Am I the only one who doesn't care about the story?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2011-04-26 07:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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"Loyalists" have never been particularly described as loyal to Emperor Cole, but more so to the regime and to the people of Praetoria. You can very much remain loyal to the fascist regime he has set up without necessarily wanting to serve the man, himself. That's actually what the final Morality mission for the Loyalists constitutes - the decision between bringing Cole down along with his entire government, or choosing to deal with his madness without upsetting the status quo.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
When I re-subbed and bought GR, I was all pumped to be a Loyalist. I rolled a new scrapper since soloing was my only option at that time. Around level 15, and after reading various bits of information, I discovered that remaining a Loyalist after level 20 was impossible. I abandoned that character. I all but abandoned Praetoria (I've returned for a couple zone events).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Let me rephrase. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
"Loyalists" have never been particularly described as loyal to Emperor Cole, but more so to the regime and to the people of Praetoria. You can very much remain loyal to the fascist regime he has set up without necessarily wanting to serve the man, himself. That's actually what the final Morality mission for the Loyalists constitutes - the decision between bringing Cole down along with his entire government, or choosing to deal with his madness without upsetting the status quo.
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A Loyalist to me, stays in Praetoria and remains Loyal to Praetorian Earth. Not take up a mantle of Villain or Hero and travel to Primal Earth. I found that annoying. My opinion.
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I'm in this boat for the most part. I usually follow up a new TF with a readthrough on it from the wiki to catch anything I may have missed, but I won't hold up anyone during the game to read every bit of text. Nor do I get upset at inconsistancies or wierd 'deus ex machina' explanations (anyone who reads comics knows they're to be expected- it could be argued the Dev's do it to stay true to the medium they're imitating with their game |
Originally Posted by T-man
I tend to solo a good bit, and that's when I really get into the story. When I'm teaming it's like: hurry up and get to mish! lol
I really enjoy the stories though. Good stuff... |
)I don't play games for the sake of playing games. If the story/genre/feel doesn't appeal to me, I don't care how good it plays- I'm not interested. Conversely, I can tolerate a certain level of 'meh' if the story/genre/feel is something I like.
I picked up this game because of the world and genre. I continue to play it because of the quality of the game therein, and the friends I've made in it. I only play one other MMO because it's basically free and gives me my sword-n-sorcery fix every once in a while.
I don't begrudge players who don't care about story, but there's a part of me that can't understand why they bother playing if they don't; unless their desire is to just play a superhero, I can understand that. It's the people who play games to play games without regard to story or genre that I can't wrap my head around. I don't have any problems with them... I just don't get them.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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And I agree with this too. I have a handfull of characters stuck in their 20's waiting for more stuff to do in Praetoria. They were created with following the Praetorian storyline in mind and I really don't care about leveling them up 'til I can get to 50 as a member of the Resistance or Loyalists. These characters have no 'interest' in going to Primal Earth.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Let me rephrase.
A Loyalist to me, stays in Praetoria and remains Loyal to Praetorian Earth. Not take up a mantle of Villain or Hero and travel to Primal Earth. I found that annoying. My opinion. |
At least that gives me time to work on my 50's in the meantime and I don't feel any pressure to play them and level them up
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
FWIW I only care about the story that's presented to me as I play, as I get tired of stopping to read things. Especially in more recent content, where every single mission has a chapter's worth of text in it. Come on guys -- show, don't tell! If I can't get a feel for what I'm doing through objectives and random NPC chatter, it's not that interesting to me.
I made a few exceptions. For instance, I think the clone arcs redside are the best arcs in the entire game. I went back to replay them after the first time to actually read the story because what I gathered from the first few runs made me happy. The blood coral arc is also really nice, but I actually haven't stopped to read much of it. The only other arc I read was Bobcat's arc in Praetoria, because people told me it was good. I like the MKSF without having to stop and read everything.
Another exception which I wish I hadn't was trying to understand the STF. So I read it. And ended up more confused than I started off. The entire story behind going to get the Nexus of Thorns makes no sense whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Oddly, given how much attention I pay to lore and the mission stories, I'm not much of a comic superhero fan, either. I don't read comics, and I only got into this game in the first place because a couple close friends started playing it at launch. A couple-three weeks later, they talked me into my first MMO (formerly pretty much exclusively a shooter player and tabletop RPG'er). Almost seven years later...who'd have thought something in a genre I don't really care about would till have my attention and subscription money? |
Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
In fact, confession: I don't even like superheroes, supervillains or anything of this nature. Never been into the concept much.
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The stories and lore are a big part of the reason I'm still here, though. They're decently well written in their own right (and the incidental NPC dialog is as good as it gets in an online game...only Fallen Earth is as good). But they also have helped establish a world in which groups of roleplayers can expand on the canon lore in interesting ways. There's a good degree of creative freedom in that respect for players in this game. The groundbreaking character creator helps a lot, too. I'm still here not because of the gameplay,* but because of good friends and beloved characters...and a well-designed and written world for it all to take place in.
*I've never been a big fan of traditional MMO "tab targeting" combat systems - that's always been something a shooter player like me simply puts up with in order to enjoy the other aspects of MMO games. But now that at least a handful of MMOs have reticule aiming combat systems, it's even harder for me to tolerate tab targeting. I can stick with an older game that has it (like CoX), but it's pretty much a dealbreaker for me in a new game. It was one of the two reasons I elected not to sub to Rift after the beta (the other being that I'm even less into the high fantasy genre than I am the superhero one!).
"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."
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While I think that would be cool as well, I'll be perfectly content if I get several arcs and a few TF and/or Trials in which I am working for the Praetorians in their attempt to invade Primal.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Let me rephrase.
A Loyalist to me, stays in Praetoria and remains Loyal to Praetorian Earth. Not take up a mantle of Villain or Hero and travel to Primal Earth. I found that annoying. My opinion. |
The problem is that you'd still turn against Tyrant for the Incarnate system - that's the way it's been set up.
Praetoria was never planned, designed or set-up to be a new faction, or a 1-50 levelling experience - it has no special ATs, power set or zones, unlike blue and red side, and the storyline is written to strip away the lies of Tyrant, and get players out of his reach and into the normal game world by level 20.
If red side,. which is a genuine faction, with its own ATs, power sets and 1-50 levelling experience doesn't get its own Incarnate Trials, and has to tag along with the blue side, then the chances of the loyalists getting their own Incarnate Trials are close to zero.
The moment the Vanguard showed up, alogn with Arachnos and the Crusaders starting to high-five eachother, that was the end of any hope of a non co-op Incarnate Trials - by uniting the 2 player factions in the fight against Tyrant, the devs made it clear that Tyrant was supposed to be the enemy of everyone - kinda like we all fight the Rikti, no matter what alignment we have.
If Tyrant had made an alliance with Recluse - by planning to use him to open up a second front against Paragon City, and then destroy him later, while Recluse would be hoping to use Tyrant to defeat the Heroes of Paragon City, and then defeat the Praetorians himself - then that would be a big clue that the devs were intending to add some evil Incarnate Trials in the future.
And all the lore and other info we've gotten from I20 has just reinforced the idea that Tyrant is the bad guy that we all need to defeat to be able to face even greater threats in the future.
The devs have mentioned separate Incarnate atory arcs and missions as a potential alternative incarnate path - but those are still way more likely to be anti-Tyrant, because of the way the story has been set up. Incarnate story arcs and missions would certainly give an evil option for Incarnates, as they wouldn't need to be co-op - but the enemies would still very liekly be Tyrant and his loyalist thugs, because they're the major evil force we're all fighting against.
Resistance to Tyrant is the only option in GR, no matter what path you choose.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I know. I just want to help my master, Emperor Cole.
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which has been debated and complained about as limiting for months now|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The problem is that you'd still turn against Tyrant for the Incarnate system - that's the way it's been set up.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Praetoria was never planned, designed or set-up to be a new faction, or a 1-50 levelling experience - it has no special ATs, power set or zones, unlike blue and red side, and the storyline is written to strip away the lies of Tyrant, and get players out of his reach and into the normal game world by level 20.
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in an awesome 'choices' mode of play that... oh wait doesn't matter and to heck with those that actually enjoyed playing the choices that are no longer supported.
(Frankly, one of the worst game play decisions I think the Devs have made.)
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If red side,. which is a genuine faction, with its own ATs, power sets and 1-50 levelling experience doesn't get its own Incarnate Trials, and has to tag along with the blue side, then the chances of the loyalists getting their own Incarnate Trials are close to zero.
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And for the record, I think it is wrong for the primal villains too. Let the rogues and the vigilantes run with the heroes if they want. I have a couple that stick to villain merits for a reason and if they don't want to save States and the Fool Crew, they shouldn't have to.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl;3611908
The moment the Vanguard showed up, alogn with Arachnos and the Crusaders starting to high-five eachother, that was the end of any hope of a non co-op Incarnate Trials - by uniting the 2 player factions in the fight against Tyrant, the devs made it clear that Tyrant was supposed to be the enemy of [U everyone[/U] - kinda like we all fight the Rikti, no matter what alignment we have.
If Tyrant had made an alliance with Recluse - by planning to use him to open up a second front against Paragon City, and then destroy him later, while Recluse would be hoping to use Tyrant to defeat the Heroes of Paragon City, and then defeat the Praetorians himself - then that would be a big clue that the devs were intending to add some evil Incarnate Trials in the future. And all the lore and other info we've gotten from I20 has just reinforced the idea that Tyrant is the bad guy that we all need to defeat to be able to face even greater threats in the future. |
That doesn't mean we have to like it and "rah! rah!" about it.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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The way the game is set up, Tyrant is an enemy of Praetoria regardless of where you stand on the moral debate about freedom vs. security. Whether you remain loyal to Praetoria or side with Primal Earth is irrelevant, because neither side is interested in this war. The very war is Cole's baby, invading another dimension over a perceived threat when the people of that dimension are only ever a threat because of the perceived threat of Praetoria, which Tyrant started to begin with, afraid of their "influence." Neither side needs a war and neither side wants a war. No matter who you side with, you will end up opposing the war, be it to save Primal Earth from destruction or to keep Praetorian Earth out of a needless war.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
While I think that would be cool as well, I'll be perfectly content if I get several arcs and a few TF and/or Trials in which I am working for the Praetorians in their attempt to invade Primal.
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It's a lot like what Ghost Widow explains about her own situation:
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| Sometimes my Lord Recluse forgets that my spirit is bound to Arachnos, not necessarily to its leader. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm there, myself. I never really cared much for comic books and the often ridiculous heroes they portray, nor for the fat continuities they drag around after 40 years absurd plot twists and backstory. Really, any story that never ends is bound to turn into a tangled mess eventually. That, and I find spandex costumes to be completely ridiculous. It doesn't really matter how you colour and pattern it. It's still "just spandex" in my eyes.|
Originally Posted by Dollhouse
Oddly, given how much attention I pay to lore and the mission stories, I'm not much of a comic superhero fan, either. I don't read comics, and I only got into this game in the first place because a couple close friends started playing it at launch. A couple-three weeks later, they talked me into my first MMO (formerly pretty much exclusively a shooter player and tabletop RPG'er). Almost seven years later...who'd have thought something in a genre I don't really care about would till have my attention and subscription money?
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Now, of course, I know comic books are more than Silver Age goofiness, and City of Heroes is more accommodating than even that. That's kind of why I'm still here - because this is a perfect game for a creative mind, even if said mind isn't a fan of comic books. You don't have to be in order to enjoy the game and make use of its customization options. If anything, "it's like that in comic books" always seems to be used as an excuse for poor design. But the game can easily accommodate sci-fi themes, film noir themes, anime themes, cartoon themes a whole host of others.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Power Loyalists are "loyal" to their own status, and the apparatus of the State that maintains it. They are loyal to Tyrant as it is convenient for them to be so. Responsibility Loyalists are loyal to the State and the fiction that the State is necessary to preserve order and safety.| Sometimes people seem to forget that Loyalists are loyal to Praetoria, not necessarily to its leader. |
"Loyal to Praetoria" is meaningless.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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"Loyal to Praetoria" is an idea that encompasses a rather abstract concept, the desire to see the world continue to exist in the peace and prosperity that it's seeing right now. What you described is two pragmatic approaches to specific goals, and while those may be more prudent in a real world, fiction can afford quite a bit of leeway with idealism simply because otherwise implausible idealism can work in a fictional setting.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Power Loyalists are "loyal" to their own status, and the apparatus of the State that maintains it. They are loyal to Tyrant as it is convenient for them to be so. Responsibility Loyalists are loyal to the State and the fiction that the State is necessary to preserve order and safety.
"Loyal to Praetoria" is meaningless. |
"Loyal to Praetoria" is only as meaningless as "we fight for freedom" or "we fight for democracy." In other words, it's as meaningless as you want to read it.
And at the end of the day, you still sidestepped the entire point I wrote this - neither pragmatic position you described ascribes loyalty to Tyrant before all else.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I used to care about the story. Then the Devs broke it so now I'm "meh"
Thelonious Monk
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It's not just the personality cult - the entire way the system is set up is evil, from top to bottom - so it needs to be torn down.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
His cult of personality has brought nothing but damage to what is an otherwise perfect society.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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In character opinions are fine. But, the larger game play issues related to the story and player choices still stand.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's not just the personality cult - the entire way the system is set up is evil, from top to bottom - so it needs to be torn down.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Those are good points. Let me rephrase, I would like some arcs or TFs in which I am working for Emperor Cole. As far as Munki(my Praetorian) is concerned, Cole is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The way the game is set up, Tyrant is an enemy of Praetoria regardless of where you stand on the moral debate about freedom vs. security. Whether you remain loyal to Praetoria or side with Primal Earth is irrelevant, because neither side is interested in this war. The very war is Cole's baby, invading another dimension over a perceived threat when the people of that dimension are only ever a threat because of the perceived threat of Praetoria, which Tyrant started to begin with, afraid of their "influence." Neither side needs a war and neither side wants a war. No matter who you side with, you will end up opposing the war, be it to save Primal Earth from destruction or to keep Praetorian Earth out of a needless war.
It's a lot like what Ghost Widow explains about her own situation: Sometimes people seem to forget that Loyalists are loyal to Praetoria, not necessarily to its leader. If Tyrant seeks to bring Praetoria into doom and peril, then he is an enemy of Praetoria and nothing more. His cult of personality has brought nothing but damage to what is an otherwise perfect society. He and his Praetoris are the source of a lot of that world's problems, and Calvin Scott and his terrorists isn't helping matters any. |
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I will agree with you to the extent that I can see why you'd want this, but we're actually running into the opposite problem of what we had with CoV before.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Those are good points. Let me rephrase, I would like some arcs or TFs in which I am working for Emperor Cole. As far as Munki(my Praetorian) is concerned, Cole is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
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When City of Villains first came out, the writers seem to have expected us to want to serve Lord Recluse and be his eternal lackey with no ambition beyond that. Once some of us realised this, we were quite upset at this indignity. Now Praetorian Earth is doing the opposite - it's painting us as independent characters wanting out from under Cole, rather than wanting to serve him.
I'm not sure if there's a good middle ground to this, and I'm not sure how viable "options" would be here, considering he IS the de-facto bad guy. I'm just glad I'm not forced to serve him. I'd have been even happier if I weren't forced to serve either the Resistance or the Loyalists for the first 20 levels, but oh well.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I mentioned that earlier how funny it is - in CoV, some players complained about having to serve a crazed dictator and his evil organization - so the devs listened, and added that feedback into GR - and now some players are complaining that they're not allowed to serve the crazed dictator and his evil organization |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
When City of Villains first came out, the writers seem to have expected us to want to serve Lord Recluse and be his eternal lackey with no ambition beyond that. Once some of us realised this, we were quite upset at this indignity. Now Praetorian Earth is doing the opposite - it's painting us as independent characters wanting out from under Cole, rather than wanting to serve him.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Again, you continually ignore the actual point of the complaints.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I mentioned that earlier how funny it is - in CoV, some players complained about having to serve a crazed dictator and his evil organization - so the devs listened, and added that feedback into GR - and now some players are complaining that they're not allowed to serve the crazed dictator and his evil organization
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In CoV we were forced to serve an evil dictator without choice and shoe horned into a storyline that made little sense.
In GR we are given a choice to serve an evil dictator and then told that choice makes no difference and you will fight the evil dictator in a storyline that makes little sense.
Not all characters must follow the same path. That's all anyone is saying, or has ever said.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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And it’s this illusion of choice that has angered me more than any other lore decision in the game and just looks like a wasted opportunity. These days, alignment has about as much meaning as origin. Much was made about moral choices in Praetoria but regardless of what choices you do make by level 50 you WILL fight Praetoria whether you like it or not. It doesn’t matter if you want to support Cole or whether your character would thrive on the chaos and destruction of the war, you WILL fight against it whether you like it or not. And this bait and switch really brought me close to leaving. Some people like playing villains. We don’t all want to line up and join Vanguard like some reluctant hero. Co-op content has become the bane of this game, the last time villains got to do anything really villainous at level 50 was the LRSF. |
Originally Posted by Chyll
In GR we are given a choice to serve an evil dictator and then told that choice makes no difference and you will fight the evil dictator in a storyline that makes little sense.
Not all characters must follow the same path. That's all anyone is saying, or has ever said. |
So in some ways, I’m envious of people who don’t give two hoots about the story. It means they can get their fulfilment from whatever content is thrown at them, regardless of how badly disjointed from canon it is or whether it rides roughshod over character concepts. The game’s never been a paragon of storytelling, it can’t be. If we’re blunt about it, the story is there to string one fight to another. But the game used to strike a good balance between epic fights and a reasonably consistent story which made the player the centre of the action regardless of their character concept. These days, we’re all getting shoehorned down the same road. This is fine if you’re playing an Epic Archetype, less so if you give a damn about your character concept.
Hence why now I have to ignore story in order to progress. But it means that a part of the game I used to enjoy, immersing myself in the lore, is significantly absent. And this topic does come up regularly because for lore enthusiasts, something is broken. And just as some people would complain about how a mechanic or game system doesn’t work properly, this is just as important to people who draw their fun from the game’s backstory.
Story still matters; look at how people complained about how the Alpha slot originally opened. I guess the mistake we made back then was that we asked for story content to be attached to it. In hindsight, maybe we should have specifically asked for a good one.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Yeah, figures they pick exactly the wrong time to listen to the "I care about the story" crowd. I was perfectly fine with unlocking my Alpha slot with Vanguard merits. I don't need to devs to come up with a story explanation for game mechanics. Ever since the power proliferation nonsense, I'd rather they didn't.
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Originally Posted by Dante
Story still matters; look at how people complained about how the Alpha slot originally opened. I guess the mistake we made back then was that we asked for story content to be attached to it. In hindsight, maybe we should have specifically asked for a good one.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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That's my line of thinking, as well. The game's writers have often misstepped, but never more so than when they try to add lore justifications for purely meta-game systems. Adding a cape mission around "Capes at 20" was cute, but all it served to do was make people ask "Why the devil do I need the city's permission to hang a towel from my back? And it's just gotten worse and worse. Dr. Brainstorm messing with the origins of power to allow Brutes to use maces and axes was probably the worst example, though what we're seeing now may be even worse.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Yeah, figures they pick exactly the wrong time to listen to the "I care about the story" crowd. I was perfectly fine with unlocking my Alpha slot with Vanguard merits. I don't need to devs to come up with a story explanation for game mechanics. Ever since the power proliferation nonsense, I'd rather they didn't.
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Meta-game concepts should have some in-character explanation, yes, but they don't need entire novels written about them. I don't want to read the 12-chapter series about why my accuracy can't go over 95%, after all.
People asked for more story to run while achieving Incarnate status, but I'm not sure too many asked for story that EXPLAINED Incarnate stuatus. As Incarnates were originally conceived, you'd unlock them with Merits and then grind ITFs, Lady Greys and the Statesman and Recluse tasks till you turned blue in the face. I was one of the people who argued that this is a bad idea, that if you're going to be adding what constitutes a new level range, you need NEW content to go with it. I don't think adding new content that EXPLAINS it was necessary, however.
And, mind you, I actually liked Ramiel's story, but I don't like where it's gone since then.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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When I re-subbed and bought GR, I was all pumped to be a Loyalist. I rolled a new scrapper since soloing was my only option at that time. Around level 15, and after reading various bits of information, I discovered that remaining a Loyalist after level 20 was impossible. I abandoned that character. I all but abandoned Praetoria (I've returned for a couple zone events).