of stored items in gleemail + Number of items sold and unclaimed in Auction House) - (Number of defeats x time in seconds spent chatting during trial) - (Number of visits from rednames to your forum profile + number of pets you had out during the trial)
If this score is over 100 you get an uncommon.
If this score is less than 99 you get 10 threads.
anything between 99-100 means you get a random roll.
So my score is always gonna be "Divide by zero error"?
"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
So apparently if you somehow manage to solo the thing you get no reward because you were not participating enough.
Quote:
Interesting. I might run a couple tonight just to see.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Ran more small scale lambdas today, with more of the same players, some with the same characters, playing more or less the same way... No threads table, I believe.
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However in vogue it may be to complain about the system, I'd be happier to learn that it was working just ducky and my experience was an outlier.
I only started playing with I20 on thursday. Over the weekend, I played a lot with my rad/rad defender on Freedom, always on full or nearly full teams.
I didn't record every drop, but by the time I unlocked each slot, I usually had enough salvage to craft the uncommon for that slot and a little extra (I got rares immediatelly slotted in everything by converting all astral merits to threads and threads to common components - before we had the great downgrade option - and I did craft one rare with uncommons+threads+inf and 1 rare with empyrean merits). By the end of the weekend, I even had 1 very rare from a reward table stored. I also got rares from joining successful master runs for both trials.
Then yesterday I did 1 BAF and 1 Lambda after the patch (both were regular runs), got 1 rare and 1 very rare and crafted his second and third very rare powers (now it's only destiny with just a rare). It's a very small sample of post-patch reward rolls, but it sure felt nice.
My brother, who's been playing a ST-focused scrapper on Freedom in full teams since I20 launched, tells me he's had similar results.
I only started playing I20 stuff with my crab, on Champion, on monday though. While it wasn't hard to find full teams for the BAF, people there seem to hate Lambda passionately and the three times I ran it, it was with very small teams:
- 1st time we had 8, I led, we almost failed after doing everything pretty standard because Marauder reinforcements (yes, we closed all the doors, eventually) were very spread out instead of dying to AoE and kept messing us up. After we regrouped and let the reinforcements bunch up to die, we did pretty well.
- 2nd time we had 7 (1 just filled for us then dropped) and it was a pretty standard run, except that we missed one of the acids in the warehouse (by seconds!) and had to get it outside.
- 3rd time we had 9, and it was an amazing PUG, everybody knew exactly what to do and the run was perfect.
So, in Champion, it was always small groups for Lambda. I got ixp faster in the small groups with my crab than in the larger groups with my defender in the same trial (and both are very AoE-centric and actually do similar damage after accounting for the alpha slot), and I did not notice any discrepancy in the reward tables. My Crab is getting lots of uncommons, just like my defender did. No one in our small teams mentioned getting the threads reward.
With all the trials I've run for my defender and crab, before and after the patch, I only ever got the threads reward once, in a Lambda run with my defender, when I got pretty lost in the warehouse, was always behind the team and only helped with a couple boxes there. It still pissed me off, because I felt I participated a lot in all other stages of the trial.
But that, and what other people who got the threads reward told me, got me thinking about a theory. I have no evidence and I don't feel like experimenting, but I'm -THINKING- one of the factors in the participation formula might be how much you stuck together to at least some of your teamates. It would work well against door sitters, too.
I've heard of people whose trial went well, everything got done, but everyone was doing their own thing far from the others and several got threads.
I know the one time I got threads was the time I spent a considerable amount of time away from every other person in the team (but I was moving around looking for the objectives and often hitting powers - usually to heal myself).
So, I guess my question (to add more anedoctal evidence for or against my crackpot theory) to you guys who got threads is: did you spend most of the time with 2 or 3 teamates around you, or were you doing your own thing away from the team for a considerable amount of time (even if it was productive, unlike that one time I got lost)? If you were alone a lot, that could be it, and tell us what not to do. Or I could be totally wrong...
Playing CoH with Gestures
Quote:
I think they need to clearly state if the door sitter prize is part of the reward table or not, not just if it is. |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
That's a good point. I will admit that I read their message that way - "the 10 threads table is for leechers, exclusively", and so do most people I've talked with. If it is intended to be part of the random reward, it might be better if they mention it specifically in whatever next announcement we get on incarnate stuff. |
But I also think they need to explicitly state how the participation puzzle works.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
I think 10 threads should be removed, and the door sitter should be the common drops Previous common drops place will be the new uncommon the remaining percentage will be split 75/25 with rare and very rare.
Quote:
/rant|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
I think they need to clearly state if the door sitter prize is part of the reward table or not, not just if it is.
But I also think they need to explicitly state how the participation puzzle works. |
Couldn't agree more.
On my MMs and ill/ff troller (obviously all heavy pet-based characters) I'm getting the leech prize or commons. I cannot 'participate' without using my pets (I am not going to go near the petless MM debate).
I have been using my non-pet powers. I try not to leech (sometimes my spouse wants to talk, so I play on auto-pilot/button mash etc - life happens). I often do more work on these characters than my fire/kin corr, but he, without exception, gets better ixp and rewards.
I know this post seems erratic, but quite frankly I am extremely frustrated by this 'participation' system. The unknown criteria we have to work within (and what seems to be proven thus far by players) is, to me, completely unfair to a whole a/t (and others).
I truly feel that as a MM and illusion troller player, I am being penalised for using my primary set. If this isn't so, devs, feel free to look at my logs and see what ixp and drops I've been getting (I'm happy to point out which characters to look at to narrow the search).
I am also very annoyed about what the reward structure (including ixp) has done to the culture of the game. When i20 launched, players on the teams I was on had a great deal of fun, didn't rush in like they hadn't taken their attention deficit medication, didn't ***** that player x had a very rare drop and generally worked together to determine how best to complete the trial. Now, this seems to happen fair less.
I would humbly ask, as others have done, drop this 'participation' system as it works now. Right now, I don't care that a leech might get equivalent to what I've got - as it is, I'm getting the 'threads' option up, so the game already believes I'm a leech when I'm working myself stupid.
Thank you for the conversion options on incarnate salvage - it is a positive move in my opinion. However, it benefits those who actually get above common isalvage, so my last paragraph is still relevant. With a system which seems so inherently discriminatory, you could make a conversion path that allowed rares to become very rares - it makes little difference if the player is getting commons or, at times, uncommons. It doesn't fix the underlying problem.
To me, the current system is the same as working for a company with a performance management process but doesn't give the employees the key performance indicators. One of the KPIs is to have perfect vision. One of the employees wears glasses, and constantly gets a 'please try harder' e-mail. His colleague sitting next to him does the same amount of paper shuffling, but gets a 'great work, keep it, here's a movie ticket' result. The problem is not the workers, or their work, but they get different rewards. It doesn't matter if you allow the ticket-holder to give his ticket away for a chocolate bar and an Enya Greatest Hits CD, it won't help the guy who has to wear glasses.
/end rant
Quote:
I did two Lambdas and a BAF tonight on an Ill/Emp and got two rares and 3 uncommons on the night. Marauder went down amazingly fast; not sure what was doing such heavy damage against him.|
Originally Posted by SlackTech
On my MMs and ill/ff troller (obviously all heavy pet-based characters) I'm getting the leech prize or commons. I cannot 'participate' without using my pets (I am not going to go near the petless MM debate).
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All I'm doing is what you should do: hit every group I can with Spectral Terror, buff players with Fort and AB, heal people who get damaged, use Group Invisibility, zip in near the AV to use recovery and regen auras, etc. I summon pets when they go down. I use my three measly ST attacks when I'm not doing anything else. Oh, and I don't rock the Healing Aura.
I play a lot of characters with pseudopets (Earth/Storm controller, Earth/Fire dom, Fire/Dark corruptor, TA/Archery defender), and these results are typical. So I'm not sure pseudopets are really the issue.
One thing I do make a point of is getting into the action fast: if you dawdle getting to the next spawn someone will use Judgement and nuke all the minions. I try to make sure that I debuff the spawn in some way before the heavy hitters take them out. I have no way of knowing whether that makes a difference for the rewards
Quote:
I would hope that I'm doing as you say, but as an experiment I will ensure that I release Spectral Terror constantly, use my force field shields constantly and throw my ST hold and 'attack' power (it is quite pathetic) regularly.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
I did two Lambdas and a BAF tonight on an Ill/Emp and got two rares and 3 uncommons on the night. Marauder went down amazingly fast; not sure what was doing such heavy damage against him.
All I'm doing is what you should do: hit every group I can with Spectral Terror, buff players with Fort and AB, heal people who get damaged, use Group Invisibility, zip in near the AV to use recovery and regen auras, etc. I summon pets when they go down. I use my three measly ST attacks when I'm not doing anything else. Oh, and I don't rock the Healing Aura. I play a lot of characters with pseudopets (Earth/Storm controller, Earth/Fire dom, Fire/Dark corruptor, TA/Archery defender), and these results are typical. So I'm not sure pseudopets are really the issue. One thing I do make a point of is getting into the action fast: if you dawdle getting to the next spawn someone will use Judgement and nuke all the minions. I try to make sure that I debuff the spawn in some way before the heavy hitters take them out. I have no way of knowing whether that makes a difference for the rewards |
I agree - I'm yet to see evidence that pseudo-pets are the problem. Certainly RoF etc on my Corrs don't seem to hurt the end result. However, it's hard to play a ill troller or MM without releasing pets, and this does seem to be a problem.
As for Judgement - I don't have it on any MM or the ill troller, due to the ixp being so slow that I can't bring myself to take them on a trial often (and I appreciate the irony of that). I hate the fact that it's become a case of 'release Judgement before anyone else hits the group' - if this is what the devs intended, I think it's a poor design practice.
I maintain the system is not measuring participation in a fair way across archetypes (and some powersets) - I don't know quite what it's measuring, but I argue its interpretation of participation is not accurate and is incredibly frustrating.
Quote:
During the Sabotage phase, my friends who got the threads table pretty much stuck together. I, on the other hand, often go my own way and solo for a while. Even during the courtyard part, I sometimes start killing turrets while people are still taking out normal groups - and my rewards were uncommon, rare, rare, uncommon, very rare I believe (not 100% sure about the last 3 because we did both BAFs and Lambdas yesterday, but I know I only got one common and it was on a BAF).
| did you spend most of the time with 2 or 3 teamates around you, or were you doing your own thing away from the team for a considerable amount of time (even if it was productive, unlike that one time I got lost)? If you were alone a lot, that could be it, and tell us what not to do. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA