Great start to the season I thought. Even if there were no aliens, the events kicking off the series is intriguing.
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What if they're both each other's mom?|
Originally Posted by Coin
Gods, I love this show, no other gets people talking possibilities as much as Doctor Who does
 Also, no one else notice that it wasn't just Amy who felt sickness, so did River...... |
-np
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Originally Posted by Innovator
That's right, Borusa was the one seeking eternal regenerations, and the Master joined seeking the same for himself.
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Its been awhile since Ive watched The Five Doctors, but wasnt Borusa seeking Immortality without Regenerating so that his current regeneration could remain Lord President of Gallifrey throughout all eternity?
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Conceivably, the Doctor could return at a later time to the Library planet where River's uploaded consciousness resides in its central computer after the events of The Forest of the Dead, but that would, I suspect, miss out on the tragedy that's gathering momentum this season.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
My friend has a theory that since we still haven't seen their penultimate meeting, that'll actually be the second-to-last meeting for the both of them. They'll have one "last" time together, where they both completely know each other.
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As River puts it:
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| When I first met the Doctor, a long long time ago, he knew all about me. Think about that. Impressionable young girl, suddenly this man just drops out of the sky. He's clever and mad and wonderful, and knows every last thing about her. Imagine what that does to a girl. {...} Trouble is, it's all back to front. My past is his future. We're travelling in opposite directions. Every time we meet, I know him more, he knows me less. I live for the days when I see him. But I know that every time I do, I'm one step further away. The day's coming when I'll look into that man's eyes, my Doctor, and he won't have the faintest idea who I am. And I think it's going to kill me. |
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In the Library episodes, she makes a mention that the previous meeting, the Doctor seemed to know their time together was close to ending in retrospect, So that meeting hasn't occured yet, so yes I think there will be a meeting where they will both know each other. And as noted, she isn't dead, dead, she still exists in the Library, so it is possible for the Doctor to visit her, or maybe even bring her back to life, also as a side note, if it ever came time for them to end the series, they could always have the Doctor park the Tardis in the Library, and have him enter the Library Matrix
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Conceivably, the Doctor could return at a later time to the Library planet where River's uploaded consciousness resides in its central computer after the events of The Forest of the Dead, but that would, I suspect, miss out on the tragedy that's gathering momentum this season.
As River puts it: Moffat is clearly playing for high stakes for this season as River gets less secure in her "spoilers" advantage over the Doctor and he begins to show the strains of keeping his knowledge her death a secret from her. |
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If I was the writer here is what I would make the solution to the problem. The Silent's time ship will be destroyed by their actions undoing all the following events in his life, probably because they were using some sort of paradox engine. The cost is that River Song will never live her life with "The Doctor".|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
There's a few things to note from this story:
1) The Doctor is expecting the 'Impossible Astronaut' and ensures that they don't interfere with what happens. 2)200 years of his life are unaccounted for. This means that the Doctor that Rory, Amy and River meet has lived 200 years into the present Doctor's future. 3)The TARDIS someone is building is indeed from the Lodger and the being within it does what The Silent do; they absorb the knowledge and essence of a person and also make them not acknowledge their existence. The Doctor noted that this form of TARDIS was using a perception filter. 4)The Doctor's future self has engineered these events to happen and requires the American ex-FBI to be a part of it. 5) Aren't the spacesuits ever so reminiscent of the Vashta Nerada from when Ten meets River inititally? The pieces of the puzzle are there, and I think they've been laid ever since the Library episode, really. It could be a temporal loop, or an attempt to get around a temporal loop. And we still don't know what happens on the Moon. I'm looking forward to the second part of this, but I just know Moffat will have the mid-season cliffhanger be a doozy...I suspect it'll end with the Doctor's death.... S. |
On a tangent. If she is married to The Doctor and her last name is Song and she is the child of Rory and Amy then she somewhere changed her last name to Song. So maybe The Doctor's name as they are hinting at has something to do with Song?
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Except that the Doctor already knows that in his future, he's going to give her his updated sonic screwdriver (which he presumably still has in his possession) and show up at a particular date (which he should be able to deduce after enough encounters), so he can still travel in time to that future event (when he doesn't know her as well as he did the first time she met him) but reappear in her past later in his timeline (when she doesn't know him as well as the first time he met her).|
Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica
In the Library episodes, she makes a mention that the previous meeting, the Doctor seemed to know their time together was close to ending in retrospect, So that meeting hasn't occured yet, so yes I think there will be a meeting where they will both know each other.
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It looks as though the best the Doctor and River can expect is to encounter each other at some point when they're sufficiently acquainted with one another that they don't have to keep trying to impress each other with one-upmanship.
Moffat is really making my head hurt, and it's only the first episode this season.
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Actually (having watched “The Five Doctors” again this morning), they mentioned Rassilon having "perpetual bodily regeneration". Obviously, Rassilon still able to get a face lift from his appearance in "The Five Doctors" and when he returns as Timothy Dalton.
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Originally Posted by Hero_of_Steel
It’s been awhile since I’ve watched “The Five Doctors”, but wasn’t Borusa seeking Immortality without Regenerating so that his current regeneration could remain Lord President of Gallifrey throughout all eternity?
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I do remember on one episode (I forget which), Tennant mentioning that the Time Lords were constantly getting killed then regenerating to fight again during the Time War as if it were a continual thing. So I assumed that meant that the limit for regeneration was removed at that time. With later revealing that Rassilon was revived to lead the Time War, its not a big stretch to put 2 and 2 together.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Indeed, it was a physical limitation set in place. Rassilon had the power to make such defining rules. Still, there are any number of ways to explain getting around such a limitation. Especially for someone clever enough to have thwarted both Rassilon and Omega in his lifetime.
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In "The Five Doctors" they do mention that Rassilon's immortality was something he discovered therefore making it seem the limit is not something imposed.
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Hmmm....you might be on to something.
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Originally Posted by SuperOz
5) Aren't the spacesuits ever so reminiscent of the Vashta Nerada from when Ten meets River inititally?
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I didn't forget them. I just don't really count them as regular companions, especially Jack.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You apparently forgot this fella.
 And this fella.  |
Now, my understanding is that River has images of each of the Doctor's regenerations. I wonder if she also knows the order that he went through them, or if they are just randomly assembled images. Also, the thing that confuses me a bit is that she spoke of her final encounter with the Doctor and the "date" (for lack of a better word) that they went on. If they are meeting each other in reverse order, that meeting should have been their last meeting before the library from her perception and their next meeting after the library from his perception, no?
Est sularis oth Mithas
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Originally Posted by Innovator
Actually (having watched The Five Doctors again this morning), they mentioned Rassilon having "perpetual bodily regeneration". Obviously, Rassilon still able to get a face lift from his appearance in "The Five Doctors" and when he returns as Timothy Dalton.
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Ahh, thanks for the info.
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That's possible, but Amy being pregnant and River being in the same place should cause a paradox. Which is possible...the question is what the time machine is being built for, and by whom. We now know it exists in 1969 and 2010. So it's been around a while too....and maybe in more than just two locations. |
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
If I was the writer here is what I would make the solution to the problem. The Silent's time ship will be destroyed by their actions undoing all the following events in his life, probably because they were using some sort of paradox engine. The cost is that River Song will never live her life with "The Doctor".
On a tangent. If she is married to The Doctor and her last name is Song and she is the child of Rory and Amy then she somewhere changed her last name to Song. So maybe The Doctor's name as they are hinting at has something to do with Song? |
Not unlike the present and future Doctor.
S.
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Moffat loves his visual coda for things...like the cracks everywhere when Silence was going to fall and it kind of did. And the diary book was left on the library planet when River died. It's possible that the future Doctor does know what's going to happen because he remembers it happening to his past self. I cite his Time Crash special featuring Five and Ten as evidence. Ten only knows what to do because he remembers Five watching him doing that. |
Originally Posted by Innovator
Hmmm....you might be on to something.
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I suspect Eleven will know what to do because future Eleven has already lived it and solved it. In fact, I'll go a step further and say that future Eleven could be a paradox that needs to be solved by past Eleven putting events in motion.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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Remember that they did this again in the last Red Nose Day Special.|
Originally Posted by SuperOz
I cite his Time Crash special featuring Five and Ten as evidence. Ten only knows what to do because he remembers Five watching him doing that.
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Eleven only knew which switch to pull cos he tells himself.
-np
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Well that's because the only Doctor who could tell him which was the right switch to throw was the one that didn't blow up the TARDIS because he threw the wrong one. That's why it was important to send Amy and Rory into the TARDIS before he throws the switch so they would always be safe.
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There's a lot of time travel no-no's happening now (which is fine with me because this is science fantasy, not science fiction). But I don't want to see them overused.
You get out of a jam because your future you shows up to tell you how to get out of the jam. Then, once out of the jam, you go back in time to tell yourself how to get out of the jam you were in order to prevent a paradox. Well, umm... there's still the paradox of reversing cause and effect in order to create the loop in the first place.
It's like when the Doctor appeared to Rory to set in motion how to get him out of the Pandoricon. Once freed, he goes back in time to Rory to set in motion how to get himself out of the Pandoricon.
The problem with this reverse cause and effect loop is that you might as well use it for every jam you're in. About to be dropped in a volcano? Wait for your future self to show up to save you. Then, once saved, go back in time and save yourself. Repeat for all jams.
The Doctorverse needs some sort of rule that limits that ego ex machina.
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They do at least did, no Time Lord is allowed to enter a time span and location vicinity his past self is currently in, exceptions are usually due to a weird time misshap, use of a time scoop, and the Pandorica box.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The Doctorverse needs some sort of rule that limits that ego ex machina.
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Yes it generally requires something exceptional to allow a Time Lord to interfere with his/her own timeline. |
Originally Posted by Innovator
They do at least did, no Time Lord is allowed to enter a time span and location vicinity his past self is currently in, exceptions are usually due to a weird time misshap, use of a time scoop, and the Pandorica box.
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I rather expect that this sort of thing is what The Doctor is setting up here. And yes I think the older Doctor is playing them all for some greater scheme.
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I don't mind it too much myself, at least as long as they don't use it all the time. I look at it this way for these reasons:|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
You get out of a jam because your future you shows up to tell you how to get out of the jam. Then, once out of the jam, you go back in time to tell yourself how to get out of the jam you were in order to prevent a paradox. Well, umm... there's still the paradox of reversing cause and effect in order to create the loop in the first place.
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1) Take a good long look at my avatar. Learn it's lesson. It tells us humans don't know a whole lot about how time "actually works". (now if only Tennant's Doctor could have thought of a good way to explain to Sally in under 30 seconds!)
2) TimeLords obviously would know more than we do so they can occasionally "violate" what would seem to be "hard and fast rules".
3) It's made for some great script moments and it makes for amusing internet arguments from people (not including you) who need to remember the MST3K mantra.
I liked this episode pretty well. But it was so dark, and had way too many handheld cam shots. It seemed more like an episode of Torchwood than Dr. Who.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I liked this episode pretty well. But it was so dark, and had way too many handheld cam shots. It seemed more like an episode of Torchwood than Dr. Who.
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I don't remember any handheld cam shots...and that's surprising since I hate them with a passion(not saying they weren't there)....then again maybe I was just happy to see new Doctor Who (got to see the "Christmas Carol" episode too which was new to me
).
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Yeah, I actually liked the Christmas Carol episode more than the premiere |
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
I don't remember any handheld cam shots...and that's surprising since I hate them with a passion(not saying they weren't there)....then again maybe I was just happy to see new Doctor Who (got to see the "Christmas Carol" episode too which was new to me
). |
Still, glad to see the Doc back on the job. The causal loops sorta bother me in retrospect after various episodes, but while I'm watching it's just turn-your-brain-off fun for 40-odd minutes. For all the flaws, Moffat's a better writer than Davies, IMO. (Which came as no surprise to me, because Coupling -- though crude and very silly -- really did have a lot of very witty dialogue.)
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Did anyone else notice that father and son are playing Everett Canton Deleware III? I thought that was a clever twist of casting. Almost as clever as Karen Gillan's cousin playing the young Amelia last year.
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Gods, I love this show, no other gets people talking possibilities as much as Doctor Who does
Also, no one else notice that it wasn't just Amy who felt sickness, so did River......
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