So, I did a Sutter TF today.
By
Arilou,
Posted on: 2011-04-23 18:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Except that it's not the case. It's explicitly noted that what's happening in Apex/Tin Mage is that Cole is using his connection with the Well to neuter the defenders/attackers. The IDF are certainly more powerful than eg. the PPD, but they're still operating on largely the same scale.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
I think the problem here is that the IDF are being used for endgame Incarnate content and are suppose to, at the moment, require Incarnates to be a match.
Then suddenly level 20 non-Incarnates have no such trouble. It's a kind of disconnect, you can't have the IDF being the endgame badass AND be matchable by a low level taskforce, it kind of peeves off Incarnate players since it makes them feel less powerful and doesn't do the enemy group justice. Now if they'd stuck to just using Skyraiders that would have been fine. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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That never really seemed like a flaw to me. In Sutter the biggest baddies you fight are from Powers Division, and not one of The Praetorians. We don't even know the mechanism behind the weakening of non-incarnates. The skies aren't red and smoky during any part of the Sutter TF, either.|
Originally Posted by Zortel
And a few things surprised me. if you're also late to doing it, like me, there may be some spoilers.
2: In the Apex/Tin Mage TF's, the IDF were presented as a force that defeated the Freedom Phalanx in the opening salvo, and took Incarnate-awakened heroes to even begin to match them as they attacked Paragon. In this TF, people from level 20-40 could face them with no problem. That seems a little odd to me. Does the alpha slot penalty for not having it unlocked still exist in the two Praetorian TF's? |
The Apex TF itself has more troubling plot problems. Like how the hell did Battle Maiden get warped in high enough to basically turn into a weapon of mass destruction?
If you really want Sutter-specific, the behavior in both TFs suggests that the invasion forces try to wait for civilians to mostly evacuate but then you also have battle-maiden hitting Steel Canyon from space and Skyway being destroyed in a matter of minutes, actions which could kill hundreds if not thousands.
My Going Rogue Trailer
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@Razoras
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Now that you mention it, the i13 Cimerora arcs were also pretty crappy, and were the first time to my recollection that a big deal was made of "we have new tech for this mission, check it out!" I guess the Reichsmann TFs were what really drove it home for me, after the debacle with letting a new guy who didn't bother to do any research at all write them, Akarist being a villain, new mechanics that were not fun at all and seemed to be introduced strictly for their own sake, and just being an overall and very visible trainwreck.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm not sure about the layoff portion of it. I'm going more with Eva's explanation, quite honestly. The VEAT arcs were the first time (for me) that it really hit - it's like you could tell when they were taking their time (up to, what, level 20 or so?) and when they just sort of shoveled crap together to call it an "arc" ("Here, have one mission!") and get them out the door.
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"The Apex TF itself has more troubling plot problems. Like how the hell did Battle Maiden get warped in high enough to basically turn into a weapon of mass destruction? "
Presumably they just opened a portal in orbit and dropped her.
"If you really want Sutter-specific, the behavior in both TFs suggests that the invasion forces try to wait for civilians to mostly evacuate but then you also have battle-maiden hitting Steel Canyon from space and Skyway being destroyed in a matter of minutes, actions which could kill hundreds if not thousands."
I suspect the keyword here is "mostly evacuate". The Praetorians are trying to avoid civilian casualties as far as possible, but they're not willing to compromise their military objectives.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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The same writiers are still at Paragon Studios.
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Given the impressive quality of the Going Rogue story arcs, the layoffs immediately after, and the dropoff we've seen after the fact (as well as a few issues before), well, I'm going to guess that these points are connected somehow...
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I've always wondered whether Neuron was written like this (since the devs had been called out on this behaviour for quite a while) as a sort of insider jab at their follow dev team. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Between that and the historic "ooh, shiny! We'll develop that furth... ooh, something new! We'll develop that fur.... ooh, bouncy ball! Ohhh, stick! Get the stick get the stick get the stick!" hyperactive puppy mentality (how are those PVP updates? AE arc selections for dev choice? How about the "We just want to work on new stuff, not change or update the old" attitude (almost direct quote, IIRC) from War Witch?) - yeah, I'm getting annoyed with the developers.
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The 'might as well have never been written about' storm has probably changed ideas a number of times from what it was originally going to be since they can't keep their focus on it and now it's just a Chekovs gun, it'll be whatever it needs to be to cover the gap in the 'all new city of Praetorian fighting' story arc.
Seriously I can understand crap like the Reichsman Taskforces being included with the good stuff that is Clone/Doppleganger arcs (despite what Eva and Venture say, they are good, ignore them, they're just being snobby) because of the person it was given to (a person who had zero knowledge of the backstory, wasn't given the time to learn how the world breathed and was hired just to write those two taskforces).
When I actually find myself starting to even slightly agree with Venture of all people (a person who I find pretentious at best and...well other things at worst) I know it's getting bad.
Now as I said when talking it over with Sam, Taskforces really aren't the place for great writing. The best Story Arcs are like graphic novels, they take their time, provide build up pacing and engage the person playing them solo.
Taskforces are your action film, you're there for explosions, punch ups and the occasional bit of witty banter or one liners, expecting too much out of them is like expecting Michael Bay to direct a film akin to the Seventh Seal, not going to happen.
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Origin of Power arc, Eva. Origin of Power. Though if you're just experiencing memory surpression, I understand.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Now that you mention it, the i13 Cimerora arcs were also pretty crappy
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I really do think people "Don't get" MMORPG design: The devs are, I suspect DELIBERATELY leaving plotlines unfinished so they'll have something to work with later on. They're not going to resolve anything.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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you're thinking of "Plot threads/hooks". Plot holes are a bit different.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
I really do think people "Don't get" MMORPG design: The devs are, I suspect DELIBERATELY leaving plotlines unfinished so they'll have something to work with later on. They're not going to resolve anything.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Having sat on the other side of the screen for several decades, I am well aware that you need to leave yourself room to work with for the future. However, (as usual) TVTropes has summed up the issue nicely in the entry for Kudzu Plot. They mention the "Claremont Coefficient" as a measure; the number of plot threads introduced divided by the number followed up on. If that ratio is over 1 in most or all episodes (Issues for us), you have a problem. I haven't actually sat down and worked out City's CC but I'm sure it's well over 1.| I really do think people "Don't get" MMORPG design: The devs are, I suspect DELIBERATELY leaving plotlines unfinished so they'll have something to work with later on. They're not going to resolve anything. |
See also The Chris Carter Effect.
This is also entirely separate from the general quality of the writing, which has been going downhill in these parts for rather a long time.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Oh yeah, I think I have that badge.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Origin of Power arc, Eva. Origin of Power. Though if you're just experiencing memory surpression, I understand.
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On a completely unrelated note, at one point I heard they were going to make a Terminator 3, whatever happened with that?
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I'm not liking the trend in TFs where you have to constantly watch where you are standing and then have to move quickly to avoid whatever is about to happen.
It's bad enough trying to take on 2 AVs at the same time with one constantly teleporting, plus handling reinforcements showing up. Then having to deal with air strikes on top of that? Not cool.
Same with the constant waves of ghouls when you are taking on (again) 2 AVs in the sewers. Is this really necessary? I could see taking on X number of waves and then have the AVs show up.
Having done this TF with the minimum of 4 players is an exercise in frustration. I'm not sure I would want to run this with lower level toons because of all the debt they would incur.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
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I know what people's story beef is with Kahn, but what's wrong with Barracuda?
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
crap like the Reichsman Taskforces
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I'm not liking the trend in TFs where you might as well set things on autopilot and go get a sandwich in the middle of an AV fight. Oh wait. We don't do that anymore.
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Originally Posted by UberRod
I'm not liking the trend in TFs where you have to constantly watch where you are standing and then have to move quickly to avoid whatever is about to happen.
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I'm not liking the trend of TFs. Full stop.
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Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
I'm not liking the trend in TFs where you might as well set things on autopilot and go get a sandwich in the middle of an AV fight. Oh wait. We don't do that anymore.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yes, anything even slightly challenging makes me, rage.|
Originally Posted by UberRod
It's bad enough trying to take on 2 AVs at the same time with one constantly teleporting, plus handling reinforcements showing up. Then having to deal with air strikes on top of that? Not cool.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm not liking
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Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
I'm not liking the trend in TFs where you might as well set things on autopilot and go get a sandwich in the middle of an AV fight. Oh wait. We don't do that anymore.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes, this is annoying. It's pointless to have added them, and it is pointless to do them.|
Originally Posted by Zortel
1: There were lots of optional things to get done, but from my position as a team member rather than a team leader, completing them didn't actually seem to do anything. No badges or anything. It threw me a little.
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Originally Posted by UberRod
I'm not liking the trend in TFs where you have to constantly watch where you are standing and then have to move quickly to avoid whatever is about to happen.
It's bad enough trying to take on 2 AVs at the same time with one constantly teleporting, plus handling reinforcements showing up. Then having to deal with air strikes on top of that? Not cool. |
Holds. Hold PriDur and kill him.
Ran this last night when we had a controller and dom with [Domination] up - he never even got off a single air strike.
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Originally Posted by UberRod
Same with the constant waves of ghouls when you are taking on (again) 2 AVs in the sewers. Is this really necessary? I could see taking on X number of waves and then have the AVs show up.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think the aerial atack mechanic from Sutter and Apex will show up in one or more Trials - it's too much fun not to - and having 20+ players bouncing around to avoid it will be evn more chaotic that 8
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Which Trial already has the air attack feature in it?
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Originally Posted by Chyll
I am glad you like the lazily repetitive design.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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What a terrible idea. A truly terrible, terrible idea.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think the aerial atack mechanic from Sutter and Apex will show up in one or more Trials - it's too much fun not to - and having 20+ players bouncing around to avoid it will be evn more chaotic that 8
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It is the same mechanic as Apex whether you call it an airstrike or nanostrikes of doom or pixie dusting (as has been pointed out - heck the entire story line is a repackaging of Apex, as was also pointed out).|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Which Trial already has the air attack feature in it?
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And that is fine, but it is lazy. I have no trouble pointing it out even as jump in and enjoy playing the TF.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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You'd prefer an escort phase for a Trial? |
Originally Posted by Clouded
What a terrible idea. A truly terrible, terrible idea.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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How about each trial brings it's own unique and fun flair rather than just repurposing something that has already been used twice in the last couple of issues. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You'd prefer an escort phase for a Trial?
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Between that and the historic "ooh, shiny! We'll develop that furth... ooh, something new! We'll develop that fur.... ooh, bouncy ball! Ohhh, stick! Get the stick get the stick get the stick!" hyperactive puppy mentality (how are those PVP updates? AE arc selections for dev choice? How about the "We just want to work on new stuff, not change or update the old" attitude (almost direct quote, IIRC) from War Witch?) - yeah, I'm getting annoyed with the developers.
You pretty much have to approach the game as a "monster of the week" show now, not expecting anything to really tie into anything else (and having it be really rare when it does.) Sort of early X-files that handwaves vaguely at some plot or other because "the government knows things!" as opposed to, say, Babylon 5 that was written with a multi-year overarching plot.
And given that, I'm not surprised there *isn't* more complaint about the "Know what, screw it, farm these" design of the trials. *shrug*
(And having run Sutter, I shake my head at a group of 20s really doing much vs the Infinite Ghoul-bombs. I like the ships, though I have to wonder "Why did they tell the war walkers to land nicely and not just slam through the hulls? those things can fly and aren't light." Though it'd also be nice if they had *guns* instead of concrete poles in their turrets.)