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Have you tried playing Mercs or Ninjas lately?|
Originally Posted by Silas
I'd say if anything was "extraordinarily derp" it would be the statement that 2 MM primaries are "almost entirely useless".
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Sure, solo, they may scrounge through OK, they might even survive fine on a small team, but get them in TF's or anything that has more than yellows and the occasional orange, and, for instance, my Mercs/Pain is suddenly outputting as much damage as a defender might if they used only their first and second attacks on auto-fire, if even that.
I stood there in the middle of this nice team of well-rounded people, with auto-heal on, and I was being out-healed by a controller, out-damaged by a defender, and a blaster had more survivability than I did at that time.
Quote:
1. I said bots/traps. Pay attention.|
Originally Posted by Agent
Except they really do.
The fact that Bots/FF is such a great class selection is like saying that a Fire/Fire tank is too good in AE Fire farms. |
2. I didn't say bots/traps was OP in a specific situation. I said it's OP everywhere, so your comparison is invalid. Pay attention.
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Originally Posted by Agent
Selectively, if you look at MM with ONLY THAT CLASS, you could assume that MM might just be a bit OP, sure.
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I said that bots/traps is OP. Pretty much all variations of bots, thugs, traps, and dark are a bit over the top. The rest of masterminds sit about where I'd expect in the balance of the game.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Agent
But look at Ninjas, or Mercs, even as you mentioned - you're assuming that the devs are idiots and going to just nerf Bots and Thugs because they arn't underpowered and leave Ninjas and Mercs as they are.
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The problem here is that ninjas and mercs are not underpowered. They're pretty well balanced. Ninjas and mercs are not the outliers here, bots and thugs are.
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Originally Posted by Agent
The fact that two whole primaries with MMs are almost entirely useless is extraordinarily derp.
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Originally Posted by Agent
I stood there in the middle of this nice team of well-rounded people, with auto-heal on, and I was being out-healed by a controller, out-damaged by a defender, and a blaster had more survivability than I did at that time.
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Yes, your heals are less than a controller's, but your PBAoE heal hits seven targets as opposed to just one if you're solo. And your single target heal can be used solo. How else could you balance that?
Your damage is not less than a defender's. If it is, that's most certainly a build problem and not the fault of your powers.
You certainly have no less survivability than a blaster. Not only do you have the ability to heal yourself, you have 75% resistance to everything if you leverage bodyguard mode. Even more while your buffs are active.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
MMs as an archetype are fine. I have four of the little blighters. However I will agree that certain primaries do need dev attention. Mercs in particular. Bizarre pet AI, horrid recharge on pet powers, highly resisted damage type, and Serum is utterly atrocious.
----- Union's finest underachiever -----
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MM are poweful AT, none can say other wise, but of all AT they are the most static of all in term of changes over the year. Since CoV when out MM have only got 2 primary thug and Demons. While Other get like 4 news primarys.
The fact is that MM are the hardest AT to deal/modife of all, Devs are always avoid looking at MM,thank God that at least they have change the AI and attacks powers over the years fixing some bugs; but we really need to be look at as a whole!!! not just as Bots/x...
Hell, They should make IO sets affect the pets too. MM very well get half the benefit for IO's because the MM strenge in his Pets,and his pets don't get affected, Atleast incarnation affect then.
Finally, MM pets are balance around lv +0 not vs lv+4. Pets are "suppose" to do as expecting while fighting enemies of 1-2 lv of difference. There no way any MM is performing as well they do(no lv shift account) while figthing lv 54.
TL;DR
Ninjas and Merc are part of MM AT!!
Ninjas and Merc Need Buff!!
MM need Buff!!
I want /Fire stalker. Because nothing says stealth like dumping a can of gasoline on yourself and lighting a match. -Morac
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No, this is a logical fallacy. You are using a specific case and applying it to the general. No matter how you justify it in your mind, it is not a logical conclusion you can reacy.
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Originally Posted by Yorukira
TL;DR
Ninjas and Merc are part of MM AT!! Ninjas and Merc Need Buff!! MM need Buff!! |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Your on denial...
I say that a Fix/Buff on Ninjas and merc is a BUFF to MM.
I want /Fire stalker. Because nothing says stealth like dumping a can of gasoline on yourself and lighting a match. -Morac
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no, a fix/buff to ninjas and mercs is a fix/buff to NINJAS and MERCS not a buff to MMs in general. boosting tier 1 and 2 pets up to the players level would be a buff to MMs. if you have a problem with certain sets in a specific AT, ask the devs to look at those specific sets, not the entire AT. i have a lvl 50 bots/traps MM and it doesn't need any help at all. only certain parts of the MM sets need looking at, try limiting your cries for help to just those part.
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Originally Posted by Yorukira
Your on denial...
I say that a Fix/Buff on Ninjas and merc is a BUFF to MM. |
MMs on the whole don't need buffed at all. If they did then ALL the sets would be underperforming. I have nearly a dozen in different flavors and most work fine.
Some of the MM SETS need looked at (*glares at Poison*) and the AI needs tweaked (*goans over melee pets standing at range, range pets racing into melee, buffer pets that don't buff and so on).
Ok, so Bot/Traps is cool. How much did you spend on the IOs to softcap the build? Would you run as fast and well on SOs or common IOs because of course the Market and Inventions are 'optional.'
MMs are taking a beating, literally, in the Trials because there is a disproportionate level of AoE in them. This is because there might be a dozen or more people on one target. But in a mob each character only gets hit once. If an AoE hits an MM and his pets then he's being hit for bonus damage.
The players are smart enough to make it work but even if the pets are strong enough (and only datamining will tell) the various flaws in the AT and the harshness of the AoE in the Trials tips the balance IMHO.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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Bots/traps can softcap to s/l on SOs. Include energy if you take weave and combat jumping.
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Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
Ok, so Bot/Traps is cool. How much did you spend on the IOs to softcap the build? Would you run as fast and well on SOs or common IOs because of course the Market and Inventions are 'optional.'
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Bots/traps can softcap to s/l on SOs. Include energy if you take weave and combat jumping.
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I must be doing something wrong with Mids then. Could you post a build please?
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
Quote:
FFG is 15.5% defense ED capped|
Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
I must be doing something wrong with Mids then. Could you post a build please?
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Protector Bot is 7.5% unslotted (you can defense slot them but the loss of accuracy or damage can hurt on an SO build)
Scorpion Shield or Frozen armor are 21% S/L defense if ED capped
That gets you to 44% S/L defense. Taking any other defense power (Combat Jumping, Hover or Maneuvers) or putting a single Defense SO into Protector pots puts you at the soft cap.
You can actually get to about 41% on everything except psi with just SOs if you take FFG, Protector Bots, CJ, Maneuvers and Weave and ED cap all of them but that requires more in the way of build sacrifices.
When did you make this Ninja Dark and show us the build..
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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How are MMs taking extra damage from AoEs? If they are in bodyguard mode, they are actually taking LESS damage then other ATs, as their pets are renewable resources. While th pets take (and deal) extra damage, they also draw attention away from teammates, which means that 1 MM can basically play meat shield for an entire team. |
Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
MMs are taking a beating, literally, in the Trials because there is a disproportionate level of AoE in them. This is because there might be a dozen or more people on one target. But in a mob each character only gets hit once. If an AoE hits an MM and his pets then he's being hit for bonus damage.
The players are smart enough to make it work but even if the pets are strong enough (and only datamining will tell) the various flaws in the AT and the harshness of the AoE in the Trials tips the balance IMHO. |
While AoEs do hurt, in most leagues, you have stacked leadership powers, AoE +def, and massive healing going on (in addition to destiny powers) so if your losing pets half as often as you say you are, then YOUR doing it wrong, and its not a fault of the AT itself.
Remember that old saying? Its not that MMs sucked, its that the players that play MMs suck, as the learning curve is VERY steep, and unless you play, and build correctly, you can actually hurt your team a lot more then you help.
One thing certainly DOES need to be (re)buffed with MM's. The crappy, terrible, awful non demon pet AI Gamewide. EVERYTHING rushes enemies now, if ranged pets stayed at range, they'ed be fine, but they rush into melee, so they die immediately. Voltaic Sentinel does this, Gun drone does this etc etc. There were pets that were not designed to handle melee range and they're getting stomped.
As for ninja's, yea, they might has well have not given them defense in the first place to have numbers that are so ridiculously low and no 'support' class like thugs/bots/demons have. Melee range needs armor, right now all mm's are melee range due to borked demon AI except demons, and no t1/t2 pets can handle that.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
- Lore Evasion: +50% def aoe, +25% resist to all
Can I see a show of hands from everyone who believes this should be built into Mastermind Supremacy when on Incarnate Trials?
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Masterminds..overpowered? Seriously? I'd like some proof of this statement, and proof that any Mastermind doing anything exceptional can't be done(and better) by a Ill/Rad Controller, a Mind/Fire Dom, or a DM/Shield Scrapper. There are far more combinations than that. On these Incarnate trials, in particular, what you have is a bunch of mindless followers who get swarmed/annihilated by just basic spawns; and that's not even taking into consideration what the AVs, or unresistable damage does to them.
I'm still..in shock of the claim that they're overpowered. Bots/Traps, or whatever you can think up. Does that take into consideration that a Bots/Traps will never, ever, be as effective with SO's, as some of the other combinations that have been suggested? Does that also take into consideration that the "overpowered-ness" argument bears absolutely no weight in PvP, either? The only way that statement can even be perceived as true is if you're talking about enemy AI or scripting, which lets you launch horde after horde of follower at the AV, without the AV relentlessly pursuing the Mastermind. And that doesn't make the Mastermind overpowered--nor does it make a person using the tether for Lord Recluse on the STF overpowered, in that he can avoid LR with that method.
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You clearly have no experience with bots/traps. On SOs, it can solo AVs and x8 missions. Tell me another combo that can do that.
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Originally Posted by GI Justice
I'm still..in shock of the claim that they're overpowered. Bots/Traps, or whatever you can think up. Does that take into consideration that a Bots/Traps will never, ever, be as effective with SO's, as some of the other combinations that have been suggested?
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
You really have no idea what a bot/traps can do do you? Or heck, any MM combination for that matter. Ill/rad is good for single targets. 3 targets max. Anything more, then the decoys can't hold aggro on it, and the player dies. A bot/traps, really has no limits. |
Originally Posted by GI Justice
Masterminds..overpowered? Seriously? I'd like some proof of this statement, and proof that any Mastermind doing anything exceptional can't be done(and better) by a Ill/Rad Controller, a Mind/Fire Dom, or a DM/Shield Scrapper. There are far more combinations than that. On these Incarnate trials, in particular, what you have is a bunch of mindless followers who get swarmed/annihilated by just basic spawns; and that's not even taking into consideration what the AVs, or unresistable damage does to them.
I'm still..in shock of the claim that they're overpowered. Bots/Traps, or whatever you can think up. Does that take into consideration that a Bots/Traps will never, ever, be as effective with SO's, as some of the other combinations that have been suggested? Does that also take into consideration that the "overpowered-ness" argument bears absolutely no weight in PvP, either? The only way that statement can even be perceived as true is if you're talking about enemy AI or scripting, which lets you launch horde after horde of follower at the AV, without the AV relentlessly pursuing the Mastermind. And that doesn't make the Mastermind overpowered--nor does it make a person using the tether for Lord Recluse on the STF overpowered, in that he can avoid LR with that method. |
Here, let me know you. The first video was done on SOs. No IOs at all.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7923834396178#
Quality isn't the best, but hey, there you have it.
Lets see, there is this -> http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7941000579334# a bot/traps MM, and a grav/nrg dominator duo-ing the ITF back in i12 (or was it 13).. (shortly after it hit live)
Mind/fire has all its power in confuse, without form of 'control' it really can't solo a single thing. And it doesn't get any experience for its 'solo-ing' as it uses confused mobs to do all the heavy lifting.
DM/Shield is just laughable at best. While it packs a decent amount of SINGLE TARGET damage, it can't keep up on pure AoE damage that a bot/traps (or again, any MM combo) can deal. Look over those scrapper threads again, my bot/traps can out damage any DM/shield (at least in i19)
Now, ill/cold is in the same boat ill/rad is, awesome single target DPS, but as this game is based on AoE carnage, single target doesn't do you a whole lot of good.
OK!
I get it, Bots/Traps are the Chuck Norris of MM and all other AT in this game.
If you want to keep using your bots/traps as the example of all other Powerset MM have, Can we get all other set to do equally good too?
Can I have BUff/Heal/ and a complete chain attack for my other no robots MM too(That stay safe away for Melee.AoE)?
Bots are a excellent
Traps are excellent
That bots/traps is a Excelent combo, but mainly b/c they are already great! That dosen't mean we shouldn't get somekind of buff to the other powers with alot of probelms.
Run a incarnation trial with Robot/trick arrow or Ninja/trap and try to say that is equally good,that you don't need buff, and that you have as much fun like every other MM. Believe me, /traps isn't fun when you BG get one shot and you are alone next to 15 lv54 AoE ...
I want /Fire stalker. Because nothing says stealth like dumping a can of gasoline on yourself and lighting a match. -Morac
Quote:
Demon/thermal is awesome too.. Wanna know another awesome mastermind sets?|
Originally Posted by Yorukira
OK!
I get it, Bots/Traps are the Chuck Norris of MM and all other AT in this game. If you want to keep using your bots/traps as the example of all other Powerset MM have, Can we get all other set to do equally good too? Can I have BUff/Heal/ and a complete chain attack for my other no robots MM too(That stay safe away for Melee.AoE)? Bots are a excellent Traps are excellent That bots/traps is a Excelent combo, but mainly b/c they are already great! That dosen't mean we shouldn't get somekind of buff to the other powers with alot of probelms. Run a incarnation trial with Robot/trick arrow or Ninja/trap and try to say that is equally good,that you don't need buff, and that you have as much fun like every other MM. Believe me, /traps isn't fun when you BG get one shot and you are alone next to 15 lv54 AoE ... |
*/*
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Merc/Poison? or Merc/TA|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Demon/thermal is awesome too.. Wanna know another awesome mastermind sets?
*/* |
Wait no that's not awesome, no mitigation aside from holds means constant dead pets, it is a unique combo but not an awesome one
What about
Merc/Force Field?
Wait no that's not awesome, all mitigation means pets are your only damage source and knockdown your only control
What about
Ninja/Pain or Robots Pain?
Wait no, having a defense based pet class with heals is not useful because pets are always one shotted
There's lots of MM combo's that don't stack up because not all the MM combo's mesh well with each other, unlike other AT's you have to make sure your pets stay alive because without them your a damage debuffed defender and there are several MM sets that are very poor at keep your pets alive. Only Thugs and Robots are hassle free pet classes that can be paired with something like Trick Arrow or Poison and look after them selves (And then only with IO support)
Jorrus 50 MercPoison Mastermind / Samuel Geary 50 Warshade/Triform
Relenia 50 DB/Will Scrapper / Jonas Geary 50 Cold/Storm Controller
'They don't call it a "Free Fire Zone" because it's filled with kittens and butterflies"-Obsidius
Quote:
Here's a little secret. You know that Tactics power that practically every MM takes? It protects against confusion. So if you take that, the BAF escapees won't confuse your pets!|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Yeah lets dont buff masterminds because their pets cant be killed by mobs with no attacks.
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Also, Ninja aren't as worthless on BAF as people keep saying. My Ninja/TA had to replace a total of 2 genin on 3 straight BAF runs.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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From looking back at some posts I can see your Ninja Dark is about 3 years old. I also know you said it was one of your best toons or something in that vein. Either way you were raving about how good it was. |
Originally Posted by plainguy
When did you make this Ninja Dark and show us the build..
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1. How do we know your build just doesn't suck. Maybe you have 4 accuracy's slotted in each pet. Maybe you have every travel power.
2. After 3 years of playing this toon, you just now you noticed how crappy melee mastermind pets are ?
3. I think every Arch Type has a ninja poison set. Blaster have AR Dev for example. Your just not picking that set if your looking for maximum OWNAGE.
4. That is the big issue with Dark as I always comment. You relying on a -ToHit Deuff toggle to get your defenses. If the toggles drops or is resisted ( yes it can be resisted and probably is by those AV ) you just lost a BIG part of your defenses for yourself and your pets.
5. There is no way in the world the Devs are going to revamp Melee Pets defenses to make them more survivable during AV fights. They can't or won't fix the Pet AI issues and it's over 12 months at least and people expect them to fix Melee pets. Just not gonna happen.
6. Just like with other sets and Arch Types I would love if all my toons could solo 4/8 settings. But they can't. I would like all my toons to solo AV's and GMs, but they can't.. Maybe Ninja Dark might be one of those sets that just can't do what you want it to do.
7. Between Then ( 3 years ago ) and now did you by chance make a Robot Traps that everyone is mentioning is so Leet ?
Here is the deal, I get what your say. Anytime I see a AR Device thread I chime in and I'm ready to duke it out with whomever doesn't agree that AR paired with Device needs some fixing. But after 7 years I also get there is a VERY SLIM chance of anything actually getting done in that department. The Devs just are not looking at stuff like that. Those are the things that they stumble upon while fixing something else. As much as I do believe that they should fix everything old before jumping on something new they don't. The Dev mind set as it appears to me is every arch type has a lemon, but there is enough for the player to pick from or sort of eventually give up and try. So yea they know Poison sucks, but there are other choices to pick. Take one of those and be happy. Yea AR paired with Device sucks. Take something else other then Device and be happy and move on.
Otherwise accept the limitations of the set and deal with it. My AR Dev isn't exactly what I wanted, but without a doubt after bending and following some recommendations he is much, much better then he was.
I Respeced my Robot Traps numerous times just to test out other epics. To ME Oppressive Gloom is GREAT. The DPS from Oppressive Gloom is spread out across everyone and me and the pets all get 1 point of damage. Solo without pets I am getting 15 points of damage. Having Triage beacon up without pets nullifies the DPS issue. Do I wish maybe I had fire ball now because of the Drop rate issue for MM in the incarnate missions.. Yes, but I just am not playing my MM until the drop rate is fixed. IF it is never fixed, well then I have no choice but eventually give in and drag along just to get the powers slotted up to T3 at least. As much as I would like to slot a T4 for the level bump. Its no big deal really, I will EVENTUALLY get it.
I am sure if you sat down with the Devs they would clearly say that certain sets were good back in the days or just not one of there shining moments. But they did do such and such which was a great hit. I think instead of upsetting so many other people that like a set the way it is, they would rather just make up a new set and make it what they really expected that old set to be. I really do think Traps is the Device replacement.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
You can stop with the snide 'Pay Attention' stuff, because I'm trying to be at least a little civil here.|
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
Here's a little secret. You know that Tactics power that practically every MM takes? It protects against confusion. So if you take that, the BAF escapees won't confuse your pets!
Also, Ninja aren't as worthless on BAF as people keep saying. My Ninja/TA had to replace a total of 2 genin on 3 straight BAF runs. |
Now, listen, okay, sure, maybe YOU can have this amazingly epic build with your Ninja build, and completely wipe the floor with anything you come across and have a fun time, but not all of us have the capacity to be quite as good as that. Sure, maybe that IS on us, but, consider for a moment:
I have a DB/Will brute and I can solo +1 x8 missions without even going past halfway HP, and I haven't practiced with him for very long either. At level 45, he didn't die once during a massive league raid on the rikti mothership in the RWZ.
Now, I've been playing MM's for a total of 9 months, and I struggle with all of them except my Bots/FF I made simply to see WHY it was so good, and I still run into trouble with it occasionally on more difficult missions set at +2 or so, but solo he tends to just fine. Granted, he's 32, so I'm not quite at full power, but..
I agree, MM's as a whole might not need a buff, but if Bots/FF or, as you said, Bots/Traps are so OP, then, yes, please, nerf them. But make my Mercs MM, my favorite, first-ever made MM, capable of soloing just as good as other builds, because right now I have trouble soloing anything past +0 x5 because everything is suddenly so resistant to Lethal damage.
The Mastermind AV is not an easy class to play, unless you chose the obvious Bots/FF/Traps or Thugs/Traps as people like to claim, and then you're golden. But I've yet to run into any specific archtype with such a massively underpowered setup like my Mercs/Pain has, the damage output is horrible and the heals just arn't enough to keep up with the damage my mercs receive.
Maybe I'm just slotting it horribly wrong, but I have unique pet-damage sets for each one, and a healing set on my PBAoE set.
And, lest we forget, AoE's DO deal double-damage to MM's, because while the MM himself may not be receiving all of that damage himself, his pets are. And a MM without pets is a very squishy target indeed, so, yes, AoE attacks are much, much worse for a MM than say your world-endngly powerful Brute or Tank or whatever it is you play.
I'd say if anything was "extraordinarily derp" it would be the statement that 2 MM primaries are "almost entirely useless".
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans